Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions

[Mona]

Here's an idea to go along with the education of good animals. Maybe just maybe we should start posting pictures of horse (not necessarily miniature horses) but other horses that have obvious conformation flaws and let people pick out those flaws. Lets spend the time to educate the people that are not sure of what is a good tail set, or shoulder or neck set, instead of just telling people that "yes you have a nice horse" however deep down inside you look at the photo and the horse has a low tail set and is "U" necked. I know years ago one of the horse magazines used to post 3 photographs of horses, 2 were bad, 1 was good and people had to look through all the obvious conformation problems and pick out the problems and then rate the horse 1 to 3 with one being the most correct.

Sorry, but this would be against Forum rules. It is a BIG rule that we do not post pics of someone else's horse(no matter what breed) nor do we do critiques on others horses unless asked for by the owner.

If people want to see correct conformation, or conformation flaws, there are many illustrations(drawings) showing them in books and on the internet.

 

[tagalong]

Mona - could members post pics of their OWN horses... that they know are lacking in certain areas (whether big horse or mini)? I thought this was what SmoothEZ meant. If I posted decent photos of my Icelandic geldings - I would be more than happy to point out their basic flaws, for instance. And have others examine them as well.... :bgrin

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

(even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show)

Um? Can I ask for some clarification on that?

Oops I am sorry... I meant National Junior Champion Over not your horse my mistake

 

[Mona]

Mona - could members post pics of their OWN horses... that they know are lacking in certain areas (whether big horse or mini)? I thought this was what SmoothEZ meant. If I posted decent photos of my Icelandic geldings - I would be more than happy to point out their basic flaws, for instance. And have others examine them as well.... :bgrin

: Yes, of course you can. You have always been allowed to do that.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Someone mentioned "sugar coating".... I would rather see someone post "honestly" their opinion with TACT AND DIPLOMACY and constructive criticism, than someone who is "RUDE" in their reply to the person requesting a critique. Being straightforward is a given but there is abolutely no need for "destructive" critique which has happened in the past on this forum and almost caused an out and out war on this forum and hurt feelings which is truly uncalled for. I find Lyn to be one of the most diplomatic people when it comes to critiquing on this board and I applaud it :aktion033:

 

[Ojai Minis]

I also see many mares being bred that would not be if they were normal size horses.

I beg to differ on this one. I have seen MANY big mares AND stallions that if we are going to judge, should not be bred either. I don't think this is just a mini horse problem.

I also want to say that I have heard over and over, buy the best you can afford and go from there. Well, what if the best that I can afford is only $500 for the mediocre horse? I have paid big bucks for horses, (not blaming anyone but me.) that were only mediocre.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Liz V.

 

[Feather1414]

Here's an idea to go along with the education of good animals. Maybe just maybe we should start posting pictures of horse (not necessarily miniature horses) but other horses that have obvious conformation flaws and let people pick out those flaws. Lets spend the time to educate the people that are not sure of what is a good tail set, or shoulder or neck set, instead of just telling people that "yes you have a nice horse" however deep down inside you look at the photo and the horse has a low tail set and is "U" necked. I know years ago one of the horse magazines used to post 3 photographs of horses, 2 were bad, 1 was good and people had to look through all the obvious conformation problems and pick out the problems and then rate the horse 1 to 3 with one being the most correct.

And for those that are new to the breed and want to get into the miniature horses, take the time to do the research and don't just jump at the first horse that is offered your way. For all the old hats take the time to mentor the new ones and show then what the breed is all about.

I think Michele Wesco said it perfectly we are all responsible for what we breed. Whether it is the next National Show Champion that is being shown or the next pet quality horse that will remain someones trusted agent for the rest of their lives. We are what we breed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :new_shocked:

I agree that you can not always tell alot about a horse from a photo but I can tell you most people can make a decision to either buy or not buy from a photo. You guys do it every day. That is what the sale board is for. And how many of you can honestly say that they have bought a horse from a photo and were 1000% happy with what they got?

I agree that education is the key to evaluating your herd for culls and I also agree that the problem is not with just the backyard breeder. I have seen lots and lots of horses that come from the top breeders in the country that I wouldn't pay 2 cents for. But I also agree that good training and good handling can bring out the best in a horse.

