Who attended the Greencastle Sale

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Littleum

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I don't know if it's 100% a bad thing new people seeing horses selling for next to nothing at auctions.

Okay, before you flame me here, give me a second to get my thoughts out. ;)

We often also bemoan people who get into the breed thinking they'll breed and make money and resale and all that. Maybe they think they'll get a few horses, breed some cute foals, sell some of the cute foals and be able to make more cute foals.

So they come to this forum and see us sobbing over bad prices, and they see $200, $300, $400 for well-bred horses. $50 for everything else. Its a bloodbath from top to bottom. It's ugly.

Maybe (just maybe) there is a silver lining in all this?

1) Maybe they see that they're NOT going to get rich quick and don't open up Miniature Mill #908439203 (they go breed... emus or something)

2) Maybe they were on the fence and had heard all these rumors about how expensive nice minis are, and decide hey, I can get a nice mini for not so much... now is the time!!! (and presto, we have a new loyal Miniature lover, our industry grows, market base expands...)

Maybe I'm grasping but I'm trying to see the upside in all of this down. (Imagine that)

And yes, auctions do have an influence on private sales I'm sure, but private sales do have their own safety net. Auctions are "as is" situations. You take your chances. The markup you get with a private sale also (in theory) provides the safety net of guarantees and assurances. Auction prices come with an assumption of risk.

I'm not inclined to really worry over scaring away newbies who aren't savvy enough to realize that 1) the market is depressed and 2) auctions are a risk and the price reflects that risk. Does our breed (or really, any breed) need more unsavvy people who can't see the writing on the wall and the big picture? Maybe that's an ugly, elitist thing to say but I can't help but feel like the horse industry as a whole really just does not need more uninformed people right now. And if the low ball auction prices scare away would-be owners, honestly, maybe that's a good thing in the long run.

I really don't see how supressing (or making it difficult to obtain) auction result information is going to be helpful. It might actually give people the illusion that our industry is healthy when it is gasping for breath. And it's a very intimidating thing too if you're new and are trying to do research but have to message people for price data. Why should we make it more difficult for people interested in our breed to get information?
 

Arion Mgmt

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Sandy

I do see your thought process. But tell me when have you been at an auction and sat next to a newbie and told them stay away and dont get in it or heard someone else send away a newbie. They are told get in now while it is cheap!!! you can now REALLY MAKE SOME MONEY!!! Oh and BTW lot # such n such would be a heck of a starter mare for you!

John
 

Robin

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I do see your point as far as looking at the silver lining- but if only that was more evident and happened more often. I say it time and again and will continue to say it- majority of people in the miniatues are not livestock breeders, they have never owned a full size horse, cow, llama, pig before- mostly dogs, cats, guinea pigs etc-. That is the nice thing about a mini- anyone can handle them, but not everyone should.

We find lots of people get in and get out - 5 years is the average someone stays in the horse business. You all have seen many people come and go from the forum. It isn't that there is anything wrong with the horses or market- it is that we have attracted people who cannot "do the math", "manage livestock", or simply "loose interest." I guess the difference to me is not telling someone not to get into the minis because they do not have a good background of horses or livestock, but spending the time to help them learn and do it successfully.

I think the internet again has made bad information more accessible and good information harder to find. What happed to the good ole phone call, come to the farm, meet the people and horses you are investing your hard earned money with and for, and get the big picture before jumping in with both feet over a picture online and then having a bad experience. Again- it isn't about the sale prices- it is about people getting the wrong information. We aren't hiding the sale prices from people- again all anyone has to do is ask. We aren't being mis leading either- we are simply protecting the industry- putting our best foot forward- not showing our butts on the wide screen as to how many idiots there are in the breed, how crappy the horses can be and how low the prices are at a one day sale.

Let me ask this..... If you have a horse that just won World Grand Champion in one stall and a horse that was barely breeding quality , poor pedigree and unproven in the next- which one would you pay to advertise and promote? The poor one- because it is what it is and you want people to see it- or the World Champion? I would rather see people promote the big sales - because they do still occur- then flood the market with the auction prices and blow the low sales out of proportion as if it is a sign of the times. It's not that they don't exist, it is why draw attention to them as if that is all there is. They will always be there- bad horses/low sale prices, good horses/good sale prices, the high end auctions and the clearance/dispersal auctions.

