harness and cart questions

[MPR]

We are looking at buying our first harness and cart.

There are differences on harnesses and I'm not sure which way to go. Some have side checks and some have over checks. One person told me that the side check is better because it helps the horse bring their nose in a little, where as the over check can make them want to nose out. Does it matter which kind for a beginner show? Also, some have leather that comes down the sides of their butt and goes around back under the butt. Someone said this is the brake (I guess when going down hill). I've seen other harnesses that don't have this. Does it matter?

I found a place in our state that makes mini carts. They only weigh 85 lbs. They've made thousands of them. This seems really light. They said it will fit a mini that's 28" to 36". The horse we are getting is 33". I thought carts weighed more. Does this weight sound ok? Am I allowed to post a link to the cart site?

 

[ibquackers20]

I have a leather harness and I must say although it looks really niceit does take a while to clean, while the others you can just wash or put in the machine to wash after every use.I use to use an over check but found that my guys prefer the side check better, they seem more relaxed. I now only use the side checks.As for the cart well that is the same weight as mine and my guys are 31 inches and 33 inches - it is very easy to move by myself. I like the fact it is light and very easy to transport. I guess it is just up to what you and your horses are comfortable with and how much time you want to spend on harness cleaning and personal likes and dislikes.

You will get many different views on this and it is all very helpful . Have fun and be safe. just my 2 cents

 

[Mnmini]

It all depends on the type of driving you want to do in regards to harness and cart, and personal preference.

For trail driving and ADS driving competitions, I would recommend both the breeching (brake) and no side or overcheck. Some would say to school with the over/side check adjusted loosely, but with long necked horses, I've never able been able to get one adjusted loose enough that it wasn't

"in gear" at least to some extent. I tap with a whip to keep them going forward if they are wanting to dive for grass. Use a kicking strap if you are worried about bucking in harness. For schooling, trail driving, combined driving events, I prefer a wider saddle and breeching. I also use padding on both the breastcollar and saddle.

For registered AMHR/AMHA shows in pleasure or country pleasure driving classes, the norm is a more refined harness with narrower saddle, no added padding, with side checks primarily seen in country pleasure, over checks in single pleasure, but no hard and fast rules. Those that go with overchecks, frequently also add a running martingale to assist with the nose out problem associated with overchecks. Of the two, regardless of whether the class is pleasure with a higher headset desired (according to the rule books), the overcheck is probably the most common, as it can artificially "aid" in getting the desired look of high headset. This seems to be the desired look in country pleasure as well, contrary to the rule book. Good foundations should give us the "look" that so many are after, but it takes a long time to truly achieve it. The checks and martingales are shortcuts, but are the norm it would appear.

At any rate, many of the harness makers offer harnesses that are convertible from overcheck to sidecheck, and even if you choose to go with a sturdier harness that will do double duty as show ring apparel too, the breeching is removable. We "get away" without breeching in the show pen, since we're using light weight vehicles (85lbs is about average for most easy entries..some are heavier though) on a level surface. Heavier carts(road carts, meadowbrooks, bennington's generally do run heavier than the one you found, more like 125 on average), especially with the way some easy entry carts "balance" dictate that they generally only be attached and used outside an arena setting with breeching attached properly.

Good luck, and welcome to the world of driving.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The best advice I can give you, since you are obviously starting with no practical knowledge whatsoever, is to find yourself a good trainer- you are going to need one- and then ask them all these questions as and when they become relevant and when you have all the stuff on the horse and in front of you so it makes sense.

I would never use any sort of check rein, especially as a training aid.

I would never drive without breeching.

If you need to ask the kind of questions that you are asking - and believe me, I commend you for asking them, then you should not even be considering trying to do this on your own, it would be dangerous for you and for the horse .

 

[MPR]

Thank you for the helpful information.

