Why do the majority think this way?

[ohmt]

My question is this:

Would you rather give birth to a baby that is 23" in length with a 12" head circumference at 7 lbs, or an 18" length baby with a 16" head circumference at 9 lbs?

Now personally, I have never given birth so I can't answer that, but I asked my mother and she said hands down the first one. I am guessing that it's not much different for your mare. I asked my vet what she thought the last time she stopped by and she said she'd rather have more room for her hand to maneuver and have to deal with longer legs than less leg length and larger circumference of foal.

Not saying that you shouldn't keep height in mind, but in my opinion there are more important factors to consider. I have a 27" stallion that I wouldn't breed to a large number of mares, whether 28" or 34", because he's bigger boned than what we usually have. I have two 34" stallions that I would breed to any of my mares without worrying because of their refinement and of course I know what they produce as having a refined stallion doesn't mean he'll produce foals that way.

A couple of foals that we had this year, with heights of sires and dams:

2013 chestnut filly out of a 31" mare and a 27" stallion. The mare was a maiden, but is 6 yrs old and we had our vet check her to make sure she was roomy enough. Vet loved her-we thought she'd be a good first cross for our little guy. The filly was born 16.5" and is a TANK. We have not had a foal like her in a while. Now we know we'll have to be extra careful IF we ever breed to the stallion again, but I don't think that we will, even though the filly is very correct in other ways.

2013 silver black pinto filly out of 28.75" mare and 34" stallion. We have done this cross before and the filly is 27.5" as a 2 yr old and I just love her. Her proportions and refinement are lovely and I'll hopefully be showing her next year in the 28" and under sr mare classes. This year's filly was born 17.5", only 1" taller than the little red, but look at the difference.

Now if you had a mare with a dystocia, do you think your vet would rather have the little red one to work with, or the pinto?

I'd love to have a discussion regarding this topic. What are your thoughts on it, and why?

 

[BSharpRanch]

We had a very leggy refined filly that just couldn't get into the correct position and as a result we lost her. Long archy neck and legs that went on forever. Unfortunatly she couldn't get her hear lined up in the birth canal and all four legs wanted to come out at the same time. Almost 2 hours to untangle the mess and we were there from the beginning of labor. I'll opt for the heavy small baby over the wispy foal. We've never had a problem with the heavier foals, just seems like the lighter, longer ones. Just my experience.

 

[disneyhorse]

There are probably a lot of variables that come into play.

There is a Percheron breeder I visited that crosses with thoroughbreds for warmbloods. The offspring out of his Percheron mares take after the mares, and are heavier boned than what he wanted. He gets his nicest foals by breeding his Percheron stallion to thoroughbred mares. He has had 20 foals and only lost one... Even though the stallion is obviously twice as heavy and has refinement but only by draft standards.

The Percheron mare my friend bought from him... Well she bred her to an Andalusian stallion and had such a bad dystocia that she lost both the colt and then the mare a week later from complications. So if size was the only factor, wouldn't be that dramatic of a difference?

 

[ohmt]

BSharpRanch-my vet has said in those cases, it is almost always that the foal passed in utero. We've had a handful of foals who couldn't get their heads and legs lined up and my vet has never had any that were alive when she arrived (and she is only 10 minutes from us). Maybe that is just in our case, though. She prefers to have more room to maneuver with the longer legs then have a wider foal, but maybe it is just personal preference? We lost a foal last year due to the same thing-head back, back legs forward, and front legs back (he passed in utero due to umbilical cord wrapped around his neck) and it took her 2 hrs to get him out. He was sired by the same stallion as the little red filly above and was the same exact build.

Our mares are generations and generations of our own breeding so they produce very consistently (most of the time)-they're all related in some way or another. We bring in new bloodlines with our stallions so when we have variations, a lot of it comes from there instead of the mares, though of course we know the mares contribute their half. For us it just seems as though refinement in the stallion plays such a very big role, though our Iowas Little Kernel son has a medium build and produces nice and refined foals for us. That's why we only breed a couple of mares at first-see what they will produce first because you can't always tell just by looking. I will have to ask my vet what she sees with the larger breeds she visits. It's interesting to think about, disneyhorse

 

[BSharpRanch]

Our filly was alive at the begining of labor as she was struggling to get born. Her head was not turned back but tucked between her forelegs. We had to pull her nose up into position. Then unlock one foreleg elbow off the mare's pelvis and then push the hindlegs back into the uterus. Our vet felt that the filly's umbilicl cord was compressed by a hind hoof against the pelvis while we were trying to untie the knot the filly was in.

I know that my Quarab stallion throws small babies at birth that then grow to 14-15 hands. All but one foal. His last son was born with legs just a couple inches shorter than his dam's. The mare owner and her vet worked like mad to get that colt untied to get him born. We are assuming that his leggyness came from the mare as all of his previous foals were tiny and born without issue. I guess it all comes down to personal experience. I do not breed 100s of foals. I've only birthed out three full term mini foals and about two dozen big horse foals and a mini hinney.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

In the dairy industry, where genetics and repro are far less subjective than in the equine industry, bulls are actually scored on sire calving ease (how easily his babies are born) and daughter calving ease (how easily his babies have babies). High SCE sires have small calves. They usually aren't "as meaty," and overall are smaller, but grow to be normal sized. High DCE sires have daughters with width through the hips, a downward rump angle and a genetic predisposition to have easy calvings.

It makes a heck of a difference. I work on a farm where we breed mostly for calving ease. In 1200 freshenings, I've pulled less than 20 calves. No joke. 3 of them were on purchased animals, who were probably just bred to barnyard bill the backyard bull if you know what I mean.

 

[Tab]

I think just like with people, the determining factor is in the actual experience(s). A doctor looked at one woman who is under 5' and told her she wouldn't be able to give birth naturally. Well, married to a 6' man she had 5 considerably easy deliveries. Another woman her size but shaped slightly differently (with more muscle mass) had to have a c section. I am short but stocky and muscular, and both of mine got stuck on the way out, I still delivered naturally but my muscle and bone is very thick. I grew up doing farm work and have two mega tough parents. Another lady my height married to a man the same height as my husband had relatively normal deliveries. She is built much lighter than I. What I'm trying to say is that the only true determiner is in the actual breedings,. You just can't and don't otherwise know.