growing out of AMHA, and breeding smaller

[krissy3]

I have a question about double registered horses (AMHA AMHR) My mare is going to be 3 in April, she is 33.5 inches now... there is a possibility she will outgrow her papers (amha)She is courantly double registered, and all dams sires have been very small, she is just big, for some reason.(long legs) I have 2 questions

1. when do I have her officially measured again to send in for the permanant AMHA papers? Can I have her measured at the next show in spring after her 3rd Birthday?Is there a special form that needs to be downloaded from the web page?

2. If she is 34.5 inches and out of the AMHA club by spring , and I choose to breed her later on to a very small AMHA reg stallion, will the foal automaticly be eligable for AMHA papers even though the mare has outgrown her papers? What kind of paperwork needs to be done to make sure a very small foal will have AMHA papers.(international) Because there are virtually no AMHR shows available , it is important for me to be able to show in AMHA... My mare was not suppose to grow out of her papers according to the breeders.oh well

I just want to make sure this doesnt happen to me again Thanks , and sorry it was more than 2 questions.

Krissy

 

[Riverdance]

Most likely she will not outgrow her papers. Many of these horses stop growing at the end of their second year. AMHA is also talking about having horses go permanent at their 3rd year now. I think it is supposed to go into affect this coming year.

There are many breeders who feel that just because a horse has outgrown its papers, does not mean the horse is not an AMHA horse. She can not be shown, but chances are, she will produce horses that stay within the registry height.

Then there are other breeders who stick by the rules and hand the papers back because she is over sized. If her papers are handed back, she is no longer a registered AMHA horse and any of her resulting foals can not be registered AMHA.

 

[krissy3]

Most likely she will not outgrow her papers. Many of these horses stop growing at the end of their second year. AMHA is also talking about having horses go permanent at their 3rd year now. I think it is supposed to go into affect this coming year.
There are many breeders who feel that just because a horse has outgrown its papers, does not mean the horse is not an AMHA horse. She can not be shown, but chances are, she will produce horses that stay within the registry height.

Then there are other breeders who stick by the rules and hand the papers back because she is over sized. If her papers are handed back, she is no longer a registered AMHA horse and any of her resulting foals can not be registered AMHA.

Soo.. the honest thing to do is have her measured at the show in spring when she is officially 3 . If she is under 34 I am in luck. If not I am s*ç% out of luck....right? all the horses in her pedagree 4 generations back are all very small 30 31 and 32 being the biggest .... so I am sure with a very small stallion she would produce a small foal...How do people breed an AMHA horse with temp papers, and register the foal? wouldnt they catch that at the office? If the dam is 5 and still has temp papers because they never admitted she was bigger and sent in the papers, the office would know this wouldnt they? I am not going to breed her if I cant register the foal with AMHA. Is this correct?

 

[chandab]

Soo.. the honest thing to do is have her measured at the show in spring when she is officially 3 . If she is under 34 I am in luck. If not I am s*ç% out of luck....right? all the horses in her pedagree 4 generations back are all very small 30 31 and 32 being the biggest .... so I am sure with a very small stallion she would produce a small foal...How do people breed an AMHA horse with temp papers, and register the foal? wouldnt they catch that at the office? If the dam is 5 and still has temp papers because they never admitted she was bigger and sent in the papers, the office would know this wouldnt they? I am not going to breed her if I cant register the foal with AMHA. Is this correct?

I realize in Europe, that minis are measured at the top of the withers like all other breeds of horses, but... Don't forget for AMHA paperwork, the mini is measured at the last hairs of her mane, so she could still squeak into AMHA permanent papers. [i don't know if AMHA shows in Europe measure at the last hair, or not, for showing.]

And, as far as I know, you don't need an AMHA official to measure for your permanent measurement for paperwork, which is how many taller minis are still in the breeding pool; breeder says horse is say 34" and sends in the paperwork, then just keeps said horse in the pasture for breeding and doesn't show it (where it would be officially measured). [i have 2 minis I bought double registered, both have outgrown their A papers, and a third that I have AMHA application for, that also outgrew her A papers; I have kept their papers (not brought permanent) on the off chance AMHA closes its books and then allows oversize to keep papers, I will then pay late fees to update the papers. Meantime, they are happily R only.]