I have had a couple of driving lessons so far and I will be getting lessons/assistance when I start with my horse. He is an experienced driving horse, but I am new to driving. We won't be bringing him home for another month or so. I'll just be taking him on walks first. Then ground driving. We probably won't even drive with the cart until next season and will be getting lessons for that at that time. I just want to order a harness now so I can possibly do a little ground driving this Fall. The place that I'm considering ordering from, says they take 5 weeks to make.

So, will an 85 lb. cart work for road driving, as well as a few trails? Is there any advantage to getting one that is a little heavier?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

An 85lb cart is fine, wonderful, great. The lighter the better. Heck, I drive with one that is 27lbs! (Don't ask, LOL) If you were going to be doing something like combined driving where you were galloping a team through tight obstacles we might want a certain amount of weight back there to keep the wheels on the ground but it is not an issue with regular driving or a single horse unless the cart itself is very unstable from side-to-side, in which case it isn't a good choice to drive with anyway.

Seriously, most Frontier easy entry carts weigh about that much. It is standard. Remember how small your little guy is- at 33 inches, he probably weighs roughly 250lbs. Big horses are not supposed to pull more than about 50% of their own body weight on rough ground. For a mini that would be, what, 125lbs? Ha! Most of your heavier carts weigh that by themselves and then you throw in a person or two, their gear, etc. etc....Yep, lighter is better. Minis are tough but you owe it to them to make it as easy as possible.

:

Oh, and yes, you can post links to the manufacturer if you want to.

As far as the harness, if you plan to show and therefore must have a check the sidecheck is probably the kindest. Like many others here I take mine off entirely unless I am actually in the show ring. The rump straps you are referring to are indeed called the breeching and they do act as brakes to keep the cart from running up on your horse's hind legs. It is important to use breeching, and the heavier your cart is and the hillier the territory you're driving on, the more important it is. This is because otherwise the only way the horse can stop the cart is by using the saddle, which is often very thin and will push forward into their withers and cause them discomfort as they try to stop the cart. Breeching allows the horse to use the large muscles of their rump to brace against the weight and stop the vehicle.

Good for you for getting lessons and posting here! Never hesitate to post pictures or ask more specific questions, the more specific you are the better we can answer you.

Leia

 

[MPR]

What is the purpose of the overcheck and sidecheck? Can this part be removed?

Here is the link to the harness I'm considering. http://www.tripleccarts.com/html/our_harnesses.html

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

From what I've been taught the check rein is designed to prevent the horse from getting its head down. Normally that isn't a problem (someone mentioned tapping them with the whip if they dive for grass) but it has a very important (and hopefully very rare) use: to prevent them from bucking and kicking. Most horses need to lower their head to raise their hindquarters, and its very dangerous if they kick or buck in front of a cart. Hopefully that won't ever happen, but if it happens once that's once too many times.

That's my understanding of the question

May or may not be right.

And yes, they can be removed, at least from my harness. I've had mine off so far, but this week he'll be learning how to use it. We're introducing the blinders and then the check this coming week if I get my act together and work him daily.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

...but it has a very important (and hopefully very rare) use: to prevent them from bucking and kicking. Most horses need to lower their head to raise their hindquarters, and its very dangerous if they kick or buck in front of a cart.

I am living proof that this is a myth. :lol: My Kody levitates quite nicely for a Lipizzan-like rear kick with or without a check and I have several pictures of him taken from video when I first got him with his hind hooves ABOVE the singletree and yet his head is nearly as high. There is a much better and more effective way to prevent such behavior than keeping the horse's head so high that it cannot possibly lift its hind end. As someone mentioned earlier, kicking straps are available cheaply and the ONLY effect they have on a horse is to prevent bucking and kicking, nothing else is involved.

A check that is tight enough to keep them from rounding their back for even a crowhop has kept them from, well, rounding their back! And that rounding is an essential part of good movement in any discipline. Not only that but unless you have brought them along very carefully with a loose check (which is loose enough that they can buck, incidentally) and taught them to hold themselves correctly, the check will become what is holding the horse into a position they are not conditioned for and cannot find comfortable. Irritated, uncomfortable horses want to buck. Follow my logic? Let's keep the horses happy! :aktion033:

(Nathan, don't take this as criticism. I agree with you on a lot of things that have come up lately. I just want to knock the "checks as bucking prevention" thing.)

