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LostInOz

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O.K. I admit. I took a look at the mini nationals show prize list for the first time ever today (after 5+ years in Shetlands) I never had an interest in Minis - to each his own. Nothing against them, they are cute, just not for me, as I am bigger so want a bigger pony. I have always wondered what the big "fight" between mini and Shetland people is about - there seems to be a lot of animosity - but that's another thread.

My question is: Why isn't the Shetland Congress patterned more after the Mini Nationals?

Nationals Vs. Congress:

Why doesn't the Congress have all the youth classes on the first 3 days?

Why doesn't the Congress have its show in a cooler time of year?

Why doesn't the Congress have vendor donations of tack, harness, show cart, and more?

Why doesn't the Congress have $375 Stake classes?

Why doesn't the Congress have $1000 Incentive classes?

LOOK! The stallion halter championship is a few hours after the qualifying classes, so the horses don't come into their championship class fried mentally.

I don't see where the entry fees are all that outrageous either.

These are all the basic things that Shetland people are crying for, and the Minis have, so why not???

They ARE the same registry, right? If the Congress were to "UPGRADE" and just COPY the Nationals to be like the nationals, wouldn't that improve the entries and therefore the $$$ taken in?

I mean, this looks like a real national level show. Since it is the same show management, then obviously ASPC is capable of putting on a National level show (sorry, Congress is NOT)

So where is the downfall? What happened to cause such a separation of TYPE of shows? Couldn't the Congress copy the Nationals?

So I guess I'm asking, WHO DOES THE CONGRESS SHOW SCHEDULE AND HOW CAN I BE PART OF IT???

because I want a CHANGE!
 
All your answers are pretty simple... MONEY it all comes down to money and the amount of horses/ponies attending the show dictate the money.

It is great all these people want more and more for Congress and it would be wonderful. However I think the key is to increase the ASPC shows locally and Nationally and then ask for even more.

You can not compare the difference in shows as you can not compare 1700 horses to 500 two totally different things IMO

Without starting the debate on ASPC/R horses I think a huge key for ASPC is to figure out how to get those same horses to not only show AMHR but to get to the ASPC shows as well. The more ponies show the more shows offer classes- the larger the classes locally consistently the larger the Congress classes the larger the Congress classes the more $ can be put back into it...
 
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Compare the class lists of the ASPC shows in Area 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 to the Congress class list - what do you see? Tons of classes that are offered locally but never offered at Congress. In my opinion the number one way to increase entries at Congress - OFFER ALL THE CLASSES AVAILABLE just like is done at Nationals. If the current Congress schedule was done smarter the show wouldn't even have be any longer. I know a number of people who don't show at Congress because it is pointless for them to do so as the classes they are running top in the All Star's in aren't even offered at Congress!

Personally, I have a HUGE problem with the two shows not being equal in offerings, prizes, etc. as we are one club and number of horses attending a show should not effect how one division or registry is treated over another. It is time for Congress to be treated like the national show it is. There are tons of things that are done for Nationals that are not done for Congress. If you show at Nationals you get something other than just a red ribbon for reserve, neck ribbons are awarded to class champions, there is an exhibitor dinner, every optional class is available - why shouldn't you get those things at Congress? Did Nationals grow because it limited its class list and prizes? NO it grew because more and more classes and prizes were offered by the club!

Enough of the nickle and dime mentality! Yes we need to be fiscally responsible but we do not need to be cheap!
 
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Lewella, I don't care if the Congress has trophy's nine feet tall and three thousand classes are added, just don't dip into my pockets to get the money for it. I don't ask someone else to pay my way and I don't see why some Shetland people think that it is okay to do so. Perhaps they have gotten so used to doing it. I am not political, but I know one thing, if you are going to dance, you have to pay the fiddler.

Perhaps there are so many classes at the Area shows, because the miniatures are there to support the shows. Just when I thought nothing could rile me up again. I guess money does it.

