Traces...tight or loose?

[Katie Iceton]

Yep...and look where the tug loops and wrap straps are...in his armpit...that's what that horse is holding the cart back with...he is not round...he is shoved so far back because of check and martingale...he cant get round. Makes me so sad

 

[Indian*R*A*I*N*Dance]

I do know that the particular horse in the picture onequarterfarm posted is trained by someone who has many years of dressage experience and had been to Europe many times to train.That horse is engaging his hind end. If you look at a couple pictures closely all but one of the horses has loose traces at some point with in the time they were showing, particularly the breastplate, but many are also not engaged in the hind end.

With all due respect--the majority of the show ring harness horses are NOT working back to front--a horse that is engaging his hindquarters properly has a rounded back, which allows his hind legs to get under him, and yes, that does elevate the front end. However--show ring driving horses are not trained that way. Look at them carefully. Hind legs are frequently trailing, not getting up and under the horse. Front end is pulled up by the check rein and lines. Horse's back is hollowed--with a hollow back the horse cannot engage his hindquarters. These horses do not get the dressage training it takes to get the engagement and elevation that you see in a truly light, collected horse--they are simply made to go in a certain frame.

If the traces are not taut then the horse is pulling with something else--either the saddle or the lines. In a level arena with firm footing pulling with the saddle isn't a huge issue--the horses get by it seems. If the horse is pulling from his mouth--that would be very wrong. If the horse is pulling with his mouth then he is not light in the bridle, he is not collected, he is not anything except having his face pulled off!! Please.

No. there are not many horses out there that TRULY work from behind- I didn't mean for it to sound like I was implying every horse in the show ring does that. I am also not saying the horse is pulling from its mouth, I did state "They are not pulling form the bridle".

It won't let me reply below what Susanne said but- Clearly the car example wasn't the best... I just used that as an example for being heavy on the forehand. I am not at all saying or even suggesting that you should pull a car with a rope..?

Hmm...so, next time we need to move our car, instead of pushing, it would be easier to pull it with a rope tied around our waists or in our mouths? Or perhaps we will look better doing it?

 

[Katie Iceton]

If that horse was engaged and having impulsion...the traces would not be slack...impulsion and engagement means a forward movement...even in a collected trot. Also stands for proper harnessing, which in my opinion this horse is not.

 

[studiowvw]

Pictures being deceptive as they are a moment in time: either -

1. With the traces that loose, and the shaft loops forward of the saddle, the horse in the picture is pulling the cart with its mouth.

or

2. She is pulling to stop or slow or "engage" and there is no breeching to keep the cart distanced from the horse. The shaft loops are holding back the cart but it looks like the most pressure is from her arms to the horse's mouth.

3. In either case, look at the bit - you can see how far it is pulling back the sides of the mouth.

When horses play in the field they can do superb dressage movement without pressure and training - dressage is a human approximation of those moves. Horses can also be taught to collect at liberty, or with light contact. They don't need 40 lbs of pull to collect them.

If it takes 40 lbs of pull to compress a horse between the bit and the tug loops and raise its front end so the front legs are free to fly, there is no "correct dressage training" - it is simple mechanics.

 

[TMR]

Having come from the breed show ring after participating for 15 years and now doing CDE's exclusively for the past 4 years, I can see both sides of the picture. There are some (albeit few) in the breed show ring that do perform with rounded backs and engaged rear end which is nice to see. However, that is not what they are really wanting-think Society shows (hackneys, saddlebreds, etc) They want flashy front ends. Yes, most are pulling off the saddle, but it is in a very flat arena with very light carts. I believe many trainers are protective of their ponies comfort, however their are always a few bad eggs in every discipline and many amateurs and "want to be" trainers that are not always able to see the difference and try to mimic them. The traces are loose because that is how they want them. You will not see open tugs in the breed show ring for a reason (one being no breeching, but the other so that they can hold the shafts at a position for the saddle to pull). They mostly use wrap strap type shaft hold downs and have them tightened so that they pull off the saddle and don't interfere with the shoulders. Seriously can anyone actually think those thin little breast collars are for pulling? Now that would be serious discomfort. Now there are some that do train for the pony to pull from the bridle and thats another whole subject that I am not as open too. Hope this all made sense in my rambling, but just my opinion from someone whos been on both sides of the fence. Having friends in the society pony world I try to listen and be open to their training methods and reasonings. However, I will say that their is quite a difference with weight ratio from a hackney or even shetland pulling 150 pounds from the saddle versus a mini(and thats a low figure in reality since many of us weigh that much let alone the 50+ lb cart). Let's face it, even a small refined 42" pony weighs 400 pounds where as the smaller refined mini that we see in the show ring weighs maybe 250.

