Tight Belly Bands?

[Hunter]

Hi All

I am new, have not posted before but have been lurking in the background for a looong time.

We took three youths( 17 & 18), our daughter and two of her freinds from our Mini club to Texas (AMHA) for the worlds last Oct. They are fanatical about driving. They all drive and have been for sometime.

At the worlds it looked like the belly bands were tightened to the point that the horse was pulling by the saddle and not pushing from the chest. Many of the Tugs looked loose even when driving at a Working Trot. The kids were up in arms over this. They think this is done on purpose to animate the front of the horse. I don't have any answers for them so thought I would come to all of you for your opinions.

Do you think this was the case or was it just where we were sitting up in the stands.

Thanks

 

[disneyhorse]

In "show ring driving" a lot of "traditional" things are thrown out the window.

What you were noticing is not uncommon. SOME people believe that a show horse can pull from the saddle because if they pull from the breastcollar, it interferes with front-end action.

So, you may see loose traces, traces wrapped around the shafts, or other things like that... and as anything with horses it is up to YOU to use common sense and determine what is best for you and your horse.

Andrea

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The kids were up in arms over this. They think this is done on purpose to animate the front of the horse. I don't have any answers for them so thought I would come to all of you for your opinions.

They are absolutely correct in what they think they saw and the reason they believe it was done for. I have been told by exhibitors that if the horse pulls from the traces it will limit the movement of their shoulder and hence dull down their foreleg action. To some extent of course this is true as the heavier the load, the harder the horse has to work to move it forward with their shoulders, but given proper conditioning and time in the cart to develop their strength the horse can become strong enough to move in harness the same way they do in-hand. Time, however, is something the breed ring does not encourage you to spend.

What concerns me is that to strap the shafts down tightly enough to the saddle that they will not slip backwards, you transfer every bit of pounding, jolting, bumping, and movement from the whole cart straight to the horse's spine. I don't see how that is going to improve their movement any! OH!

I aim for an in-between adjustment when I show in the breed ring. I keep my traces slightly looser than normal and my wrap straps slightly tighter than normal, mostly to aid in braking without breeching. But I make sure that the horse is starting the cart from the traces and mostly keeping it moving that way, just not under quite as much pressure as usual. I also make sure my cart is balanced and comfortable for him and that the shafts have enough play in them to go along smoothly rather than moving up and down with the horse.

Not everyone drives their show horses the way you've seen, thankfully. And most of those who do truly believe that it is helping the horse because that's what they've been taught. I can hardly blame them for that!

Please don't be offended if you don't get many replies, the subject you've brought up is a hot button and many people may be wary to respond. I suspect I should have stuck to my first line and called it quits but I never can keep my mouth shut when an explanation is asked for! OH! Sorry guys.

Leia

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Yup, they're correct. I don't drive "that" way, but was told by an Arabian trainer to run my traces through the tug loops and then tighten them down to free up his shoulders. I didn't do it, my guy is Western Country and doesn't need the "big action".

Lucy

 

[Margo_C-T]

Leia, DON'T apologize for being honest, for gosh' sake! To the OP-this is yet another 'new one' on me, but I have NO DOUBT that Leia is quite correct in her response. Your young people have their priorities and their thinking in EXACTLY the right place; you should be proud of them! And Leia's quite right; I don't think you'll be hearing from too many of those who do this sort of thing....

All I am going to allow myself to say is that when I (very infrequently)think about going to 'national level' shows again, I remember why I don't. AND, I can't BEGIN to express in polite enough language for this very polite and PC place, how SICK I get of hearing of yet another way that people are doing things that range from thoughtless and inconsiderate, to blatently inhumane, to horses--Oh, but all in the name of "WINNING"...gee, WHAT could be more important than THAT????? Amazingly, the last several years I showed AMHA breed, I showed using proper BREECHING-[GASP!]-in Country Pleasure and Obstacle, where it would be PERFECTLY PROPER for the turnout--and [bIGGER GASP!], when my performance went well, I generally placed well! Good gosh, huh???

(Case in point, and yes, I know--OT--but I very recently learned that there are people who DELIBERATELY breed NON HYPP-Negative horses--QHs, though I'd bet it is also happening in the other stock horse breed registries which are heavily outcrossed to QH), often producing horses that WILL suffer the actual disease, and risking a horrible death for a horse, not to mention the possibility of injury or even death to a rider!!!!! THIS for the sake of GROSS overmuscling and accompanied by almost-certain 'from birth' unsoundness---and YET, apparently, these obscenities often WIN,big, at breed halter. I cannot even CONCEIVE of people who think this is the correct thing to do being included in the human race--IMO, they wouldn't qualify.)

Margo

 

[nightflight]

I have no doubt that you saw what you saw.

Hollowing out that back can bring the front end up in a sort of false collection, but to get the real deal a horse needs to be able to round the back and push up under himself with his hind end and free his shoulders.

The "false" horses that are really big movers have often been "enhanced" one way or another.

That said, we have wardrobe malfunctions with horses too, harnesses get repaired and end up different lengths, you get going fast and hook up a little differently, or that really spiffy new cart isn't exactly like your old one.

