Double bred horses

[Country Lady]

I know this may stir some debate, and I do have a basis for genitics as I have raised other types of animals, we called it line breeding and there were "rules" to follow to try to prevent problems. So I was wondering what the stipulations are when horses are double bred ( have the same horse twice on their pedigree). What are the rules to follow for safe production and how close is to close that would fall into being inbred?? I do know that some people are very against this, and I am sorry if anyone gets upset about my question but would like to know. I do not have any horses that fit this, and I am in no way considering it, as I am not that experinced in horses, but was wondering since I do keep reading about double bred animals for sale, so I can be an educated buyer and breeder. Thank you!!

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I'm by know means an expert on this topic, but what I've observed over the years, studied and believe is when you start with two quality animals you can magnify those qualities. Look at some of the linebred Buckeroo or Rowdy - awesome stuff!

I wrote about this topic on my blog last Spring - wescofarms blog There's a good link to pedigree matching, which was a new term to me, but what I've been doing, without knowing it for years.

Breeding in general is not something to jump into lightly. It can have disastrous results magnifying bad legs, bites, etc. Not to mention if you have two horses carrying a recessive dwarf gene, well not a good thing.

This was not a linebreeding issue, but a genetic one, but I bred two smaller Minis one year, thinking smaller will make smaller, not taking into consideration that both had a tad longer back than desirable. The resulting foal small, but long backed. Not a dwarf (ran it past John Eberth and others), but a small long backed Mini - beautiful head, long neck, wonderful topline, straight legs/bite - but just longer than I wanted to see or use in a breeding program. Not quite a sausage, but not what I wanted to see! After studying the pedigrees/conformation on the grandparents, great grandparents it was obvious I shouldn't have attempted that cross. Fortunately the filly is in a wonderful lifer pet home.

In our herd we have a few double breds, some from half siblings, and what we've seen is the size reduced, quality stayed (yeah), but we lost our color, from a loud splash overo, and her tovero daughter, we have five generations down, the last three are all under 29", but solid. Callita 34"> Mardi Gras 33.50"> Calypso (half sibling parents) 28.50" > Jamaica 27.50" > Vanna 27.25". Some of our best crosses have been Callita's foals bred to each other, but it's been years of observing her foals and what she produces to see that. Just this year, we had an accidental breeding of one of her daughter's to her half brother. Gorgeous blue-eyed buckskin colt that sold before making it on our sales list.

But linebreeding, I've doubled up on Rowdy & Buckeroo with great results. But again, it was alot of studying pedigrees and other breeders. You do need to be very thoughtful and do your research. I've seen other lines attempted that don't always work as well.

You will have many swear its a bad idea, and I think that's fine too. It's everyone's choice to do or not. BUT in any species of animal being purposely bred, setting a certain 'look' or 'quality' generally comes from linebreeding. I've studied alot of dog breeders as they've been doing this longer than Minis have been around. The same goes for most of the small show animals such as rabbits, cavies, even mice and rats. Genetics is genetics and no knowledge is wasted.

You're doing the best thing right now, educate yourself - alot. I personally wouldn't hesitate to buy certain lines (I do research them), that are linebred or doublebred, but again it's knowing what genetics you're dealing with and the potential outcome both good and bad.

 

[disneyhorse]

I think it has more to do with the genetic quality of the horse(s) being bred, and not really as much to do with the bloodlines or concentration of bloodlines themselves.

If the individuals have far more strong qualities than weaknesses, you may be more successful breeding close because you are doubling up on all those good qualities. The risk comes with the weaknesses, because you can double up on the weaknesses, too.

I've owned a couple double-bred horses, haven't had any problems with temperament or conformation... but they came from pretty knowledgeable breeders who bred with those lines for decades.

Andrea

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

The rule of thumb I was taught was if the combo works, its called line-breeding. If it doesn't, its called in-breeding. Many times you won't know of a problem until a few generations later, and by then, its too late to get the genie back into the bottle.

 

[supaspot]

I dont know if its true but I read once that line breeding or inbreeding (cant remember which) causes a higher number of abortions /miscarrages and that many foals fail to thrive and die in the first few weeks from unknown causes,

I dont know enough to have an opinion either way

 

[Tenltraining]

WEll, we have tried linebreeding and have had great success with it. However I think you need to be very careful with it, and you wouldnt want to breed two individuals with undesirable characteristics. If you breed half sister to half brother, and that is as close as we have ever tried the breeding, if both of those individuals are excellent, and we also have, or know their sires and dams, then it may be a good cross. We have increased the typiness in the foals and many have gone on to be national, reserve, or national or world top ten horses. I think you just need to really learn and see the backgrounds, look for faults too as it can increase your odds of producing these faults. FOr Instance, if both horses are really long backed, or have an undesirable head, then your odds of crossing those two closely related individuals may very well produce one the same or worse.

On the other hand, two excellent individuals, that have excellent pedigrees behind them of really well conformed horses, you may very well get some really nice offspring from them. We have a double buckeroo grandson that is very prolific at siring pretty heads, nice upheadedness and type, and the really super smooth bodies. I think being double bred has helped in these qualities in his offspring. He seems to be very strong in these thraits he sires, more than normal I think. I believe its because he is linebred, JUSt My Opinion!