Robin-LKF
 

Royal Crescent

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I just like to see is sale price are going up, what quality and I LOVE it when a good deal can be had! I did miss seeing everyone but I ususally dont buy at the sale but I love the jokes, good times and tack!
I don't think auction prices should reflect what private sale prices are and if people want to talk about it, it is their choice. The funny thing is, everyone is arguing about it here :arg! , and no one has posted any news from the auction!
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So who wants to get back to the the question asked?
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Barb
 
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Littleum

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Let me ask this..... If you have a horse that just won World Grand Champion in one stall and a horse that was barely breeding quality , poor pedigree and unproven in the next- which one would you pay to advertise and promote? The poor one- because it is what it is and you want people to see it- or the World Champion? I would rather see people promote the big sales - because they do still occur- then flood the market with the auction prices and blow the low sales out of proportion as if it is a sign of the times. It's not that they don't exist, it is why draw attention to them as if that is all there is. They will always be there- bad horses/low sale prices, good horses/good sale prices, the high end auctions and the clearance/dispersal auctions.
The unfortunate thing about sales this year in general seems to be (big and little) the prices are bad. The high quality auctions have a handful of bright spots but prices are depressed all the way around. Maybe a new person wouldn't be able to put those prices into historical context and they're not quite as ugly, but from my desk here those results are just as grim as the results from low end auctions. The market seems to be all bad news these days.
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I'm not saying not to educate people on the challenges of owning livestock (we all have to learn somewhere, sometime, somehow) But there are lots of people out there who are attracted and sustained by their belief they'll make money, or "cute foals always find a home" If these auction posts encourage folks to establish more realistic goals, I think maybe that's not such a bad thing.

I do appreciate that it really, really hurts breeders. It does take a chomp right out of values. Folks are going to be saying to themselves, "I'll just wait for such and such auction next year because I'll probably find the same quality for pennies on the dollar" So I can understand that breeders cringe when they see these prices and start making efforts to couch them in the proper context- and I think that's a good thing, because I think it's important for folks to understand market forces. I just don't think making the information "by request only" is the right fix. We can agree to disagree, because I can see the other side of the coin too.

As for the "let's hold our money until the auction season"... maybe that will encourage a rebound. Folks (maybe a good number of folks who otherwise would never have bothered attending) will turn out to sales trying to find a bargain, prices will crawl up due to increased competition. So okay, not so many great bargains, but the catalog was great and the atmosphere was great, so they come back anyway the next year. Prices remain stable... wash, rinse, repeat, recovery. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic.
 
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ruffian

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IMO The Internet is Pandora's box. Once the lid came off, EVERYTHING good and bad came pouring out. And unfortunately there are people everywhere who can't wait to talk about bad news, such as low prices. So there is no way to stop public information - such as auction prices - from becoming public very quickly.

I myself like to see auction prices. I don't take it that those prices are the be all and end all. It is information offered that should be taken as it is, a quick note jotted on a sale catalog while the next horse is coming in, a number written that was gabled by the auctioneer's mike, and may or may not be accurate.

I can certainly attest that great quality horses go through auctions, both live and silent. I can also attest that I've seen junk horses - one that darn near bit me! - come through auctions.

So it's caveat emptor - enjoy auctions, buy if you want, have regrets that you didn't, or buyer's remorse, buy at a farm or off a website. But enjoy your horses, take good care of them, show if you want, drive if you want, but please, please don't attack those that make it possible for us to increase or decrease our herds at their effort and expense!!
 

Mona

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VERY well written Dana!!!
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IMO The Internet is Pandora's box. Once the lid came off, EVERYTHING good and bad came pouring out. And unfortunately there are people everywhere who can't wait to talk about bad news, such as low prices. So there is no way to stop public information - such as auction prices - from becoming public very quickly.
I myself like to see auction prices. I don't take it that those prices are the be all and end all. It is information offered that should be taken as it is, a quick note jotted on a sale catalog while the next horse is coming in, a number written that was gabled by the auctioneer's mike, and may or may not be accurate.

I can certainly attest that great quality horses go through auctions, both live and silent. I can also attest that I've seen junk horses - one that darn near bit me! - come through auctions.

So it's caveat emptor - enjoy auctions, buy if you want, have regrets that you didn't, or buyer's remorse, buy at a farm or off a website. But enjoy your horses, take good care of them, show if you want, drive if you want, but please, please don't attack those that make it possible for us to increase or decrease our herds at their effort and expense!!
 

HGFarm

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Well, there are auctions and then there are auctions!!! I would never mention the local auctions here in the same sentence as the ones put on by LKF and other top sales. (Oh no, I just did!!) There is no comparision in my opinion and I would certainly not base the prices paid at the local one as the going rate, and expect to pay the same thing at the World Sale, LKF or any of the other higher quality auctions.