 

[Katie Iceton]

But the entire point of a harness is for weight to be distributed and for pulling comfort. Breast collars are designed to be the point of contact where the horse pulls from, pushes into to move forward (so if they are making them so thin they are useless, well then people don't understand the comfort of the horse and uses of the pieces of the harness) , the saddle is there to take the weight of a cart, as there is no rider. If the saddle is now taking the weight of the cart and driver no matter how light there is still pressure, and then is also where the horse has to pull from....to me that is improper harnessing and I believe probably very uncomfortable for the horse. I compete in CDE, and dressage, even though they are on a level surface that is easy to pull...I would never let my traces slack because my horses uses them to pull the cart! He can lengthen and collect just fine with the breast collar engaged.

 

[Minimor]

And as for the original question--for at home driving you definitely want the horse pulling from the breast collar. Think if you're going up a hill and he is pulling from the saddle/belly band--you could just end up with that saddle/belly band sliding back where you don't want it to be!! Could happen, if you don't do it up tight and there's enough rearward pressure on it from the weight of the cart and driver it's pulling--have it slip far enough and then you're in for a wreck.

There is a reason harness comes with a breast collar, rather than just having a saddle that is meant for pulling--and even if people don't use it for that purpose in the show ring you should use it for that purpose at home.

 

[TMR]

Katie, I fully agree with you. What is going on in the breed show ring is the reason why I only do CDE's now. I was just trying to not get into the usual their wrong and we are right war. Its really comparing apples to oranges, as it is two different styles of driving so I have decided to agree to disagree about training and such. I believe most any driving horse can go from point A to point B and get there fine. However, there are alot fewer driving horses that can go from point A to point B properly with bending, engagement, rhythm and relaxation, but how many really care about those things (except for those of us that are obsessed with that ever elusive dressage score in the 20's. LOL). The majority of drivers just want to go down the road and have a little fun.

 

[Jill]

We all should do what we think is best for our horses, and ourselves. Gotta figure this sort of site has a lot of people who are now or will later look for their own answers in this discussion.

Realize, there are not that many people. or horses, who can change the way it works. If you want to win ribbons and titles, maybe you do things "this" way. If you want to do CDE, have fun, "whatever", then there may be other ways that are better.

Realize at a registry show, you are wasting your time and money if you are not doing what you think the judge wants to see. At least, that is my opinion, and my experience! *I* already know what I like, and it does evolve. It's probably the same for us all. But when we prepare our horses and pay our show fees -- it is the judge's opinion we are asking for in the class.

There are probably multiple right ways to answer the OP, depending on what the goal at hand actually happens to be.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

So you see Nikki (onequarterfarms), no question is simple when it is about horses and what is right or wrong.

We all have opinions, some based on long experience, others on what they feel or have been told or have seen. You must decide for yourself what seems right to you and for your horses and how you use them, just have the rest of us have. You have been given some very solid reasons why it is done one way or another.

 

[susanne]

.

I can accept that pulling from the saddle is less of an issue in a flat, even show ring. I would never do it, but there are worse things in the world.

I recognize that AMHR and AMHA do not truly offer driving classes, but rather "halter in motion" classes, so I accept this and watch accordingly.

I also agree that some people do what they think it takes to win a ribbon, but I cite the example of Dorothy Whiteman as one who trains and drives correctly (in both the show ring and in CDEs) and won a championship at Nationals in 2012. (Not that she's the only one.)

But I will NEVER accept the idea of the horse pulling a cart by the lines and bit. This is absolutely wrong -- the thought that any horse owner could think this is acceptable is horrifying.

Finally...make the choice you feel you must, but DON'T suggest that this approach to driving is correct and that those who do otherwise are wrong -- especially when citing dressage as the operating principle. Many, many generations of driving tradition prove otherwise.

I do wish that the breed shows would offer at least one class that promotes and rewards actual driving, rather than just the current selection of "halter in motion" classes.

 

[onequarterfarm]

This is so educational Coming from showing APHA and AQHA...I must admit I am a show ring junkie...I love to dress up and prance around in circles...or so my hubby says LOL I have been riding horses for over 30 years, but just recently gotten into the minis...which I love! Takes me back to my childhood of showing arabians I have friends that do CDE, so she shows me the tighter traces and I have friends that do rated shows, thus the loose traces...I feel like I will hook mine up the way that fits him best for his comfort and the chance to perform to his personal best, which will be no more that classic pleasure driving in the show ring....it's just my personal

Again, this has been and continues to be THE PLACE for learning

Thanks everyone!!!

Nikki

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Well, while out driving Bridget today I tried something new. When going up a few inclines, I asked her to PUSH, instead of pull!

