Discussion topic: Starting horses at two years old

[hobbyhorse23]

A couple of comments on another thread got me thinking.

It's a different story for training a riding horse but I see no problem with working a horse in the shafts at that age.

I would not let my grandchildren sit on him, though, as I don't want any weight on his back yet.

So here's a question for discussion

- Obviously in the case of putting weight on their backs, we consider there to be a difference between what's okay for a mini and what's okay for a larger horse. Most people wouldn't worry about doing damage to the spine of a two year old QH by holding a child up there for a few minutes (the kid's safety is a different matter

) but we do worry about it with a two year old mini. Why? Because the child weighs so much more compared to the mini!

Does the same difference exist when starting a young mini driving versus starting a young full-sized horse? My concern has always been that it isn't an equivalent workload. I actually don't mind the idea of starting a full-sized horse driving as a two-year old as the only weight they are being asked to carry is the harness itself and the load they are pulling is light for their size so it's probably not too hard on their joints. Let's look at the math:

The big horse even as a light-boned youngster still probably weighs at least 600lbs, possibly more like 900. Their jog carts are probably what, 200 or 300lbs at most? Add in a human at maybe 150lbs and the baby is only being asked to haul about half of his own weight. Especially if this is arena training the cart rolls pretty easily and baby gets slowly introduced to his new job at a rate he can handle.

A mini youngster weighs an average of perhaps 200lbs and is being asked to haul a 75lb-minimum easy entry or show cart and an 150lb (often more) person. With a total of at least 225lbs, that's already hauling his own weight right from the start! Add in the fact that less-than-optimal arena footing can be a struggle for a small horse and our minis are often checked up right from the start and it seems to me that we're asking an awful lot of our 2 year olds. Big horses usually aren't asked to haul their own weight regularly until they're three or four. That is because when they do the horse is no longer just walking along with something attached to him, he's really buckling down and hauling with the resultant strain on young joints and ligaments.

What are the factors that govern when you, personally start a miniature horse? For me it's mental maturity first and foremost and then physical maturity for the weight I'll be asking him to pull. If the horse is ready and eager to work, bored even, and I can keep the weight he's hauling down below maybe 60% of his bodyweight I'd consider starting him as a two year old. I think I would still mostly long-line and work with an empty cart until the end of the summer but then maybe I'd hop in for short periods of time. Myself and an easy entry cart together are about 180lbs, less if I took the basket off and used a show cart. If the horse were strongly built and stocky I'd be more comfortable with driving him early, less if he was refined and immature-looking. Even with a stout horse I would stick to flat, packed surfaces where the cart would roll easily and do mostly short 15-20 minute works with big circles and such just because I'm really paranoid about overstraining a young horse. I've spent too long taking care of an old one with bad arthritis!!

I think I'd be fine with the idea of using a light drag regularly with a two year old to start building his muscles but probably not more than about 35-50lbs.

The more immature the horse in any way, the deeper the footing I have to work in, the heavier the cart or less ideal the harness the more I'd hesitate to start him before the age of three or even four. What are the factors that influence your decision? How do you decide? Of course in the end it's entirely personal and depends on the individual horse and driver, but I'm curious what you think. Is it the same as with a big horse?

Let's discuss!

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

I think that these issues are one reason that it is "acceptable" for a mini to pull a cart with no one in it, whereas it just isn't done with a big horse.

I feel that if you really want a driving horse to come along quickly, do as much Showmanship with him as possible. The more ground work, without any harness, the better. All of those cues will transfer easily to driving if you are consistant. We had a gelding that was shown as a weanling and yearling in halter classes, and my brother wanted to show him in 4-H. We spent A LOT of time on Showmanship, because "what else do you do with a young mini"? Honest, it was six easy steps from harness to hitch with that gelding for driving training because his ground work (walk and trot in hand, whoa, turn, set, stand) was so engrained. He was a solid two-year old when we started his driving training.