Different parts of the country seem to vary in prices too, along with what the economy is doing there.

I do not see any harm in stating the prices of the horses at the auctions, as I think it does reflect on the GENERAL economy (and we all know where that is right now, it doesnt have to be spelled out) and I think it also shows when the economy starts to pick up, etc...... too. It sort of lets everyone know where things are or where they are headed.

And I, for one, am fairly tired of hearing that the 'miniature market is glutted by poor breeders, etc...' story. So this tells me that NOBODY should be breeding horses of ANY breed at all- ALL the markets must be glutted, (full sized horses cannot even be GIVEN away here) unless you are going to treat them like cattle and eat them. Cars are not selling either, nor is real estate, based on the economy, so manufactoring vehicles and building things needs to come to a stop right now, as the market is apparently glutted there too. Flame away..........
 

minie812

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IMO The Internet is Pandora's box. Once the lid came off, EVERYTHING good and bad came pouring out. And unfortunately there are people everywhere who can't wait to talk about bad news, such as low prices. So there is no way to stop public information - such as auction prices - from becoming public very quickly.
I myself like to see auction prices. I don't take it that those prices are the be all and end all. It is information offered that should be taken as it is, a quick note jotted on a sale catalog while the next horse is coming in, a number written that was gabled by the auctioneer's mike, and may or may not be accurate.

I can certainly attest that great quality horses go through auctions, both live and silent. I can also attest that I've seen junk horses - one that darn near bit me! - come through auctions.

So it's caveat emptor - enjoy auctions, buy if you want, have regrets that you didn't, or buyer's remorse, buy at a farm or off a website. But enjoy your horses, take good care of them, show if you want, drive if you want, but please, please don't attack those that make it possible for us to increase or decrease our herds at their effort and expense!!
DITTO...
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sharpllook

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Sorry JEAN........ I UNDERSTAND TOTALLY what you wanted to accomplish with your "do not post".

I believe it was NOT do not post but rather "Come on people buy better horses at a buyers market!"

We :modedit: complain if it is to hot to cold to cheap to high.

Spend what you can afford on the horse you want. As long as you are not stealing to do it, and as long as my kids have shoes........ WAY I HAVE NO KIDS.

Like South Dakota, horse prices are the same....... weed out the feeble and weak of heart.

Speaking of heart, I am truely sorry Jean! and yes, I have my big pants on too......... and yes they too fit tight.

I am Lonnie Sharping of SOS Miniatures, I host a mini horse consignment sale and believe I have attend a lot of different sales in the nation supporting the industry. I've been screwed by some of the best names in the business and I have been blessed by some of the best MID WEST people in the world.

Always remember a horse will never lies and each horse has a value all its own.

Get into the horse industry because you want too. Stay in the horse industry for the excitement and the people.
 
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Maxi'sMinis

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We will all be able to see how healthy the market is after the Texas Hold Em sale is done and over with. The horses in this sale leave no imagination to the quality being offered there, with all the titled horses in this sale.

The Greencastle sale has had some good horses in its time and some not so good. A lot of the horses at this auction are being dumped but quite a few are real quality and they ended up going back home with their owners or going to some lucky person.

I have been going to this sale since 2000 and the fall sale always brings lower prices. I didn't stay until the end of the sale this time. I bought a GREAT horse and went on home. I wasn't going to go and something got me up out of bed and got my butt there and I came home with a wonderful horse at a great price.

Let's see what the Texas sale brings and then we can all make a call on how the market is looking.

I know there are a lot of people out of a job, a home and money these days. Its not going to stay this way. The economy will improve, hopefully in a year. Let's all try to make the best of it. Do what you have to make ends meet. I only bred one horse for 2010. But this is not my only source of income, so I don't depend on foal sales to put food on my table.

In the years I have been in minis I have never been able to buy from the big farms and this year I have. So I can't say its been all bad for me. I have some horses standing out in my fields that I can look at with some serious pride. They are beautiful. I am sorry it has been at others expense but I wouldn't be looking at them otherwise.

The Greencastle sale brought some really low prices and a few better prices. Sorry to say that the 3 dwarfs brought some of the higher bids. There were a lot of colts that went low and this has run along the same lines as other sales this year. The mares that had a foal at side brought OK prices or went back home.

I think it would be best to just do what has to be done to ride this economy out. It will get better and as all the people have already said the private sales are still there and bringing good money for a good horse.
 