And also Nationals grew because we came and promoted our own horses instead of expecting some one else to do it for us. Renee LaBarre Reiten
 
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LaVern I agree. I think before Congress can demand more money being spent first they need to find a permanent location- quit the threat of boycotting locations- and actually be close to breaking even when those things happen then sure put a bit more money into it

We all want nice things and paybacks and nice awards but priorites have to be to bring all those R/ASPC ponies back into the Shetland ring and find an agreeable home for the show.

I to want Congress to grow and be successful but before we throw money into the pit I think there are a couple things that need to happen first.

As far as awards and trophies maybe look to the ASPC members to help with those. I know quite a few really stepped up to the plate this year and in years past.

We all want nice things and paybacks and nice awards but priorites have to be to bring all those R/ASPC ponies back into the Shetland ring and work on the tantrums to stop
 
I agree with Lewella. A National show should look like a National show! Quite frankly, from what bits & pieces of Congress I got to watch on the webcast this year, the show did look CHEAP. Up until this Congress I was all keen on someday getting to go & show my ponies at Congress. After seeing what I saw on the webcast....and then hearing some of the comments and complaints from people that were actually at the show in Ardmore....I now have absolutely no interest in attending.

So, you've got some people that are turned off by a show that appears cheap (and I know I'm not the only one!!) you've got other people that don't show because the classes they want to show in aren't even offered...and I guess the show isn't likely to prosper & grow!

And honestly I get tired of hearing about the poor, hard done by Miniatures having to support everything. Why don't you complain about the thousands that are wasted on some of the supposed promotional events? A mere fraction of what was spent on sending ponies to China would pay the expenses to upgrade Congress into a National caliber event that would do far more to promote ponies than the ponies to China thing did. Does that help the Miniatures? No, but neither did sending ponies to China!

Put Congress in a central location & keep it there, and maybe you would get more ponies and so more entry money. And sometimes you have to spend money to make money--that can be true of any business. But no, let's just keep denying the funding for Congress, keep complaining if it doesn't break even, and make no effort to upgrade the show into something that looks like a National show, because it's nice to be able to keep pointing fingers at Congress and the ponies and complaining that it's just a money pit.

And Lisa, you questioned on an earlier thread why I would say that the Mini people would cut Congress if they had the power to do so??? Listen to what some are saying. Listen to what you yourself are saying! The premise is there. I saw it before I got any ponies...when I was still just "a Mini person". Initially I thought the same as Renee, that "it's not fair" how this organization is run, take from the Minis to cater to the ponies. But then the more I listened and the more I heard, the more I have to disagree.

A friend....a Mini friend who has no Shetlands and has no interest in having Shetlands...told me today that she looks at this topic differently than she did awhile back. She said that she sure doesn't want to see this registry become another AMHA--and that is pretty much what would happen if the Mini people were to get the power to change things they want changed!

And I don't get this sudden push by the Mini people to have the ASPC/AMHR horses all go back to being only Shetland and not showing AMHR. They're Minis as much as any horse is a Mini, so why shouldn't the owners show them where they want to. Oh, I get where it's coming from--get rid of them so others can do more winning--but they've paid their money to AMHR just like the rest of you and that should get them something too. I suggest that if you want them taken out of AMHR then give them back all the money they've paid into it, or put that amount back into the Shetland part of it, that would help to upgrade Congress now that I think about it! Would that get the Mini tantrums to stop???
 
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Well Frankly I will not be baited into another round.

Of course I want Congress to have a permanant home and be a great successful show all the way around and be financially sound. I will be showing their myself in 2011 and have a pony there with someone else showing as well.

I will simply say no one is wanting to take away from Congress asking for a show to break even before throwing thousands more into it is not taking it away or taking away from it.

If you think that trying to find a way to get more ponies to the shows local and National is harming the ponies then so be it.. I disagree. AS a show manager I can tell you a huge reason for not putting in all those pony classes locally is why do it for a couple of ponies. If even a portion of those ASPC/R horses showed ASPC a few shows that would make a huge difference.