I was more observant of the sulky/quick hitch I have. Since there are no traces, I was trying to watch if she was pushing with the saddle or the breast collar. I think the quick hitch setup causes her to push from the saddle. I'm sure the breast collar helps a little.

I know she is not pushing with the bit, however.

As soon as she gets a little more muscle, I'll put her in the regular cart.

 

[Annabellarose]

Love, love, love your comments (quoted below) and I agree.

The more Miniature Horse breed/registry shows, videos, photographs, and discussions like this that I see the more I am turned off and I truly hate that as the Miniature Horse breed/registry show scene is one of the main reasons that I came over to Miniature Horses, as a breed. I bred a few horses and then I started to get more and more turned off by what I was seeing in the show ring and the Friday before last I gelded every stallion and colt on the place and I had already sold all but one of my mares. I started my (former) stallion in the lines this weekend and I am becoming more and more interested in CDE, etc.

susanne, on 14 Oct 2013 - 18:00, said:

I can accept that pulling from the saddle is less of an issue in a flat, even show ring. I would never do it, but there are worse things in the world.

I recognize that AMHR and AMHA do not truly offer driving classes, but rather "halter in motion" classes, so I accept this and watch accordingly.

[snip]

I do wish that the breed shows would offer at least one class that promotes and rewards actual driving, rather than just the current selection of "halter in motion" classes.

 

[studiowvw]

Hello Marsha

As an "improving" driver, my question is how you physically ask her to "push" instead of "pull".

I am feeling my way and I need to know details

As in, how you change the technique of asking, for one or the other.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I love a spirited discussion and appreciate BOTH sides of an arguement. Here's what I am referring to in my original question, and I loved this horse on the live feed...2013 AMHA champ 4 yr old single action futurity driving winner. Those ARE the traces, correct? I am still learning all of this

https://www.caseymcbridephotography.com/dspProofImage.asp?width=1024&show=2013%20AMHA%20World%20Championship%20Show\OCT%2003%2C%20THURSDAY\F21%20-%20Four%20Year%20Old%20Single%20Pleasure%20Driving%20Futurity&image=F21-017-13WCS.JPG

That horse appears to be pulling with the bridle. Tell me I'm wrong...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have looked at that picture hard and I have to say I can only agree- how can that be thought to be right and why is it being rewarded? Maybe the Judges need educating, then at least we would maybe not stop the pulling form the saddle but we would stop the pulling form the bridle- how is that even possible?

 

[Minimor]

It pays for people to realize--just because some people take dressage lessons and/or talk about what they know of dressage does not mean they can actually do dressage training properly. I gave known dressage riders and instructors to demonstrate a dressage type movement and in actual fact it is done incorrectly. One tune a fellow was rising a circle and bragging how well his horse was collecting and bending. Uh huh. The horse was overbent, dropping its shoulder and running along on the forehand, good job!

Look at the dressage riders who claim to be good at what they do....as they demonstrate rollkur!!!

 

[studiowvw]

Well, this thread has been very educational - now I look at those pictures of the little guys in action and I see:

- head set between check rein and martingales

- bulging neck muscles out front

- loose traces, and tug loops forward of the girth (meaning neither of those are pulling the cart)

- braced arms on the driver

- bit pulled way back in the mouth

So as I see it, here are the mechanics of this form of "driving":

You compress the neck and head between the check rein, the martingale and the bit, using the tug loops as the base, then pull hard enough to leverage the front end off the ground, therefore freeing up the front legs to have more action. This brings the hind legs underneath (or the horse would fall down), simulating collection.

I don't know, am I crazy?

The only training involved here would be to condition the horse gradually to accept this set of restraints and build up the mouth and neck and back muscles so it can pull from its mouth.

I don't accept that "you have to do that if you want to win" or "you're looking for the judge's opinion" or "if you don't do this you are wasting your time and money going to shows" are solid reasons for doing this stuff.

I think that show people should demand classes in real driving at sanctioned shows. Oh, I know! - "but that would be so boring!"

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I actually lodged a formal complaint at one of our shows and made the checks be removed (they are now actually banned) and the poor horse nearly fell over! It was sad to see but I felt a point had to be made as, when I asked personally and politely I was merely told it was too loose to be having any action. Yes, right, and my pigs are all primed and set to fly!

Couple of shows later this horse made the ultimate gesture, the only one open to it, and went over backwards onto the cart (no-one, miraculously, was hurt) - this was not at one of our sanctioned shows but one run under AMHA rules that allowed checks.

Once again the AMHA/R horses lead the world in lunacy...........

.......sorry!!! But it is hard to explain to other "normal" horsey people why some of the things they see are done.

As far as I can see, from having watched worlds and nationals on live stream, the show horses are mostly (and there are exceptions, it must be said) just taught to run away from the cart. The check and martingale make it possible to have a semblance of control.