I didn't mean to start any wars on here but I am glad to see the constructive comments that are being posted and everyone has an opinion and they should all be heard. :aktion033:

AMEN!

I have no problems submitting my two boys for critiques and educational purposes.

I saved one (Peanut) from slaughter and I am absolutly amazed with his changes.

Then Dealer I bought for a performance horse and he is doing just that.

Anyways, if I were breeding minis, I can tell you right now I would be finding a nice mare, and then an nice stallion and it won't be any other way. I know my trainer right now ((not going to mention names)) bred what she considers a nice stallion to an ok mare and the baby really isn't that spectcular.

Her old stallion had nice movement, a nice body, but not only did he throw HORRIBLE heads, I mean downright awful, but he threw a dwarf and while I could tell the moment Tank came out that he was a dwarf, she was gushing about his "nice" dishy head while he actually had the severe domed head of a dwarf.

Anyways, I don't agree with her breeding program. My thoughts since I began with minis has been if you are going to breed, breed for the best and nothing less.

Another thought I have... which in my opinion is ruining the breed...

Breeding the unregistered horses, or say an AMHA stallion to an AMHR mare which produces unregisterable offspring and then selling those offspring as breedable.

I am not so concerned with mediocre stallions as I am with people breeding and selling unregistered stock. Even if you have no plans to show OR breed, you should have papers on the horse just in case. JMO.

I do agree that people do breed too much for color, heck my goal is to breed for a certain coat and eye color, but I will spend extra long looking for the perfect stallion with those traits to create a nice breeding program instead of just buying the horse I think is pretty.

 

[Leeana]

Might as well throw some of my 2 cents in.

In my eyes, i think there are two types of Miniature Horse people. Pet people and show people. I think for everyone looking for that Show horse, there are 2 or 3 people looking for a pet.

Miniatures are not just about showing. I mean yes, if you have the chance to breed 2 multi-thouthand dollar horses together ...go for it. Bring home them big bucks, but not everyone is breeding for the next work champion or buckaroo.

I beleive if your a show farm breeding for top quality mini's ....geld your gelding material horses and breed your top notch horses. But otherwize you cannot control what Joe Schmo next door who just enjoys the breed and hasnt stepped foot in a show ring before is breeding for. Everyone has different goals and not everyone is breeding for Buckaroo.

I am more of a show person and have went for that 'joe schmo' person to someone who cares about bloodlines ext ext.

We all need to realize that for every 1 person looking for show prospects, i can garentee you there are 2 or 3 people looking for a mini to drive, love and enjoy.

We all have different goals.

 

[shane]

Someone mentioned "sugar coating".... I would rather see someone post "honestly" their opinion with TACT AND DIPLOMACY and constructive criticism, than someone who is "RUDE" in their reply to the person requesting a critique. Being straightforward is a given but there is abolutely no need for "destructive" critique which has happened in the past on this forum and almost caused an out and out war on this forum and hurt feelings which is truly uncalled for. I find Lyn to be one of the most diplomatic people when it comes to critiquing on this board and I applaud it

I COULDNT AGREE MORE, :aktion033: I HAVE A STALLION,WHO LAST YEAR DIDNT DO VERY WELL, BUT THIS YEAR I FEEL HES IMPROVED REALLY WELL AND ITS SHOWING IN HIS RESULTS, THERES NO WAY WOULD I GELD HIM, AND HIS SIRE WAS AN IMPORT FROM AMERICA AND IS UNBEATEN AT EVERY SHOW ENTERED IN IRELAND, HE IS TOYLAND BRED, AND IF I HAD TO PAY £5000 FOR MY HORSE TO BUY HIM AGAIN ID DO IT IN THE BLINK OF AN EYELID,HIS SIRE COST A WHOPPING $24000 10 YEARS AGO, I THINK THE AMERICAN STALLION IMPORTS WE ARE GETTING THAT IVE SEEN ARE TOP QUALITY ,THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, IF I HAD TO DO IT AGAIN I WOULD IMPORT STRAIGHT FROM AMERICA, I WOULDNT HESITATE

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[rabbitsfizz]

It costs EXACTLY the same amount of money to raise a "pet" foal as it does to raise the next Grand Champion.