A lot of people (myself included in past years) are so "excited" to get their colts going in driving that they skip steps in hand that would make it a lot easier to train for driving. (That's not saying that every mini will be that easy. Also, be careful of too much pivoting on hocks.) Another two-year old that I started in driving training did not have as much time on Showmanship, and he wasn't nearly as easy. My other horses were older, and had more riding and Showmanship work, so they were "easy" too. Take your time and do in hand work. It will pay off and be a much safer experience.

 

[susanne]

My question is always, why is there any need to drive a two-year-old other than impatience? It's not as if there is some economical imperative that they literally pull their own weight.

So, I don't even ask if it's likely to harm the horse...I just wouldn't do it.

Of course, I ground-drove Mingus forever when he was beyond the age most breed show driving horses retire, largely because we didn't have a cart, but also because we were having a blast and he matured mentally by leaps and bounds in the process.

As far as physical, I would think that even a light cart would cause the horse to move differently, falling over his shoulder, turning awkwardly, not finding his balance, etc. Perhaps this is unlikely, but I'd rather be patient and let them be babies just a little while longer. What reason could I possibly have for not being willing to wait?

Actually, I think it's rather hysterical that I, of all people, the leftwing survivalist, would be so conservative when it comes to my kids...

But, hey...what do I know?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think that these issues are one reason that it is "acceptable" for a mini to pull a cart with no one in it, whereas it just isn't done with a big horse.

That, plus the fact that the safety concerns that make it so taboo with big horses are much less of an issue with the minis. The driver can walk right behind the cart and still have direct contact on the reins and a straight line to the bit, she can change directions without having to try and flip the reins over the cart and risking them getting caught on the seat, many times if the mini tries to whirl or back the cart into you you can physically stop them without injury if you see it coming...yep, it's easier with a little horse. It's still dangerous as they can get away from you with the cart attached and it's very easy to get run over or otherwise injured if the horse gets upset, but it's something I'm willing to risk in the right circumstances (something I would NEVER do with a big horse.)

My question is always, why is there any need to drive a two-year-old other than impatience? It's not as if there is some economical imperative that they literally pull their own weight.
So, I don't even ask if it's likely to harm the horse...I just wouldn't do it.

Why drive any horse? Because it's enjoyable for both of us! Until they can drive my horses are stuck to my slow walking pace, can't go out in groups, don't get to hit the trails much and often become very bored with the view from their own little paddocks. For me the only concerns are if the horse is ready to enjoy it instead of being frightened or stressed by it, and if his body is ready for it. To me most two year olds are not, but that is a personal opinion only. I was hoping to hear other people's experiences of both why and why not and if other people feel it's different for a mini or big horse.

As far as physical, I would think that even a light cart would cause the horse to move differently, falling over his shoulder, turning awkwardly, not finding his balance, etc. Perhaps this is unlikely, but I'd rather be patient and let them be babies just a little while longer. What reason could I possibly have for not being willing to wait?

Heh, in my case because my baby already moves like that and I'm eager to start teaching him the RIGHT way to move by putting him in long-lines!

No, I won't do it. But that's why I'm tempted. *slaps own wrist*

Come on guys, it's the shortest day of the year. Distract me from the darkness!

Leia

 

[BannerBrat]

[SIZE=12pt]What a great topic![/SIZE]

I know for the show ring people start their horses very early, but I can see why they do it. I don't agree with it or like it, but it is what it is & there are far worse fates for horses than that,

Right now I have my gelding Banner, who was consistently driving at late 3yr old/early 4 yr old; and if I was starting all over again I'd want a two year old and he probably wouldn't be consistently driving until he was late four. I want my horse for life, though they always manage to hurt themselves even when we try our best but There is so much prep work that you can do, the more I learn the later I want to start them.

But, to each their own. I don't have problems with starting a young horse that is for ready for it, I just would probably wait anyway.