Show ring driving isn't traditional, if I'm going out to play/work I wear safe shoes, if I'm showing off I wear heels, but with what you saw - you dont have to do it the "right way" to win, but but if you want a good solid horse that will last longer than two years there are no shortcuts - and you'll still win, too.

Keeping a horse with a handler is Expennnnnsive. A lot of folks want winning driving horses in sixty days. To learn true collection and impulsion takes a lot longer.

That said, the style of horses that were placing well really changed after the second group of judges came in. Did you watch the amateur/youth driver, or the open drivers?

Edit Add:

For your youth - You don't have to agree with what everyone says or does to improve your own driving. Just from being there in that ring with so many great horses and drivers really tests your skills. With feedback from the single judges scores and the advice from people I admired - my highest placing run wasn't my best run, but I had the best go with my horse that I have ever had to date (and a really bad one too =/). Please don't get turned off because of the things you didn't like. You can be true to yourself and compete at the highest level. It's great fun to be in that ring with the best in the world!

 

[Hunter]

Thank you

I was a little worried about not getting any real responses.

We watched all the driving classes and all the halter classes. I think we missed the last 30 horses in Liberty, Just tooo tired to keep my eyes open any longer. We were there from Friday till sunday next.

The youth we brought are all very horse minded not ribbon minded which is I guess the biggest reason we took them. The wanted to show this year in Texas and still may. But they will do it the way they think is comfortable for their horse. My daughter has been with a Dressage trainer for the last 6 years and has learned everything from what a lunge line is really used for to the proper way to use a round pen. We show approx 8 - 10 horses a year and yup she does all the training. (Very proud mom here)

She received a "crazy" gelding for free from a farm her for payment for all the work she had done during one show season. He was dead broke to drive but crazy. He is just turning six and we have had him for three years. She will be showing him this year turns out he was not crazy just scared.

I agree it takes as long as it takes to train a horse. I am very proud of theses kids.

 

[disneyhorse]

Hollowing out that back can bring the front end up in a sort of false collection, but to get the real deal a horse needs to be able to round the back and push up under himself with his hind end and free his shoulders.

The "false" horses that are really big movers have often been "enhanced" one way or another.

I am just going to add to this... because I am trying to learn to appreciate ALL aspects of driving from draft hitches to park harness.

Hollowing out the back to bring the front end up is NOT "false collection" it is asking the horse to move in a different way.

Every "kind" of driving works differently. In Western Pleasure, Country, and to some degree Pleasure a round back and collection is necessary for the best performance. The "type" of action you are seeking in these horses should not be "extreme."

However, in Park Harness an extreme and animated way of going is necessary, you are asking the horse for motion but NOT for any speed and this is very difficult for the average horse to do (thus you do not see many entries). The proper Park horse SHOULD hollow it's back, because a dropped back will allow for more exaggerated knee action that you can NOT get from a horse with a rounded back. A horse with a rounded back simply cannot get it's head checked up extremely high along with raising it's knees high. But not all horses can physically lift their heads and hollow their backs naturally, and i have only ever had ONE mini that I thought with the right training could ever make a Park Harness mini.

I don't think that most of the Park Harness minis you see at Nationals are free from "enhanced" training and even some of the Pleasure horses... which to me is sad. If you want to have a breed that you can enhance, get a Shetland Pony. I am NOT against training aids, I am only against them in the Minis since the rulebooks prohibit that.

Just wanted to discuss this "method" in general training though, since it does happen and it has a real genuine reason for it.

Also, to tie back into the original topic, a tight bellyband may encourage the horse to drop it's back as well, which will add to the front-end action (but in a different way).

Andrea

 

[nightflight]

disneyhorse,

Funny you should say that Single horses don't have to have as high a degree of collection. It's a little hard to show at a collected trot without.... collection. If the horse has a hollow back it may be stepping high, but it's not really collected is it?

A horse with a rounded back simply cannot get it's head checked up extremely high along with raising it's knees high.

I Disagree. Can't we both be right?

Picture your horse as a table. If you hollow out the middle of that table the legs go further out from under it and the edges go up, yes? This is what you see with horses. The neck goes up and the front legs go out in front where you can make them go up and down. However, the back legs also go further out behind so you can't get as much push. You've got a park horse. High neck and flashy up and down movement. Not speedy.

Now, picture that same table only rounded up. The legs go further under it and the edges round down. Now comes the part with impulsion, or hock action, or getting the hind end under the horse. Push one edge of that rounded table further under it. Those other two table legs will come up off the ground. If this were a horse you could get those legs to go up (collected trot) or out (extended trot). Raised neck and collection or extension. keeping the energy level the same you can get more speed and flatten out, or slow it down and get more up. Takes a heck of a long time to get it to a flashy level though.