Why on earth would anyone bother at least not aiming for the top??

The best to the best is the only way to go.

NOT the best you happen to have.

And, honestly, the amount an animal costs only reflects the amount someone is willing to pay.

I'm afraid I am not naive enough to believe that because an animal cost a huge amount of money it is worth a huge amount of money.

Of all the vast numbers of American imports that we have had, I have seen four, maybe five that I would have really liked to have owned.

And Yes, they were quite high priced horses, but not enormously so.

 

[nootka]

Why indeed would someone keep perpetuating the off proportions and inherent problems of these little horses even in a pet?

I just don't know for sure.

Even a pet may at some point be asked to pull a cart, or just to live a long and sound life free from such things as stifle surgery or extreme dental work (as opposed to routine maintenance). If we start with the most SOUND and well-balanced horse, then at least we're working towards the best interest of the horse.

I'm not even talking about bloodlines or the ring, which have nothing to do with it.

There are thousands of pets out there with soundness issues, waiting for, and needing homes.

I am betting that if I had a thousand bucks to spend, I could find myself a pretty awesome and sound pet. If I don't have that to spend on a horse, I likely don't have what it takes to care for them.

I am afraid I see the problem as education of the newer buyers.

Those mass-producing sellers are pretty much there to meet their market when they come looking for the cute little thing and noone tells them it's not breeding quality, and they don't think to ask because that's not on their minds at the time, but then they think why not and have a foal, how exciting. Well, first they have to buy a stallion and wow that one down the road with the huge mane and wild color looks great. (his legs? his teeth? his parents? Questions unasked let alone temperament)

I KNOW: I'VE BEEN THERE.

Doesn't matter what you're breeding for as far as "type" and "type" to me is quite subjective:

look at the horse as if you are a judge in a halter class. Overall correctness is first on the checklist and cry all you want about "politics" but 8/10 times I'd say the judges are right about correctness and quality if not type as they all have a different type they like. The other part of the time, I just don't know what they're thinking unless it's favoritism, and it's fairly rare (favoritism), IMHO.

Education is the only way to get the end result we all need: a larger majority of correctly conformed and well proportioned little horses. Opinion is secondary and arbitrary. Correctness is not. I defer to many who are more experienced than I in determining the former though I will always express the latter and usually not very succinctly.

Liz M.

 

[Margaret]

OOps sorry Danniel, I did not intend for it to sound like that..I too appreciate tact and diplomacy in the way a horse is critiqued.. All I was trying to get across is that if someone is wanting a honest critique it may be better for them to get one thru a reputable member of this forum, via PM style. This way all the confusion of different opinions on what looks good, as opposed to what is conformationally acceptable is eliminated, and the horse can be truthfully evaluated.. I too agree that Lyn has a good eye on what are a horses strengths and weaknesses., and have sought her opinions before..

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[Tobey]

Boy after reading this I feel like I have to defend myself because I do not show.

Personally, yes I believe my stallion is awesome. Could he be a National Grand Champion? I don't know - I would love to have him shown but I don't have the money to show - is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Last year he was accepted by a very well known trainer to be shown but we decided not to send him because of the money. I take wonderful care of my animals, and just because I don't have more thousands of dollars for showing and traveling that doesn't make me a bad person or a bad breeder. I do only breed one or two a year and am very much looking to help improve the bred also. I cannot get the big dollars like those that have the big names out there. I don't think because a horse sells for X amount of dollars means they are the best conformation.

 

[strass]

(even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show)

Um? Can I ask for some clarification on that?

Oops I am sorry... I meant National Junior Champion Over not your horse my mistake

Thank you. I remember watching your stallion(Paco)'s class at Nationals. From what I can remember, he looked pretty good…that whole class did. Placing 3rd in the Nation as a 1 yr old is always impressive. Hope you are planning to take him again this year because he's one of the ones I made note of to watch at the 2006 Nationals.

I want to go back and comment on Jill’s post: From what I read, the point of her post was NOT to belittle anyone or to attack in any way those with financial limitations. Goodness, I have my limitations and I wasn’t offended.