 

[Charlotte]

Hi Krissy3,

The first thing you need to do is request that an AMHA Rule Book be sent to you. You can find the answers to most of your questions in the rule book. On the AMHA web site you can find email addresses to request a rule book.

As someone above mentioned, your AMHA miniature horse should be measured at the base of the last hairs of the mane. At all AMHA shows in any country the horses are measured according to AMHA rules.

When measuring any horse remember that there are many things which can make the horse measure taller (or shorter).

How long are the feet? Does the horse need it's feet trimmed and are they trimmed at the correct angle for that horse?

Is the horse being measured on an absolutely level surface (determined by using a carpenter's level on the measuring surface)?

Is the horse relaxed about the process or is he tense and nervous? (I have seen nervous horses measure much taller than when they are relaxed)

Is the horse overweight? (I have seen this add as much as an inch to height)

And finally, is an accurate measuring device being used? (my preference is the Sligo Stick, but an old worn out one with a lot of play in it won't give an accurate measurement)

If your horse is borderline on height you want to be sure you have the horse and the measuring area properly prepared so as to allow you to get an accurate measurement. To take a horse permanent you measure it yourself. AMHA assumes that it's members are honest and will list the correct measurement for the horse.

If your horse is approaching his/her third birthday and has been well fed all of her life she/he may be through growing.

I hope we see you listed in the AMHA Show Results next year!

Charlotte

 

[sfmini]

I completely agree with Charlotte, except on one point. If you need to read a rulebook, the entire thing is online on the AMHA web site so you don't need to order one if you don't need a hard copy, especially this late in the year. I personally find myself using the online book (PDF) most of the time and only the hard copy rulebook when I am at BOD meetings and we are discussing specific rules. The great thing about the PDF format is that you can search easily.

If you do want a hard copy, I would wait until the new book is published in February, as the current book will be just about out of date by the time you get it.

 

[Minimor]

To answer some of your questions that no one else has addressed yet:

Currently under AMHA rules a horse must be 5 years old before it can obtain its permanent papers. So, currently a 5 year old could still have temporary papers (depending on the expiration date on those papers) and have a foal that is able to be registered. The change to allowing permanent papers at age 3 doesn't go into effect until 2010.

If a horse's AMHA papers are not brought permanent, after the expiration date on the temporary papers those papers are marked REVOKED in the studbook. Once papers are revoked, no foal may be registered.

As far as the heights noted in the pedigree of your mare--remember that heights shown on the registration papers are not necessarily correct. Just as there are some 36" horses that are still in the registry with 34" showing as their height, there are almost certainly some 34" horses that are shown to be 32" on their papers. Regardless, it isn't necessarily true that an over 34" horse will produce small when bred to a smaller horse--even if all the heights in the pedigree show as very small. Some of the resulting foals may be small, maybe even most, but it's entirely possible that some of them will come out big like the taller parent. In some cases it may very well be that most will come out bigger, just depending which gene that taller parent passes on.

 

[sfmini]

But as of Jan 1, three year old horses can be brought permanant although their papers are good until the expiration date printed on the papers. Meaning and horse 3 and over can be brought perm Jan 1 or they can wait until the date on the papers comes. That was to help those with a bunch of horses that could go perm earlier than they originally planned for financially.

probably clear as mud, I am writing this on lots of meds.

 

[krissy3]

I have the rule book, I need to re read it . I have answered my own question by reading the back of my temp. papers. I must after her 3rd year but before Dec,31, 2010 fill out the back of my temp. paper with the date and new measurement and my signature and send it in. So no problem , she will be still under 34" in 5 months , when I can send in her papers. sometimes i need to read first , ask later. sorry. still learning

Thanks

Krissy