I would love for Congress to be in one location so planning can happen and those that choose to go will go and those that dont' wont and the issue will be over.

But hey if class prices go up and stall prices go up and everyone is ok with that for a facility and more of whatever they want. More power to them but to hear the economy is bad they can not pay more but want more therefore others must pay for it- no matter who it comes from in any walk of life just doesnt seem like a responsible thing to do.
 
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What has the attendence been for the Mini nationals in the past 10 years? Sorry new to the organization so I don't know the history. Has it always been 1700 entries? Or did it start out with smaller numbers and grow? Was it always financially sound, breaking even or profit? Again, new to association, so I don't have the history.

I believe that if the association can treat Congress as a national caliber show - the numbers will grow. The Congress is for ASPC as well as ASPR and NSPR ponies. We need to offer all the classes - we should have the opportunity to have National Champions in the divisions that people are showing in a the local and regional levels.
 
Just to add some perspective....

I love AMHR Nationals, well managed, great staff, wonderful facility, world class competition!!

I don't love having to be gone from home so many days - AMHR Nationals takes 10 days and that is a lot of time to be away from home, work, etc.. We seldom stay until Stake Day because it is so long which means most of our National Champion drivers do not show in their respective Stake class.

I don't love having all of the Amateur classes on only 2 days, makes for a very hectic schedule if you show very many drivers like we do. We often times leave drivers at home because the classes would be one right after the other which is not a fun way to show.

So...There are up and down sides to both shows.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
 
I agree with Lewella. A National show should look like a National show! Quite frankly, from what bits & pieces of Congress I got to watch on the webcast this year, the show did look CHEAP. Up until this Congress I was all keen on someday getting to go & show my ponies at Congress. After seeing what I saw on the webcast....and then hearing some of the comments and complaints from people that were actually at the show in Ardmore....I now have absolutely no interest in attending.

So, you've got some people that are turned off by a show that appears cheap (and I know I'm not the only one!!) you've got other people that don't show because the classes they want to show in aren't even offered...and I guess the show isn't likely to prosper & grow!

And honestly I get tired of hearing about the poor, hard done by Miniatures having to support everything. Why don't you complain about the thousands that are wasted on some of the supposed promotional events? A mere fraction of what was spent on sending ponies to China would pay the expenses to upgrade Congress into a National caliber event that would do far more to promote ponies than the ponies to China thing did. Does that help the Miniatures? No, but neither did sending ponies to China!

Put Congress in a central location & keep it there, and maybe you would get more ponies and so more entry money. And sometimes you have to spend money to make money--that can be true of any business. But no, let's just keep denying the funding for Congress, keep complaining if it doesn't break even, and make no effort to upgrade the show into something that looks like a National show, because it's nice to be able to keep pointing fingers at Congress and the ponies and complaining that it's just a money pit.

And Lisa, you questioned on an earlier thread why I would say that the Mini people would cut Congress if they had the power to do so??? Listen to what some are saying. Listen to what you yourself are saying! The premise is there. I saw it before I got any ponies...when I was still just "a Mini person". Initially I thought the same as Renee, that "it's not fair" how this organization is run, take from the Minis to cater to the ponies. But then the more I listened and the more I heard, the more I have to disagree.

A friend....a Mini friend who has no Shetlands and has no interest in having Shetlands...told me today that she looks at this topic differently than she did awhile back. She said that she sure doesn't want to see this registry become another AMHA--and that is pretty much what would happen if the Mini people were to get the power to change things they want changed!

And I don't get this sudden push by the Mini people to have the ASPC/AMHR horses all go back to being only Shetland and not showing AMHR. They're Minis as much as any horse is a Mini, so why shouldn't the owners show them where they want to. Oh, I get where it's coming from--get rid of them so others can do more winning--but they've paid their money to AMHR just like the rest of you and that should get them something too. I suggest that if you want them taken out of AMHR then give them back all the money they've paid into it, or put that amount back into the Shetland part of it, that would help to upgrade Congress now that I think about it! Would that get the Mini tantrums to stop???
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Absolutely! I agree 100% to yours and Lewella's posts!
 