Rather, her point seemed to be that there are people who CLAIM to have a “National Champion Quality†stallion in their pasture when they know all too well that they have no intention of ever proving it. Easy to say…Backing it up is entirely different.

I have seen too many horses that were implied as something that they aren’t. If I’ve got a horse that I think is “National Champion Qualityâ€, I’m going to find a way to get it in a show ring. For example: I’ve got a couple of horses that I really like at home right now that are 2 yr olds and have never been shown because of budget problems, my wife’s travels, and my constant habit of injuring myself like a moron. I believe that they could be contenders, so you can bet that somehow they will eventually be shown. Until then, I will NOT say that they are “National Champion Qualityâ€. That’s something that has to be earned at Nationals.

It costs EXACTLY the same amount of money to raise a "pet" foal as it does to raise the next Grand Champion.

Why on earth would anyone bother at least not aiming for the top??

True dat! In fact, Redi has cost us much less in vet bills than a couple of our "pet" horses because he's always in perfect health.

 

[Jill]

Thank you, Mike (strass). You did understand exactly what I was trying to say!

 

[shane]

SORRY I WAS GOING TO SAY SOMETHING BUT CHANGED MY MIND

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[Minimor]

Well, I wasn't sure if Jill was talking to/about me or not. I believe I said (not going pages back now to check, it's not worth the effort) that it's other people (who incidentally have shown at Nationals!) that have suggested that some of our horses should be showing to that level--I haven't been there so can't say what the competition looks like in the flesh. I do know my horses' faults & do know how to present them to minimize those faults but I wouldn't even venture a guess as to how me might fare at that level. Someday, I do hope to get there--surely there has to be one year where nothing else will go wrong and suck up all the fun money??? As it is, though, I'm not going to go into hock to take a horse to Tulsa this year!

I have to say, though, I'm glad there are some on here that can see what some--including me--mean about not having extra money for showing. Jill, from what I read you did sort of turn the 'no extra money for showing' into having 'no money' and then saying that meant that a person shouldn't have horses. That's all I'm going to say, because I've learned that some things aren't worth arguing over with some people. I have a neighbor that has money and two very neglected, poorly fed horses, where as I have no extra money BECAUSE my horses (and cats) want for nothing. If that means I shouldn't have horses in your books, well, feel free to think what you like. I don't give a rats behind at all. Someday perhaps you can tell me in person at Tulsa!?

 

[Jill]

I'm not trying to argue at all but no, I was not referring to or about you. And I am sad that you felt I meant people who choose not to spend extra money on horse shows shouldn't have horses. If anything, actually, I think there's a measurable number who will spend $$$ on shows but not cough it up for more important things. My main point is just what Mike understood.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Thanks Strauss.. for the compliments on Paco we love him very much. He isnt showing this year IMO he really needed the year off to mature he is a bit more high strung then the rest of my horses and I think needed some off time to relax - then again I have been told (and it wasnt meant as a compliment although I take it as one coming from a big horse background -not halter) that I can take the show out of any horse.. meaning I make them dead heads. Paco is far from that yet but is handled daily by Raven and he is even attempting to breed a couple of mares. I will send him out next year when he can go with a trainer who can do him much more justice then this show doofus

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But again thanks for the kind words about him and for even noticing him in that very tough class with all those very nice horses!

 

[sdmini]

What a lively little discussion this turned out to be!!

Sorry but I'm a mind your own business type of person. I ask for nothing more out of people than to feed and take care of their horses. Of course I wish people would do "up-grades" but I have yet to see a farm where every single horse they had was something I loved and wanted.

One of my best mares I'll call mediocre, I gave her a chance because I knew her background. First colt was a dud but by the time he filled out enough to say "ick" I had already rebred her for the next year. She was slated for sale but had no interest. She plunked out a very nice foal, followed by a stunner and an another stunner. So call her mediocre all you want...she's no longer for sale.

On the flip side I've seen stunning individuals that can not reproduce anything but mediocre yet few clamor for them to be removed from the gene pool...they just haven't gotten "the right cross" yet.

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