Another side thing…

At what age would you roundpen/lunge a horse?

I think probably a 3 year old if they looked quite mature. And also working up slowly with that as well.

Anyone here a MSM advocate?

I think any horse I have would be on it…

 

[Kim]

Oh my gosh, how fun - we have a driving forum now...how did it take me so long to discover it!?

First, I must first preface my posts on this forum with the fact that I have only limited experience with driving horses and am certainly no expert - I have trained only 8 minis from the start and of those only 5 are what I'd call truly finished (well not that a horse never has more to learn, but they are quite far along) and the other 3 pretty much only know how to pull a cart - they are really not there in terms of true collection, etc. And then we have 3 more that were started by other people and I finished them or am working on doing so. So really, I have only trained 11 driving horses, and I know you certainly can't make generalizatons from that few!

That disclaimer out of the way, what I have personally found is that the older a horse is when it's first started, the faster and more easily they learn - and they are more eager. I have found that they really become only fully mentally mature when they're 4 or 5 or so, and this observation has been backed up by my big horse mentor who has trained probably thousands of horses of varying breeds in his long career. I'm sure there are lines that mature faster than others, but my personal preference is to wait to start them until they're at least 3 and if I have the choice I wait even longer. (My goal, however, is to have a long lasting horse that is sound and happy into old age - I am fully aware that many are breeding/training for futurities, but that's a different topic altogether!)

The horses I have that were started young, you can really tell, as they have mental issues that have had to be worked through - I think because they were started when they were babies. Conversely, the ones that were allowed to mature mentally before doing any work or showing seem to enjoy their job more and are easier to train - and more importantly, they don't seem to burn out with the show ring. I have had to retire 3 horses from showing because they really don't enjoy it - whereas my horses that weren't started until later in life still really like showing and driving in general.

Anyway, obviously there are exceptions, but if I was looking for a driving horse to start right away, and found two horses equal in talent, I would definitely choose the older one - not only for physical reasons as has been discussed but also for mental reasons. To me my horses' mental health is just as important as their physical health.

What are everyone else's experiences with waiting until a horse is older to start them?

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Thank you for starting this topic!

My major concern, besides asking a young horse to do something he doesn't have the temperament/mental maturity for, is the joint development. I wouldn't want him to do work that would cause any long term damage.

I've never started a 2 year old before, so I am anxious to hear all the experienced opinions.

Wouldn't the advantage of muscle development outweigh the risk if he were only working lightly and occasionally? Good muscle tone is a support for joints.

 

[Shari]

Hand walking and a light amount of ground driving at two years old, no problem. But I won't hitch a horse and either drag or have them them pull a person until they are at least 4 years old. Maybe old fashion but I want them well on the way to being both Physically and mentally able to deal what I ask of them.

Even though you are not riding, you still need to make sure all the plates are closed up before you have them do any kind of heavy work, which includes pulling a cart.

 

[MiLo Minis]

When I work with a horse I teach almost everything in hand first and then go to the round pen and then to the long lines and then to the cart and then back to inhand and so on.... We are back and forth, two steps forward and one step back all the way along. Although I have never had a horse totally lose it when first put to the cart, I think because I spend so much time getting them there, I DON'T believe in doing much driving a horse from BEHIND a cart - I hitch them and go 10 feet and get in. I am MUCH better prepared to deal with disaster if I am IN that cart than I am dragging along behind it and trust me, you are NOT going to stop a panicked Mini any easier than you are going to stop a full size horse. They may be small but they are very strong and can kick a cart to pieces just as easily.

I rode endurance and I drive CDE and pleasure and I can tell you that Minis, ounce for ounce, are stronger, hardier, much more durable and have a much faster recovery time than full size horses. Their centre of gravity is much lower than a full size horse's and their balance is better.

I assess a horse's mental maturity first and that you can usually easily do while working in hand or in the round pen with them in a matter of a few hours or days. If they aren't mentally mature then there is no question - they aren't ready to be started driving.