The harness you are looking at seems nice, although I would want to pad that narrow saddle for any sort of trail driving and would want to make sure the leather is indeed good quality and will soften properly. For a similar price you can buy the Ozark Mountain carriage harness from minitack.com, and I know that one is good quality as I have it myself. That harness is also Amish-made by a fellow named Mose Miller.

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I wish you had posted all that info at the beginning- you would be AMAZED at the number of people who do exactly what I thought you were saying you were doing!!

So, sorry about the lecture

:

I am so glad to see that you are doing this the right way, and that the horse is experienced- it is so much better this way round, he will teach you lots if you just listen.

In Europe checkreins do not get used at all- the harness comes without them and you would be frowned on if you used one.

IMO they are actually potentially dangerous as if the horse trips- which it could well do with you, an inexperienced driver, driving, and actually, with anyone driving, it will hurt it's mouth on the checkrein as it will not be able to get it's head down to recover.

Yes, you are perfectly safe to get rid of it, people in every country but America drive quite safely without one.

There is NO way a checkrein will stop a horse bucking, by the way, that is what a bucking strap is for.

As far as I can see it is used to hike the horses head up in the ring so that it has a slightly different action and higher head carriage than it would normally have- this is not allowed in Europe, I do wish the States would follow suit.

:

 

[MPR]

How wide should the saddle be, to not need padding. How would I pad the saddle?

Where can I get bucking straps?

 

[turtlecreek]

Hi!

A note about harnesses and leathers:

I've seen the harnesses that Triple C has available. They are nice harnesses, but appear to be vegetable tanned - I've found this type of leather to be on the brittle side.

From what I understand, a more desired type of leather is called 'hot stuffed" and is very supple. Also, look for pieces of your harness that are rolled. You will tend to pay more for these harnesses, but, what's it worth to have a nice harness that will last from the get go, not to mention comfort for the horse.

Someone else posted about the biothane (betathane?) harnesses - these are nice as they clean very easily and stay supple and are just as strong as leather.

In researching harnesses for my mini, I found one site that I really like. Here's the link:

http://easyentrycart.tripod.com/ronshorsetackcopy/index.html

They are out of Canada. I haven't ordered from this company yet, but, I like what I see in their harnesses - especially in comfort for the horse.

Just my two cents.

 

[Margo_C-T]

If you are willing to spend a little more, it will be hard to beat a Smuckers harness. They are now making a very nice betathane harness-I believe the Pleasure harness in beta is just under $500. Smuckers has a longtime excellent reputation(and yes, they are Amish!) They do have a website-just google "Smuckers harness shop". Their beta harness, I believe, would even 'do' for the show ring. If you get a check, get a sidecheck. (Rabbitsfizz didn't mention that in AMHA and AMHR breed approved shows in the US, one kind or the other IS REQUIRED by the rules.) Personally, I do not ever use an overcheck; if I use a check outside the show ring, it is a sidecheck, kindly adjusted, and utilized to help prevent 'grass grabbing' by my drylotted horses(not all of us live where there is always pasture, you know....!) - I often drive without even that. If I knew that a horse would never be going to the miniature breed show ring, I would not use any check-but, it certainly does NOT hurt a horse to learn to accept a sidecheck which does NOT come into play unless/until the horse tries to drop its head to the ground.