Lets see-- Little history as I remember. Nationals at Gordyville Il. Maybe- 1995 300 horses--not many classes, maybe three B's in a class. I remember there was two in get of sire. But, we didn't say "Oh I am not going to go if it is cheap or they don't have the classes I want." WE CAME.

Moved to Columbia Missouri. We were in heaven. We got TWO ladies bathrooms - sometimes one worked. Dirt floors- stall that flooded, but we kept coming, by the hundreds. And because of that they added more classes and we got some new decorations. That horse that hangs over up there is still part of our Missouri decorations. I can't remember how many years we were there, and maybe it was the dumps, but we were so glad to have a Nationals that we didn't feel it was cheap, even when the AMHA people made fun of us.

Finally we out grew Missouri and the hunt was on for a new facility,a committee was chosen and after much research they chose Tulsa. Many like myself were very worried, what happens if we can't pay for it? But, we did because we kept coming in bigger numbers.

Now the day may come when we can't afford Tulsa, well if that happens so be it. If we have to tighten our belts and dig into our own pockets we will and I will also bet that we will keep coming no matter where it is, how hot it is or how many classes there are. It is the AMHR miniature horse peoples mentality. We love our Nationals!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Lets see-- Little history as I remember. Nationals at Gordyville Il. Maybe- 1995 300 horses--not many classes, maybe three B's in a class. But, we didn't say "oh I am not going to go if it is cheap or they don't have the classes I want. WE CAME.

Moved to Columbia Missouri. We were in heaven. We got TWO ladies bathrooms - sometimes one worked. Dirt floors- stall that flooded, but we kept coming, by the hundreds. And because of that they added more classes and we got some new decorations. That horse that hangs over up there is still part of our Missouri decorations. I can't remember how many years we were there, and maybe it was the dumps, but we were so glad to have a Nationals that we didn't feel it was cheap, even when the AMHA people made fun of us.

Finally we out grew Missouri and the hunt was on for a new facility, and many like myself were very worried, what happens if we can't pay for it? But we did because we kept coming in bigger numbers.

Now the day may come when we can't afford Tulsa, well if that happens so be it. If we have to tighten our belts and dig into our own pockets we will and I will also bet that we will keep coming no matter where it is, how hot it is or how many classes there are. It is the AMHR miniature horse peoples mentality. We love our Nationals!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to agree... the first Nationals I saw in person was in Columbia Missouri... pretty similar to what Congress is now. Only until Tulsa have I thought that AMHR Nationals is a top, top class event!

I don't think the Congress is cheap. Money makes the world go 'round. I don't think that Congress needs to be as giant as AMHR Nationals... it's a smaller show and I think it's a great show!

Andrea
 
Of course it doesn't have to be giant like Nationals--IMO it isn't the size of the show that makes it Nationals caliber--i'ts the presentation of the ponies, the quality of the ponies, and the quality of the facility! And yes, it does deserve to have a nice facility--and an arena that people will say "IT WAS A GREAT ARENA" and nothing more. Notice this year--every single person that says "it was a lovely arena" has to finish that statement with the words COMPARED TO WHAT WE'VE HAD IN THE PAST. It would be nice to have it at a facility where that second set of words isn't required to qualify the first set of words!

Barns with ventilation, an arena that isn't made smaller to make room for a make up area for the halter horses, a gate that doesn't require the driving ponies to go down the main barn aisle to get into the ring. Bathrooms that aren't a health hazard (which I've been told they were by more than one exhibitor)--that alone is a big turnoff! Those are the things that people are talking about--and more than one person has told me they just aren't keen on going back to Ardmore for another Congress. A ring set up & webcasting that allows the ponies to show on the long side of the arena where maybe they can show off a bit of action instead of cramming them all into the short end of the arena & expecting them to do railwork on a surface that several have said wasn't level and which made it awkward to work your ponies on the rail. Those last things are some of what I saw on the webcast that made it appear to me to be less than a National quality show.
 