If they are still butt high and gangly they aren't ready to be started driving - if they can't get their balance on their own, how the heck are they going to deal with a cart? I like to see a horse physically together before I start them. Minis tend to be early maturers on a whole. There are the odd few that are still awkward at 2 and those I like to wait on but the vast majority of them have reached their full height or close to it and are really starting to come together by 2 and those I have no problem working with.

It takes a couple of years to get a horse to the point where it is competitive in the pleasure ring so if I start them at 2 I can expect that they are going to be halfway decently competitive to take out showing by 4. For breed shows you can have them somewhat competitive at the very least and, if they are naturally suited to driving, very competitive by 3. For someone who wants to get titles on their breeding stock they want to get that done ASAP so they can get the horse breeding - it is an economic decision but one that will blow up in your face if the horse is not mentally or physically capable anyway.

I have Willie here that was first introduced to harness as a yearling loose in the round pen. Started in the shafts as a 2 year old, has been nursed through arthritis due to his locking stifle and bad hock construction, and is still driving at 26 years old. I no longer compete with him as I won't ask him to back up ever again but he was highly competitive up till 24 years old and LOVED to drive no matter where he was or what he was doing he was always UP for it. Starting him young certainly didn't shorten his driving career and the muscle building helped him immensely when he was younger. I was always very careful to structure his work schedule around his physical difficulties and kept him in the best physical condition at all times.

Rocky was started wearing harness as a yearling, in the shafts at 2, in the breed show ring at 3 and in the pleasure ring at 4. Got bored to tears in the breed show ring to the point he told me "no more" but LOVED the pleasure ring and CDE.

Polk came to me as a 2 year old and I certainly had no problem or concerns with starting him at that age. He is going to be 4 this spring and will be out in the ring. He has absolutely no physical constraints and is very capable of pulling in just about any conditions.

Ari on the other hand, who I was dying to get in harness, is only now, at 5 years old, ready to begin his career. He was both mentally and physically much too young at 2 or 3 to even think about putting him in the shafts. As a 4 year old I started working with him VERY slowly and he is coming along really well.

My mare Dream was both physically and mentally mature at 2 and was started very slowly in harness. She doesn't have the mind for driving that I like to see although she really does seem to enjoy it. She was started young, had a short, albeit late, career in the show ring at 5 years old and has been retired young. I will get her out occasionally to see how things are going with her but I have my doubts that she will ever change.

I am only talking about some of my own personal horses here but I could go on and on and on.......

about horses I have worked with over the years. My point is I guess that EVERY horse is different and as long as you don't make a blanket decision for all of them, you can start a horse at 2. The important thing is to be able to recognize whether or not your horse is ready for it.

 

[susanne]

Kim, I'm glad you found your way in here, although I have to laugh at your disclaimer -- your experience and your successes are nothing to sneeze at (unless you have a cold, of course). As I've said before, you were the one who originally inspired me to get Mingus driving, so I look forward to your input!

I was hoping to hear other people's experiences of both why and why not and if other people feel it's different for a mini or big horse.

Sorry about that, Leia -- I missed the part about you wanting only to hear from those with x amount of experience in specific areas, lol.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We decide by how mature they are. We have several horses started right now: two year old stallion, just being worked in the round pen; 2 three year old geldings in the round pen with bitting rigs; nine year old former stallion

in the round pen with bitting rig and ground driven. We also have a 2 year old filly we want to drive, but she is in no way mature enough to even think about it right now. Plus we have two "new" geldings that are 2YOs that will be started sometime- but there aren't enough hours in the day and we don't have an lighted arena, so.... their time will come.

Lucy

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I was hoping to hear other people's experiences of both why and why not and if other people feel it's different for a mini or big horse.

Sorry about that, Leia -- I missed the part about you wanting only to hear from those with x amount of experience in specific areas, lol.