Robin

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Hi Maxi- I agree with most of what you said- except for using the Texas sale as a determining factor. I have been doing this all my life and this time of year is the worst time to have a sale. Anytime after the Nationals and World Shows are usually horse people's down time- the last thing they want to do is go on a road trip and do horses. That is one reason why we always expected lower prices at the Oktoberfest sale. People are saving money for X-mas - not all kids and family members want a new horse
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Not sure why- but my husband would kill me if that was his X-mas present.

Anyway- I am keeping my fingers corssed- but I have a feeling that there will be some wonderful horses not bring what they would be priced if they were here on this farm. Their genetics, titles and qualities are worth much more than most people are willing to pay this time of year- let alone with the economy.

Again- just another reason why I don't recommend using dispersal sales (which my understanding is several of the consignors are getting out or drastically reducing numbers in this sale and have $0. reserves on horses) as a gage for the market. I have sold several recently (not counting the Oktoberfest) and have several valid inquiries for high end show horses and breeding stock right now- ($10,000 and above). I wouldn't say they are as abundant as years past and most of them are international, but a sale is a sale. The more inquiries, the better chance there will be a sale.

Again- I don't think the market is as bad as people want to say. I do think it is hard to sell an average or pet quality horse - or any pet for that fact right now, but quality is still in demand. Hence your recent purchases....
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I think you got one of the steals of the year with your new Destiny Colt! I was asked to price his mother last week- bred back to Destiny......does $15,000 sound like a respectable price to you?

Robin-LKF
 

Maxi'sMinis

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Exactly Robin. My point about the Texas sale was that people are placing the value of the horse on what it brings at a public sale not the quality of the horse I totally agree about the time of year, people want to reduce the mouths to feed for the winter especially in this economy.

with the titles on many of the horses listed at the Texas sale people will not be able to run them in to the ground if they don't bring a high price at this sale like they have done with the other sales this fall.
 
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Flaxenacres

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Now I do have to reply after Maxi brought up the dwarfs at the sale! I think it is terrible that people sell them.And I think It is ignorance, that some one will pay that for one. The one that would probably have the least amount of trouble, the owner even said something to this fact. She brought the least at $200. The other 2 brought $800. And the other $1000. And no owner said anything about them being dwarfs.I am talking from experiance, I have had 1 dwarf, and I have found her mother a pet home, I sold the stallion before the foal came. And I did inform the stallions new owner of this. I have adopted 2 other dwarfs so mine would have play mates.I have over $3000. in the one that was born here. And at 2 yrs old she is on daily Arthritist medicine. That will probably end up being her demise. One of them chokes alot which cost a couple hundred every time the vet comes out. And the third one Has other problems that I will be putting down soon. So I feel it is a shame that people sell them like this! I think they should find them the best home they can, because that person will be putting lots of money into them and they will not live to awful long. lorie
 

rcfarm

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Okay! WOW A lot different opinions here. Still no prices?? Myself I like to see the prices, horses with famous pedigree or not. If tou go to a auction you take the chance. Myself have bought 2 minis from miniature horse sales. 1 is not reg. I would not sell him for anything, he does not have a show record, but he is a Jam Up driving horse. I do not show at breed shows , do not strive to buy a horse that is the IN pedigree
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. I see a horse and like it I might buy it. They are all Beautiful to me. Of couse just another opinion.
 

Maxi'sMinis

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The Greencastle sale catalog was not posted on the internet so what is the sense of listing the prices if you don't have a catalog? If you went to the sale you have a catalog and the prices. The horses I stayed to see went from $50-1500(that was a no sale) but I left with my prize and hurried home before my husband left me because I came home with more chores.
 

georgiegirl

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I agree with those who want the prices posted. We have always done so in the past, when many of us could only dream of being fortunate enough to have the money to pay that much for a horse, and now just because prices are down, it is suddenly becoming a sin or a disservice to the industry to post them. I strongly disagree and feel we SHOULD keep posting results, as we at least we can then can see the industry's strong and weak times. Just like a marriage with a strong foundation..."for better or for worse".
Oh, come on people.

You think that people sit at the sales, with catalogs in hand, and dont write the prices down. Of course, those prices get passed around.

What is the big secret. If it is a private sale, of course it is no one's business besides the people involved. When it is a public sale, with the world invited, it is just that up for public information. Everyone can see what the prices are and word gets around.

If you dont want the prices divulged then dont have an auction.
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Royal Crescent

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Okay! WOW A lot different opinions here. Still no prices?? Myself I like to see the prices, horses with famous pedigree or not. If tou go to a auction you take the chance.
How about a response for those who think it is nice, fun or interesting to know? How about some stories from the sale?

BTW, the sale of dwarfs is sick, as you know that most that buy would not know what they are getting.
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Barb
 

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