I have plenty of outcross mares too that are not related too so we dont strictly linebreed, but have tried it. I was very careful in the horses I chose to do this with. IF your not very experienced, I would get an experienced breeders advice prior to trying it. I believe that their insight could help someone in their decision whether to try linebreeding or not with their individual horses.

 

[MountainMeadows]

Any time you "double up" or "triple up" or use the same exact horse in a breeding program more than one you are going to enhance both the good and bad traits of that specific individual. As many have mentioned, it is not terribly uncommon to do this sort of breeding, and with a lot of thought into what the specific individual brings to the party it can really help a breeding program achieve specific results fairly quickly.

HOWEVER, as a breeder, I am also cognizant of the fact that a LINE-BRED horse is also going to have traits that I may want to change in the future and it is going to be far MORE DIFFICULT to break thru the linebreeding than to slowly but carefully breed for desirable traits over several generations and with different animals.

That said, most people really don't have the time to wait for multiple generations for this to be accomplished, so a nice blending of line-bred horses as well as outcrosses is how we breed at Mountain Meadows. We have striven to build a herd of horses that are very similar in style, movement, etc with the resulting offspring being of very similar TYPE, but not necessarily LINE-BRED. With this style of breeding program we feel that we can "tweek" things with a more rapid result vs trying to "break thru" the line-bred animal or wait for several generations to get what we are breeding for.

 

[HGFarm]

Line breeding does have rules, and there is considered a line between that and inbreeding. It doesnt go by 'if it works, it's ok'. Here is an article with some info that may help.

http://www.genecarrhorseranch.com/line_breeding.php

Look through some of the successful Arabian lines- and look through the Shetland lines! You will see some of the same horses in there five and six times! As with crossing horses whether related or not, you must be sure that the stallion will complement the mare and you would not want to breed any two horses with the same weak traits, as it may emphasize that even more. Quality is still the key here.

 

[Minimor]

In Morgans line breeding was very common--not just 'double bred' horses, but horses with 5, 6 and 7 crosses to one individual. One gelding I owned had 6 crosses to Ben Don and 6 crosses to Sealect....all close up crosses, not talking about 6 crosses in 20 generations!

His breeders had several full siblings, and they all came out very alike, very high quality, all show ring champions and all very nice horses even if you weren't interested in show ring achievements. A mere 2 crosses to one individual is, in comparison, very weak line breeding. Granted there are also many line bred (heavily line bred) Morgans that I don't care for at all. That doesn't mean the line breeding was a bad thing, it simply means that the breeders selected their breeding stock for traits I (and others) do not care for--while the horses are not at all what I would go for, the breeding programs that created them are very highly respected in the breed and the horses are winning at the highest level of breed shows. I also know someone who tried line breeding....sire to daughter...and the cross failed miserably. That came as no surprise to me--the breeder had no clue what she was doing, and had no real ability when it came to judging conformation. She was totally barn blind (something that you simply cannot be if you are going to attempt line breeding!!) and did not see the fault this particular stallion had, nor did she see that fault in the daughter. When you doubled up on that stallion, the fault came through so obvious that one had to be worse than barn blind to see it!!

 

[Becky]

I have a young stallion here with 4 crosses to Orion Light Vant Huttenest. I believe him to be an outstanding individual, with the quality and type I am trying to perpetuate in my breeding program. I will be breeding him this spring for his first Redrock foals and I am excited at the possibilities!

As has been pointed out, the closer you breed to the same individuals in a pedigree, the more aware you need to be of what faults may come through and close breeding can accentuate those.

As an Arabian breeder long before I started breeding miniatures, line breeding was very common to set type. Certain lines of horses portray a certain 'type' and that is what most breeders strive to produce in their herds no matter the breed.

 

[Tab]

The most important thing: be honest about faults. The faults of your horses and the faults of their lines. Having considered this over years I've given myself rules, and that is why I have yet to attempt it. I would say to approach with full honesty and very, very meticulous consideration. Two things to take into account. 1) Unscrupulous breeding. 2) Undocumented past, which is very common in this breed. Once you have no evidence of serious past conformational deviations or major genetic faults here's step 3) Overlook nothing in the couple you have selected for line breeding!

Minis like every breed have faults. Over the past umpteen years I have seen some serious faults in this breed. Because of these common faults, inbreeding and line breeding is a greater risk in this breed. Take into consideration lines that you do not know that produce dwarfism. Minis that have oversized teeth for the size of their faces, large domes, tooth bumps, a tendency toward cushings, poor coats that do not shed in the Spring, leg weakness, and bite malocclusions, even 1/2 tooth off, even certain colors that seem to bring a greater risk for uveitis. You see a horse with beautiful conformation and movement and so it's a common problem when simple things like bites and coats get overlooked.

I have considered it with great thought but I do not own one horse, in true honesty, that I can't fault on at least one thing. That is horses that I've breed and horses that I have purchased. It would be the same if I would have spent a million dollars for my horses. Be aware that this is a breed with issues, people who breed and are unaware of this are dangerous. Sadly unwilling to acknowledge the obvious.

My grandma linebred standard/smooth dachshunds and her most perfect show champion was sterile. (Perfection is for God.)

The first miniature horse I owned, a beautiful mover, was the result of a father/daughter breeding. He was a gelding

It's risky and only worth the risk if you are willing to fail and deal with the consequences of line breeding gone wrong.