I have a student who has an easy entry 'pipe' cart that looks to be the brand you posted the link to-came with brakes(IMO, after 22 years of driving, brakes are NOT necessary, nor even desirable, in a (two wheeled), miniature horse pleasure cart.) We found we could not use his cart(he got it with a supposedly trained driving mare-yeah, as long as you don't ask her to stop and stand still, or drive away from her own premises,or turn....another whole story, however.) The cart came with one of those 'trailers'-which I would not HAVE. The cart's basket(where you place your feet) is very shallow-even I, who am only 5'5", have my knees doubled uncomfortably in it(and in the website photo, the MN one looks the same)-when training his young(a different one!)mare(once we were really to hitch her, I had him bring his own vehicle, so she would be used to it), I shortly found her developing a resistance to turning, and observed that it was due to the shaft placement on that (awful!)cart-it could NOT be adjusted(traces lengthened or shortened, or tug loops raised or lowered-I tried all that)to be any better; it was literally 'stabbing' the mare when she was asked for more than the gentlest of turns. I told him we would not be using it anymore-and since this is the cart that came with the other mare, I now suspect it might be one cause of some of her driving issues!

I have and use, and have, since 1985, a Frontier easy entry pipe cart. I have NO connection with them, but for the price and the desired usage, I don't believe you can find any better brand/make. If you want something a bit higher level in an easy entry pipe cart,I would suggest you check out Lignite carts,or, Eazy Ryder carts-again, all of these companies may be googled(Frontier Trading Co.)

There are many 'knock offs' out there-it pays to be careful, or to take a KNOWLEDGEABLE driver with you when you shop. Easy entry carts are popular for training/everyday/trail driving because they are easy to get in and out of, quickly-and if properly made, are reasonably sturdy and light(the Frontier is around 85 lbs, w/o brakes, so I have to wonder about the stated weight of the cart you posted-the one my student got was noticably heavier than the Frontier; even after he removed the HEAVY DUTY(?) brake plates.) Leia is correct that for this type of cart, that weight is about right. Depending on how you wish to use the vehicle(and considering proper strength of construction, of course), it is hard for a miniature horse vehicle to be 'too light'. Drawbacks can be the pneumatic tires(flats!), but there are ways to deal with that-no-flat inserts, buying metal/wooden wheels to fit one, etc. The shaft configuration is high draft, and doesn't allow much by way of real maneuverabilty for the horse-but these aren't really issues unless/until you get into fairly advanced, CDE-type, driving.

I have seen TOO MANY people end up with 'junk' because they didn't do their homework-good for you for doing yours. Like most other things, you will generally get what you pay for-for not all that much more, you can often get a much better product-IF you know where to shop. Finally, I don't recommend buying any harness off of ebay.

Best wishes driving!

Margo

 

[Sandee]

How wide should the saddle be, to not need padding. How would I pad the saddle?

Where can I get bucking straps?

I may be getting the wrong impression here. If you're as "green" at this as I was, you need to talk with the person that's going to help you learn driving. Hoping that they have much more knowledge about mini driving. It's so difficult to pick out something over the web by looking and then you have to couple that with not really understanding what you're looking at. Been there; done that!

Everyone will have somewhat of a different opinion on what's right for driving. I too was told "breeching" - a MUST! Well, road driving and practice on really uneven ground, yes, it's a good thing to use but it's totally a no,no in most show rings for minis.

Most any blinkers work but the rounded ones (a bit hard to find) look really great on most minis for shows. You definitely need the wires in the leather to hold those blinkers out. Don't get ones that have just leather and no wire. Also the thinner covered wires (I guess maybe it's rolled leather) don't take up so much space on the mini's face and look much nicer. I have both - one says, "beginner" and the other (finer one) is what most use for shows.

Some very cheap harness will have all black leather reins. The ones most accepted have the driver's half brown and the front (horse half) black. Although all black are acceptable except for carriage shows. As for the rolled reins or rolled harness it's just a matter of what you like. The tiny rolled leather looks really good on the smaller minis for the show ring.

Read the rules for any show that you think you might be interested in participating. After that it's a matter of personal choice. JMO

Happy driving!

 

[MPR]

Margo,

Yes, I see the difference in the amount of foot room. I looked up the Frontier cart and it says the shipping weight is 100 lbs. I hope the cart itself isn't that heavy.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

How wide should the saddle be, to not need padding. How would I pad the saddle?
Where can I get bucking straps?