Why do I get the feeling I'm always putting my foot in it with you recently?

All I said was I wanted to hear the thoughts of people other than myself on those questions. How on earth does that rule you out or specify how experienced the people answering must be??

Jeesh.

I'm enjoying the answers everyone, keep them coming!

Leia

 

[Minimor]

We always started our Morgans in harness at age 2. The Minis we don't. Initially we did do some ground work (harness on, long lining) with 2 year olds. Now we haven't been-we have enough older ones to work with that we can just let the 2 year olds grow up an extra year before they get their turn. 2 year olds here will longe just enough to know how to go around in a circle and understand 'walk' 'trot' and 'whoa' and that's about it. I don't believe in driving the 2 year olds very much. As Leia said, they are smaller & are pulling a greater amount of weight in proportion to their own weight. If I were to hitch a 2 year old Mini it would be just to lead him around the arena a couple times while someone else rides in the cart & drives--there would be no 20 min. (or longer) drives in the arena and no going down the road.

While our carts do pull easy, it does still take some amount of amount of effort to pull a cart & driver for any length of time, and I just don't believe that two year old Mini legs need that sort of stress.

 

[Jill]

I didn't read through the whole OP but I do have experience as someone who has owned driving horses since 1997. Most of my driving minis have been lightly started as 2yo's and time permitting, horse maturity where we want it, that has worked well and is something I would look to do in the future, too.

 

[targetsmom]

I wonder how many pinto people will be reading this??? I commonly show against 2 year olds in the Pinto Show ring, in the regular driving classes. So they must have been started as yearlings and hooked in the spring at 2, and who knows how much experience they have... If I know it is a 2 year old, I try to stay away.

My experience is also limited, but the idea was to start ground driving the fall when they were 2, and hook the next spring when they were 3. But my horses have apparently not read the plan. Or maybe it is just that I listen to what they are telling me! The first one that I started ground driving in 2004 has STILL not been hooked and probably never will be (Cowboy, the too spooky one). The next one (Princess) figured out an evasion when we went to hook her in the spring when she was 3, so we spent another 3 months ground drivng. In the meantime, we started another mare, Ruby, also 3, and she went from ground driving that spring, to hooked before Princess. She seemed absolutely thrilled to have a job to do. Now I have both of them driving reliably (they are 5 now) so when I started the stallion in the fall when he was 2, I was in no hurry, and he just got hooked this year at 4. I also have a 4th one hooked (at the age of 10) and there isn't time to drive them all!!

 

[Kendra]

I've started horses in the cart at two. Generally just introduced the basics (walk, trot, whoa) in cart in the fall of their two year old year, then turned them out for the winter, starting their "real" work in the spring of their three year old year.

I think the individual horse's maturity has a lot more to do with it than their age. I have a series of "steps" I go through, and if they aren't ready to move on, we don't until they are. And if we do move on and it then appears the next stage was too much for them, we go back. Some horses can progress to pulling the cart in a matter of a couple weeks (please note, I said progress to pulling the cart, that doesn't make them finished driving horses), other's need years of ground work to get to that point, and it has very little to do with their age in most cases.

My current driving horse, Hawk, was still working on his halter breaking as a two year old (despite consistant work since he was weaned), and there was very little point in moving on to driving training until he caught on! George has literally years of ground driving behind him, and I plan to do more before putting him back in the cart this spring, because he's a fruit loop, but now 7 years old, and has hopefully gained some maturity. Duke drove only in a pair with Zac for the first couple years, because he could not seem to figure out where his feet were when he had to pull the cart on his own, and he was a big, strong four year old at the time. But Whitey - Whitey was a somewhat weedy three year old, and took to his driving training like he was born knowing what to do, worked through all the steps in record time and was instantly one of those rare horses that moves better in harness than at liberty.