I will only comment one time on this subject , as on another forum this topic has been shut totally down !!!!

I find it is ashamed that someone would judge a entire show by what they saw on a web cast .. The bathrooms were addressed the second day we were there and I had reports from folks that first reported them , that they were fine the rest of the week. That is all I can go on.. I know that the restrooms in the Main Arena were always nice and clean ..
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I have contacted several facility's that have been mentioned by several that are first class arenas and two have NO DATES for Aug . or October !! for the next 5 years ..

I hope that we can all work together on finding a location for Congress once and for all. I truly believe that the members who show at Congress should be allowed to vote on this , just like we did for Mini Nationals .
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Well Belinda, you should have walked through the other barns then. The bathrooms - Barn 7 - no shower curtain, dirty and no lock on the door. Only one shower stall.

Barn 8 - had a shower curtain, but no working light and heater that turned on at will. Nice sauna. And dirty - out of towels. If you took a shower - you might have been doing everything in the dark. One shower stall.

Barn 9 - no ventilation in the bathrooms. 2 stalls. NO SHOWER STALLS - we had to go to barn 7 or 8. Dirty, out of soap and hand towels constantly. The door on one of the stalls broke half way through the week and never got fixed. Someone put a small fan in it to circulate air.

SO 2 Shower stalls for everyone at Congress this year.

So whomever reported to you the bathrooms were fixed - maybe they were only talking about the main arena bathrooms? Cuz the other barns, were not taken care of. This is first hand experience speaking.

I watched Karen Shaw come up the aisle into the arena with a driving pony, with 2 headers and navigate the make up area into the arena. Tsk Tsk! But at least they had the foresight to tell everyone to move aside, Mark did a good job of announcing several times before the driving classes for people to clear that aisle way.

Also first hand - running the rail on the short end didn't bother me with the higher action ponies as far as the length went, it had plenty of length, what bothered me was the slant from the wall of the arena about a cart width into the arena center. That was fun. If you were doing rail work with foundation or classics, you were 6ft out and didn't notice the slant. I showed classic, MP and APSR, so that was first hand experience.

Other than that, the only other thing that was a take away from the arena was cutting the size down, but on the other hand, it did allow people to go from the make up area into the bleacher area from the arena floor. I did think it took away from the driving ponies. Hopefully we can fix the issue with the ponies seeing just feet by cheese clothing the rail all the way around and do something with the two vents that freaked so many ponies out too, if we should go back. Make sure Bill is looking at the arena floors well when the site selection committee goes around. If you don't drive or run ponies on the rail, you probably don't understand what we are talking about.

Was it the worst facility no - the crew members were visible during the day and fixed what they could when asked. They saved me on mare day running back and forth from Barn 9 a couple times by giving me rides. They were very helpful with a couple other things as well.

But I do think we can do better on facilities. It would be nice if the site committee pinned on the forums the sites they have looked into already and the reason why it was not on the short list.

As members, we can help look.
 
Belinda--this is what I said about what I saw on the webcast:

A ring set up & webcasting that allows the ponies to show on the long side of the arena where maybe they can show off a bit of action instead of cramming them all into the short end of the arena & expecting them to do railwork on a surface that several have said wasn't level and which made it awkward to work your ponies on the rail. Those last things are some of what I saw on the webcast that made it appear to me to be less than a National quality show.
The webcast is showing the ponies to the world, and IMO those ponies should be showing to their best advantage. As I have said on another thread on another board, I guess my expectations were just too high. I was expecting to see ponies that were showing some awesome action in their railwork. I know how we showed Morgans, and I know how the local guys show their hackneys--I was expecting to see something similar in the Shetlands. I know how well some of these ponies can move. I am not saying I didn't see some quality ponies; others I cannot comment on because it's hard to see them all at an ideal angle on the webcast. What I didn't see was action. Many of the ponies did not set up & show well at all. A few didn't behave. Others it looked like the handlers were very tentative, afraid that their ponies were going to misbehave, afraid to move them up a bit so that they could show how they can move. When I commented on this on another board, people offered the reasons/excuses about the arena surface not being level, and people walking past at eye level scaring the ponies off the rail, the fact that the ponies had to come from excessively hot barns into the cool arena & so they wanted to act silly when they cooled off--none of those things does anything at all to show the ponies off to their best advantage.