Lots of good advice going on here! :aktion033:

Most saddles need padding when used with a two-wheeled vehicle. Really! It's just more comfortable for them as it is nearly impossible to prevent the weight of the shafts from coming down on their backs at one time or another. I have seen ONE- count'em, ONE- harness that I would consider using without padding on a regular basis and that is the Chimacum/Camptown Harness mini sport harness. That saddle is wide and more importantly the padding under it is just as wide, flat, and is graduated so it thins as it goes toward the girth. Plus the materials are very soft (especially for synthetic!) and it seems comfortable for the horse. And people around here still pad it! LOL. As for how to pad it, that part is easy. Every mini tack dealer out there sells harness pads, which are simply foam rectangles that have been covered in fleece or other material and have velcro straps across the top to secure them to the saddle. You can get them for under $10, cheap and easy.

Bucking or kicking straps aren't commonly advertised for minis because most people don't know what they are. I have a major "excitement/high spirits bucker" that nearly took my teeth out for a year before someone FINALLY mentioned there was such a thing as a kicking strap.

: Big horse people use them routinely and most would never consider starting a green horse without one. All they are is a single flat strap that is secured to one shaft, runs over the horse's rump and through the backstrap, then is secured to the other shaft. It is left loose so it doesn't interfer with the horse in any way unless he tries to lift his rump into the air, at which point the strap engages and the horse runs up against the weight of the entire vehicle and driver. Unless he can lift that, he isn't going to manage to buck! :lol: Most of them give up pretty quickly after hitting that a time or two and you can certainly take the strap off for competition.

: Many carriage driving trainers consider them a safety feature like a seat belt and leave them on unless they are in the ring. Others use it to train the horse not to buck and once they seem to have the lesson down they take it off.

I bought mine from Iowa Valley Carriage (google it) and it was $21.95. I know of several other places that sell them and I bet if you asked Triple C or any other harness maker they could do one custom for you even if they didn't regularly offer them in mini size.

A note on the Ron's harness- The harness actually looks pretty decent although I'd want to talk to other customers before I bought from them. (I'm half-remembering some negative rumors and I'd want to check on that.) One thing I notice is the blinder stays are just flat leather, no wire to make them stay in place. That's bad. The new mini pairs harness he has has the wire stays so I'd make sure my bridle did before I ordered it. Also I'm not fond of the design of the breeching straps or the fact that he uses the cheap and ugly Conway buckles. Otherwise it's got a lot of the nicer features though.

Leia

Edited to add: Shipping weight is always 20-30lbs heavier than the cart itself. You're fine.

 

[Peggy Porter]

I LOVE my betathane harness from Iowa Valley Carriage http://www.iowavalleycarriage.com/harness___collars.php

The quality of the materials and the workmanship is beautiful! Sandee was great to work with and very helpful. I ordered mine with buckle-in traces , side check, and all brass fittings. I get very nice comments on it at the shows, but don't mind getting it dusty or muddy when we trail drive. It just hoses clean.Very reasonably priced, too (about $350, including shipping)

Note to Leia- I have adjusted the tugs up a notch (or two- I can't remember) since this photo. Thanks for the advice!! I hope I got the photo right this time. Any other critiques? Big hugs!! Peggy

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Note to Leia- I have adjusted the tugs up a notch (or two- I can't remember) since this photo. Thanks for the advice!! I hope I got the photo right this time. Any other critiques? Big hugs!! Peggy

Hehehe! Peggy, it's always hard to tell when you can't see the whole thing, cart and all. Generally speaking that's a pretty nice harness and it's good to know there's another nice beta mini harness maker out there! I'm glad you raised the tugs, you can't tell from this photo but I know it needed that. Everything's fine but if you want me to be picky, technically I'd probably raise the breeching a tiny bit too and (ironically) pad the saddle.

Leia