Do I think all horses should be pulling a cart at 2? No. Do I think that hooking a horse at two for a 10 minute training jaunt on level ground is going to hurt them? No.

 

[Minxiesmom]

This is a great topic! It is especially appropriate for me because I have a coming two year old gelding that will be my driving horse. I agree that the more inhand work they are introduced to, the more they will be prepared for their job. I have to be patient with my training process and not push Elvis to much. He already long lines from the halter. We have even walked and jogged down the road on the long lines. He exibited the usual hesitation from being young and a little timid, but I was thrilled at how well he went.

Coming from the Qtr horse world, I have always been used to starting young horses as two year olds. After the internet came into my life, and exposed me to a whole world of trainers from every disipline, I have considered all reasoning that has been presented already in this discussion. My take on it, is you have to read your horse. Duh! If they can take the pressure and seem to enjoy the attention, take them as far as good sense tell you.

I think I will stop short of actually gettting in the cart and having him pull me around as a two year old, because his body is not ready to handle that kind of weight. January of his three year old year, if he continues as he is, he will go to the trainer's to actually begin his driving career. But in the mean time, he will be ground driven and long lined. He will learn the pressure of showing at halter and will be introduced to inhand obstacles. He will have an entire year of being a horse in training. Not long bouts of it, only as long as his attention span will handle it.

I am so lucky that this colt really loves any kind of attention and is a very quick learner. I forsee his training to be very easy.

 

[RhineStone]

On the other hand, I have found that a bit older horses with too much pasture time are also more difficult to train. It's like they say, " I have lived a life of leisure so far, why do I have to work now?"

They have to develop a work ethic before they can really progress.

I think the best scenario is when the babies are handled from day one (or as soon as possible), and have "lessons" consistently. Then, driving training can begin when they seem to be done with the flaky, playful attitudes. That time is sooner for some than others.

ADS rules say that CDE horses have to be at least 4 years old. I think that is a good rule of thumb for driving of that caliber.

On another thought, I can see "babying" our minis when they are young, but it drives me crazy when people baby them otherwise. For example, assuming that minis can't do something because they are "too little". :arg! (Yes, there are circumstances that affect minis, such as too deep a surface, etc.) That is one good reason that minis can have such a credibility problem with the big horse owners, because some think they are "too cute" to be taken as serious performance horses! Except in the case of overfacing minis, quit babying them! If they are too small to be driven, don't! It makes it harder for the rest of us with athletic minis!

 

[disneyhorse]

I am sort of in-between... I think it is harder to train an "older" horse (over four) but I think there is also no need to rush a youngster as they are not always physically and mentally mature.

Because I do like to show my minis and Shetlands, I think it is NOT the norm to consider the horse but to "go with the Industry" because heck, you can only show in those Futurity classes when they are three years old! No other option! So, because many of my horses are Futurity nominated, I do start them with just enough time to make a safe driving horse but can show at Nationals in the cart. I have waited until horses were four to start though, because they were not physically or mentally ready.

Usually I spend their two-year-old year learning to wear tack/bridle, bitting rig, and then ground driving starting in October. From October to December they ground drive and work in the lines.

January 1st is the EARLIEST I will consider putting any horse (in their three-year-old year) from mini to draft in a cart. And even then, the first month is spent either being led with the cart on, or being driven for five minutes at the most. Just to have good experiences hooking and unhooking. If they need more time, then they get it, I will not rush training.

My colt, he will be three this coming May, is following my tradition and is currently gearing up to meet the cart (January 1st is coming up soon!). I do have him Futurity nominated and would like the option of showing him in driving if possible.

But only he will tell me if he is ready!

Andrea

 

[BannerBrat]

[SIZE=12pt]My thought is with starting an older horse is that you don't just leave them be til they're 4, though I don't think that's horrible at all.

[/SIZE]

But from the time they're younger you do prep work. I really don't think you can run out of things to do.

I just love the process of working with horses.

Really interesting responses here guys.