If I am going to haul ponies 20+ hours to a show, I expect to show in a facility that is at least as good as what we have to show in locally, especially when it is a National show! If it's just another local show, well, then that is different--not that I would haul 20 hours to just another local show, that's just not what I do. I can't. A National show is a goal, something you plan for, work toward, save money for and hire barn help for when I'm away to that show, I can't just do all that for multiple shows or just any show--and I have expectations for what it will be like when I arrive at that goal--the National show.

That's great if all the things that were wrong with the bathrooms & whatever else got fixed up in a day or two. Thing is, though, there are still people who were not happy with the facility even after those things go fixed. I wouldn't go to a restaurant if 10 of my friends told me that they'd tried the place and the food was crappy. Likewise I have no desire to make the effort to attend a horse show that multiple people tell me they were not impressed with, or rather is held at a facility that didn't impress them--for multiple reasons. It's just not worth my time, effort or money, and I have tot hink that I'm not the only one that feels that way. That's one reason you lose entries to other shows. People attend the shows that best suit them, and facilities and such play a part when people are deciding which shows suit them.

My point was--it isn't a great plan to say that until Congress grows & makes more money we cannot have a better/more expensive facility, better show schedule, different classes--because that in itself is self-limiting. There has to be something that will attract new people, or lure former exhibitors back from some other show that's on or close to the same dates.

Sorry I haven't yet had a chance to reply to my e-mails--have read them but am fighting with a new computer and modern programs & nothing is working the way it's supposed to, or the way that I know to try and make it work. I've been trying to send photos of some items I have for sale and now I think I have two programs fighting over how to file my photos & it's just not working. So, I haven't had a chance to answer messages!

Belinda, I in no way meant any disregard or lack of appreciation for the work that many put in to organize Congress this year. I do know how much work it is to organize a show, particularly a national level show and I definitely appreciate the people who do it. I just think those people would have an easier time of it in a better facility. I'm glad that the site selection committee is willing to look at other places for 2011, and I hope they will choose a good one that is a little more central and a little less hot.
 
We didn't even get toilet paper in Columbia, we brought it from home. That was okay with us.
 
I'm only going to comment once on this topic as well since it has been beat to death on another forum. Ardmore was perfectly fine for Congress. The only huge issue was the lack of ventilation in the barns. That effected everyone's health and safety but everyone survived. I showed all halter horses and never had any trouble with the footing on the short side of the arena. We used the short side so that the camera man could get all of the horses on film. I wasn't hanging out in the bathrooms. Only used it when I needed to and took showers at my trailer. They were hot but I didn't stay in there long enough to dwell on it.

I was excited and happy to be at Congress as I am every year. I was really excited that it only took me 4.5 hours to get there compared to 18. Anyone can pick a facility apart if they look hard enough.

My suggestion: Rent Ardmore next year, and sign a contract for 5 years with Tulsa starting in 2012. We already have a relationship with that facility, we DON'T have to rent the large arena but instead the Pavillion which is just as nice, and you'd be hard pressed to find something seriously wrong with that facility. Concrete, open barns, plenty of wash racks and showers, A/C arena, grocery store/lowes across the street, beautiful RV park (attendants will even help you park your rig), and I could go on and on.

That's it. No more from me on this topic. And honestly, if you are going to tear Congress apart do the rest of us a favor and don't come.
 
I will answer this as someone who has been to a Congress or 2 ... or 30+ as the case may be....

I am not going to address these in any particular order, just as I think of the answers....