I don't think I've ever seen a natural park horse, and not all that many natural singles. I do see quite a number of parks in single though =/. They are beautiful to watch, but move exactly as you describe - hollow, not collected. A nice horse is a nice horse no matter what people do with it. The eye is drawn to what is flashy - the most animated! I think this ties in well with what the OP & others have been talking about. Just because you see it, doesn't really mean that it's correct. Just the game we play I guess

.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Well heck, if you want to get really technical about it what they ask for in the breed ring is no more an actual "collected trot" than the "extended trot" is! Not if you're going by the classical meaning taken from dressage. I know several people working Intermediate Level driven dressage minis and both of their fine mares are working very, very hard at developing a true collected trot. Remember, real collection should mean that eventually the horse can be asked to trot in place without losing the rhythm of the gait.

My horse certainly isn't capable of this yet, nor would I expect any horse in a show ring to be able to display that. It takes years and years of high-level work to develop that kind of strength. I just wish therefore that they'd stop calling it a collected trot!

I know, I know, nit-picking. Sorry!

Disneyhorse, I happen to agree with you that there are things to appreciate about nearly every style of driving. I LOVE watching the big draft rigs go and a truly well-trained park horse is amazing to watch. I don't even mind them moving hollow through the back for more action...as long as the horse is happy. What bothers me is horses who are clearly stressed out (not just turning on the Yaa-HOO! for the showring) or overreact with fear to every request their drivers make. It drives me nuts. For the show ring with the level surface and short classes I think we can get away with a lot of things that would never cut it out in the real world. Heck, Standardbred racers go completely hollow with their heads checked way up and they certainly achieve an amazing stride length! What I think is important is that the driver is making an informed choice. The Standardbred is amazing at what he does....but it takes an equally amazing amount of work to retrain him to bend and drive round and relaxed. The same goes for a show horse who has learned to drive by leaning on the check (and I know there are many successful trainers who actually don't use the check much outside the ring- good for them!

). If you never plan to drive them in any other discipline then that really isn't a problem. I guess what I like so much about carriage driving is that the focus is on preparing the horse for any situation they could possibly meet. They learn to bend because it gives them better balance around corners. They learn to elevate their backs and go round because it connects those hindquarters and gives them power without strain. Keeping the back free and loose prevents muscle soreness and a rough gait. Everything good carriage drivers do is designed to keep the horse happy and healthy for the rest of his hopefully long and useful life. The show ring's original intention was to show off the talents of potential breeding stock and as such once the horse has proved its merits its job is done. You can get away with a lot of things that over the long term would be detrimental to the horse's well-being when you don't expect the animal to be doing it for very long. A Park horse going around a ring a few times doesn't NEED much engaged power from the hindquarters. Nor does it matter if he wouldn't be able to negotiate rough trail without injury. He isn't being asked to.

I only hope that those who do ask their horses to do things outside the show ring will take the time to educate themselves as to the why and how of both harnessing and training so that they can make an educated choice. One style is not necessarily better or less evil than the other, but each style is certainly more suited for its intended purpose!

Leia

 

[disneyhorse]

Thank you Leia, that was an excellent post and said everything I was trying to say.

I have a background in English/dressage and because of the focus on LONGEVITY I understand why people are so quick to preach for "true Classical collection" but unfortunately in the horse world there are SO many different disciplines with very different goals and I love trying to figure out exactly how it works. Not every horse is built for dressage, but a horse built for dressage is not always built to be a Fine Harness horse, and not every Fine Harness horse is built to be a western Reining horse. Each discipline has it's own methods and reasoning.

I was just trying to educate WHY there are SOME trainers who will ask a horse to pull from it's bellyband in the breed show ring. They are trying to emulate more a Fine Harness horse than a Driven Dressage horse, since that is more the "focus" of what the judges are going to pin. Neither is more correct or ethical.

And that is why a horseman must always do what they feel is best for their horse and their goals.

Andrea

 

[R3]

I'm sure that there are people who harness their show horse with the intention of having them pull from the belly band to enhance their front end motion, but I would suggest that the majority of those you see with a tight belly band in the show ring are doing so because they don't use a breeching.

I have helped numerous people harness at shows, and been to driving demonstrations, and in all the cases they wanted the belly band and tie down straps tight was so they wouldn't allow the shafts to slide around, since they don't use breeching and the belly band is what is stopping the cart. I haven't heard any of them say they were doing it so the horse would pull from the belly band and not the tugs.

I have seen and heard of many horses that have issues because of not wearing a breeching to stop the cart, or for backing up. A show harness is usually very narrow, and in shows people don't want to use padding, so their is a possibility that the saddle portion of the harness can dig into the horses back and withers causing it pain.

I don't generally do the pleasure type driving classes, just the obstacle stuff, and I always use a breeching. I think it just makes sense since I know I will usually have to do extensive backing up, and I want to make it as easy and comfortable on the horse as possible.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I agree with you R3, but in that case people need to make sure their traces are still tight enough to actually take up the weight before the saddle does. The adjustment of both will end up being very very close as with tight wrap straps the saddle will not be able to move much before taking up the weight (i.e. the traces would have to be pretty tight in order to act first) but it is possible. For that reason I do expect to see showring traces draping a little more than you would normally see but sometimes it is ridiculous how far they are hanging down! There is no way anyone who hitched those horses expected them to use those traces.

Leia