Judges What are we going to do?

[Cathy_H]

Hi all. This is Lee, not Cathy. I have attended two Shetland/AMHR shows so far this year and I have a comment to make about the judges. First, let me say I have never said anything about any judge in the past. Well, at least in print.

In the modern pleasure classes, I saw modern type ponies breaking level without built up shows. Two of the judges in each show placed the moderns first and Grand. Then they looked at the other judge as if to say, What are you doing? That would be the judge who placed the class correctly by NOT placing the modern first.

In the classic classes, I saw a very pretty modern pleasure pony win the classes under three judges at one show and two at another. Since I know the exhibitor, I asked them why they showed out of class.

The response was; "I have tried to show my pony in the correct class, but the moderns keep beating me. Therefore I have placed my pony in the Classic classes and have started winning again."

If the judges do not place the ponies correctly, I am going to stop breeding classics and get me an "A" papered modern and clean up at the shows! Of course, this will make the true classic breeders have a field full of ponies that can not win in their own classes.

Who can I contact and complain about the judges?

If this is the way that the ponies are going, I need to get rid of my classics while there are a few judges that place them correctly. Thanks for letting me vent. As I said before, this is my first time. I hope something can be done about the judges. Lee

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

Ask for a judge's evaluation form at the show and fill it out right than and there. I would than contact Marvin McCabe, as he is the chairperson of the judge's committee and express your concerns to him.

 

[txminipinto]

Lee,

You're not the first to notice this. I have to wonder that if judges aren't reading their rule books and if we as exhibitors have to show our horses OFF TYPE so we can get points on our ponies, where are we going with our breed? We either need to stick to what's outlined in the rule book or get rid of the A/Bs and show by type only(personally I have a mare that I would LOVE to show by type, but can't.).

 

[Dr. Pam]

I feel your frustration. Like Sheryl said, fill out those Judges evaluation forms. I feel the same way about all the Pleasure horses in Country Pleasure. I haven't seen what the Rule Book defines as Country Pleasure win in a loooonnnnng time.

 

[kaykay]

this was addressed i was told at convention and there was supposed to be a special judges meeting to go over off types showing in the wrong class. This is so not right!!! Ive been told over and over that they will not place off types showing in the wrong class this year which is as it should be!! Normally you will see small moderns showing as classics and that is not fair to the classics. If the judges continue in this we are going to lose the classic ponies and that would be really sad!

 

[Margo_C-T]

I'm not usually over here on this Forum, but the subject line caught my eye, as I think that serious problems with judging according to the applicable rules are a HUGE problem, across the mini/Shetland industry(and I strongly suspect, across MANY equine organizations, sadly....). What Dr. Pam said,about the judge eval. cards-and, I would suggest voicing your concerns in a serious and organized manner to EVERYONE in any position of authority/decision-making within the breed structure. Be a sqeaky wheel-a polite one, but a squeaky wheel, all the same....

And, OH, is Dr. Pam SOOOOOO right about Country Pleasure! Though I imagine she was referring to AMHR in her reply, the SAME thing is happening in AMHA-and getting worse at every show I see....Country Pleasure is now routinely being won by those horses who can't QUITE place well in Single Pleasure-i.e., didn't take to enhancement, are 'green' horses who really BELONG in Single Pleasure, and the like--but who are NOT going in the manner(correctly) prescribed in the Rulebook. Country Pleasure is NOT where (tightly)overchecked, running martingaled, and FAST go's belong. I believe this came about because fewer and fewer NATURAL Single Pleasure horses were placing well(against enhancement...), so such horses migrated, en masse, to Country Pleasure classes. The super-actioned, often-enhanced,'zoom-zoom' horses SHOULD be in Park classes-but when that class was being offered, almost no one would enter it---instead, they'd rather crowd out the genuine Single Pleasure horses, where back then, there were more entrants....since Country Pleasure classes have been instituted, the same kind of migration has happened, with many horses that should GENUINELY be Single Pleasure horses showing up in the Country Pleasure horses, crowding genuine Country Pleasure horses out for the placings. MUCH of this IS the judges' doing, but one must also remember, they can only evaluate what appears before them on any given day...and when many exhibitors play 'follow the leader' in presenting their horses incorrectly( I think of it more as the lemmings blindly following one another--to their great detriment, BTW!)--then what ?? Well, better education about what constitutes a genuine Single or Country Pleasure "go" would certainly help-perhaps the breed organizations should be using the likes of some of the top ADS drivers, instead of only those with a background in high-action, enhancement allowed/encouraged, 'roundy-round the show ring'-or, those with NO real background in driving, to conduct their judges' seminars-as well as to provide real education for their members...?

Apologies if this seems off-topic-but I must say, I see these problems of judging according to the published rules as all part of the same problem within the breed registries--and serious one,at that.

Margo

 

[spazkat]

I believe this came about because fewer and fewer NATURAL Single Pleasure horses were placing well(against enhancement...), so such horses migrated, en masse, to Country Pleasure classes. The super-actioned, often-enhanced,'zoom-zoom' horses SHOULD be in Park classes-but when that class was being offered, almost no one would enter it--

<snip>-

well, better education about what constitutes a genuine Single or Country Pleasure "go" would certainly help-perhaps the breed organizations should be using the likes of some of the top ADS drivers, instead of only those with a background in high-action, enhancement allowed/encouraged, 'roundy-round the show ring'-or, those with NO real background in driving, to conduct their judges' seminars-as well as to provide real education for their members...?

Margo

I think this statement is a bit misleading. Its a bit unclear what you are referring to as "enhancement" but I rather got the impression here that you were referring to something other than a surgical procedure, most likely training methods. This perpetuates the myth that if you use *insert name of some training aid* you can turn a sow's ear into the proverbial silk purse which is just not the case. This also tends to cloud the definition of "natural". Shoeing aside, you can not make a short strided horse move better or "teach it" to lift its knees any higher than what it is physically capable of. Form follows function always. You can make the most of what you've got, but you cant give it anything it didnt have to start with. What is "natural" anyway? Is "natural" straight out of the pasture? Nothing we do to horses is technically natural for them- but if you are going to show you are doing yourself and your horse a disservice if you arent teaching him to use his natural abilities to their fullest.

The line between divisions has always been a difficult one, primarily because there is not usually a ton of difference between a mediocre open pleasure pony and a very good country pleasure one. Its not like the difference between square and round... more like color graduations. "Is this shade or orange more red than yellow or more yellow than red". Add that to the fact that people go to shows to try to win. When their choice is being a mediocre open pony or maybe a winnig country pony where are they going to enter? People in this position want to show... no one wants to admit that their pony probably wont ever win any ribbons because hes not good enough for the class he "belongs in". So they bump him to another division where there isnt so much expected.

I dont see how bringing ADS people in would help. People who want to show ADS show ADS. People who want 'show driving' show AMHA/AMHR. I think the answer lies in training the judges we do have. Whether or not they realize it THEY are the ones who define style, type, and in the end, who shows where.

As to the park classes, I would imagine that the low turn out is related more to the expense of a whole new cart/wardrobe and the hassle of carting it all to the show. Having shown moderns for years I can say that carting a viceroy around is much more of a nuisance than a pleasure or roadster cart.