1) The Congress existed first. There have been 64 of them. Since some in the group are LONG TIME participants who do like some show aspects handled a certain way, getting them to change to another show's way is going to not be an overnight process ... especially for those who prefer to see things done in some of the more traditional society show type ways.

For example ... who can tell me ... why in many society breed shows .... stallions always show first????

Personally, I might not be opposed to waiting to tie grands later - Like closer to stake time. But, reality ... probably the Classic division would be more likely to go for that than the Modern division. It's a much different and simpler process to get a Miniature or Classic halter pony ready again than a Modern.

Many stables that are competitive in BOTH halter and driving might go for a championship morning closer to stakes. That might be exciting. And, it might keep folks around 'til the end of the show. There are many of us now who really feel like way more attention is given to halter. But, many of the major stables that do both halter AND driving really, really in-depth would probably will not want their championship classes that same evening right at the beginning of the driving session.

Think about who handles the majority of your AMHR halter champions ... and who handles a majority of your AMHR driving grand champions. You don't see THAT much cross over of handlers ... some ... but not alot. Same is true of Classics. Same is NOT as true for Moderns and ASPR.

Again, sometimes ... differences in the breeds do actually need to dictate some differences in how things happen.

As an aside ....watch long-time stables on halter mornings ... you aren't likely to see them standing around w/ their qualifying ponies the entire morning. That can keep a pony from being "fried". But, it still happens. So, perhaps this is something that could be addressed for a positive change. Just make sure EVERY division is represented in the decision making AND make sure someone who only does halter doesn't just make the decision because moving championships into the beginning of a performance session has a major impact when you are talking about getting a major halter contending Modern Stallion ready w/ tack & a tail right before you might have to have a young junior harness pony in the ring.

But ... I'd be all for a separate championship time frame ... as long as it didn't interfere w/ a driving time frame.

2) $1,000 Amateur Incentives...

These are NOT the province of R Nationals alone. The ASPC Congress has Amateur Gelding Incentives as well. The $1,000 incentive is the purse for every national level incentive class. I forget what it pays now to win although you think I'd know that since we've won the Modern Amateur incentive at Congress. Maybe $500. It was $250 to win at Congress or Nationals, but when we dumped the Amateur Mare incentive and put all the money into the Gelding incentive, it went up and paid a few more places. It used to pay four placings. Now ... I forget ... maybe it pays 8??? These are ASPC, Inc., programs ... even the one at AMHR Nationals. They are the same. The money is the same. The payouts are the same, just as the Amateur Gelding Incentives at the Area Shows are the same ... just for less money.

They just aren't listed the same way in the Congress premium. Doesn't mean they aren't exactly alike though.

3) Talk a a major youth stable or two who is also a contending open stable as well... a good many of us DO NOT WANT OUR CLASSES CRAMMED INTO A SCHEDULE LIKE THAT. We don't even really like it crammed into the two afternoons it's crammed into now. Many of us would prefer halter classes be held after their respective breed classes and our driving classes spread out a bit. If you ever tried to drive a Modern Youth Harness Pony and a Modern Youth Roadster Pony and an ASPR youth driver or two and a Classic youth driver or two in the same afternoon, you'd know why. It's pratically impossible.

Were Congress to move dates into the school year, yes ...we'd probably need to put the youth classes on a weekend. But, then someone who actually does ALL youth type classes and who actually knows something about driving would have to actually be involved in the setting of the schedule of youth classes. I only have two kids and help w/ a third. These types of schedules with a PONY SHOW are much tougher than the are with a MINI show. The animals aren't the same. You can't treat them the same.

4) Cooler time of the year ....

Absolutely. Most would be in favor of it, especially Modern folks whose ENTIRE show season is ONLY 6-8 weeks long. As I've pointed out on other forums, the ONLY reason the Congress is presently in late July/early August is simply because ... when the show was reunited in 1998 to kick of its second 50-year run ... that time frame was the ONLY time frame Gordyville Arena had open.

Congress was held the most often at a time frame covering late Aug & early September days.

Then, it was held the next most often in a time frame basically around the 2nd/3rd week of August.

It's only be at its present time frame 13 times.

I hate to body clip. But, I'd take a late September or early October date in a heart beat ... and would take my kids out of school ... and would even deal w/ youth classes being put in over a weekend as long as that schedule is vastly improved over the current youth nightmare, I mean youth schedule.

5) Stakes ....

I have to be honest. I forget which way it's done now. It used to be Congress and Nationals stakes were handled EXACTLY the same way... but I honestly forget whether the original plan was 1) the across the board thing of $375 OR 2)IF the original plan was done the way I think Congress stakes are funded now. I won't say because I forget. However, if it's like I THINK ... I'll take a Modern Road Stake w/ a simple 4 entries over a $375 AMHR Nationals stake any day of the week. And ... for those years that Modern competition is deep and there are 7 or 8 in a road stake .... I just have two words... KA CHING!

6) Trophies...

The basic winning trophies between the two national shows are the same. The most notable difference is that 2nds at R Nationals get silver. However, I think if you talk to Shetland Congress exhibitors, you'll probably see a divide as to whether the participants would want that reserve silver at Congress. The divide probably happens along the lines of newer Congress exhibitors versus longer-tenured Congress exhibitors and/or between those who are die-hard pony-only and those who do both Congress and Nationals. While we may not all see it that way, you have to remember the concept of a 2nd place ... I mean RESERVE ... win shot and victory pass is fewer than 10 years old at Congress. To this day, watch how many people do NOT take their reserve picture in the ring and do not stay for a reserve victory pass. Also, remember, silver is a society type trophy. For many of us, we'd rather have that piece of silver to win than a generic trophy. However, not everyone feels that way.

Until Congresses finances improve or there are more sponsors, the reserve trophy is probably not something that can be done ... especially since there are still those who see reserve as the "first place looser." Granted we might not all agree... but some of these folks are still adjusting to the reserve picture and victory pass. This is slow process we can work on if the show finances improve.

Now ... if we can just figure out about some donations. That is a great idea. Just like adding the webcast this year. These are things that can be worked out now that people are more attuned to it. But ... with that said ... don't forget just how many special awards in actual Classes Congress has.

I will probably think of more points when I am out doing chores or when I go back to work later. Will add them if I think of them. My caution would be this ... just because one show has a better written premium book, don't automatically jump to the wrong conclusions. Congress has the Incentives. And ... truth be told ... if it works like I think, I'll take the Congress payout method over a $375 stake as long as the entries are good.

AHR

PS ... you know, folks ARE fired up about Congress date & location. Fired up members are busy & involved members. As such, facility date, cost and availability info that some are pulling together is ... in some cases ... very, very, very, very interesting. Should make for an interesting convention for sure.
 
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Oh ... and one more thing...

Am a HUGE fan of this year's webcast. KUDOS to the sponsors. Realistically, I do think there's a better than even chance the show will be back in Ardmore next year. Therefore, an improvement I'd like to see considered if the webcast is worked out again.... Please, please, please, please do not cram the Moderns into that teeny tiny rail for work. That was a pretty serious injustice to one division.

My other thing ... not everyone would rate the ring that great. Yes, it was large. But, it was also truncated slightly .... why... to accommodate HALTER animals. Also, of all the place I've shown, this is one of the more dangerous because of the size of the wall. Too much movement and sound happens RIGHT at head level of a driving horse. I scratched two driving entries for safety reasons. Also, as a driver ... I didn't care for the shoot.

Ardmore had some great things. Loved the webcast. Like the AC in the arena. Youth stuff was great. Loved the hospitality. I just would like driving to be given more of a fair consideration because Hardy Murphy probably doesn't even make my top 10 driving rings.

I wouldn't not go back to Hardy Murphy. I am a fan of Congress so I'll go wherever. But, if I have to limit my driving entries because a good driving ring isn't simply a big driving ring and if I limit my halter entries because the rail isn't sufficient, I don't have that many entries left to make.
 

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