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runamuk

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I have been thinking about this and the way I see it both registries are leaning towards more and more refined.......I have had this discussion with several well known breeders in the past ........Are we heading down the wrong road? More and more horses are becoming so refined as to look like yearlings even when mature .....I truly wonder if it is so great.......at what point do they become so refined that safe foaling becomes an issue....I know of a couple mares who did well in the ring but have never developed enough body to make it as broodmares the idea of foaling them out is just scary........

Many here comment on the dangers of foaling the short ones........have you considered that the more our horses move toward yearling refinement the more we may be setting up for even more breeding problems? Most here agree that we wouldn't breed yearlings....so why would we intentionally strive towards animals who when mature have that same yearling refinement?

Look at dairy cows they focused so much on MILK that they kinda forgot that to get milk they must have calves and dairy cattle are a pain .....my vet has mentioned on numerous occasions how much he loves long nights pulling calves
.........and there are breeds of sheep that are notorious for prolapsed uteruses and bad mothering....because in the rush to create the fastest growing lamb they kinda neglected the way lambs get here


So in the halter ring are we slowy harming our breed in our rush to "improve" and refine? When are they too refined?

This isn't a slam in any way to anyone.......I am someone who LOVES the ULTRA refined horses I just wonder if that desire is in the long run going to hurt the breed.......
 

Dr. Pam

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Nope, not going to be a problem. We can all go get big happy fluffy ponies to carry our transplanted babies and the moms won't miss a beat in the show ring.
 

runamuk

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Nope, not going to be a problem. We can all go get big happy fluffy ponies to carry our transplanted babies and the moms won't miss a beat in the show ring
alright silly I was looking for a conversation.....although with the advances in cloning we may never have to breed at all just pick our options and "poof"
 

Laura

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Dr. Pam said:
Nope, not going to be a problem.  We can all go get big happy fluffy ponies to carry our transplanted babies and the moms won't miss a beat in the show ring.

455166[/snapback]

::::Snicker:::::

I love you Pam


As for my take on the subject, *MY* mares/fillies are refined (for the most part), they also have a nice width of chest and hip with a longish leg, very refined LONG neck and a very small, petite head. This is what *I* like. The judges, fortunately, often like them too.

I have a baby doll built stallion (Jammer, aka Flying A Magic's Mr. Big Stuff) that is producing AWESOME babies for me (like Indian Bluff's Wine & Roses in 2004, Area 5 Champion A Weanling Mare & National Top Ten 28" and under weanling mare), but I'm careful about who I breed him to. Then again, his full brother is much larger, but also stunning & very refined...then there is their baby FULL sister..a mini QH supreme! Talk about a chest & rump!!! Their dam is VERY refined and tends to only carry her foals 10 months, that term for her to deliver her little tiny boned babies and it works for her. Even after 15 years, we are still occasionally surprised!

Refinement and narrow build, IMO, are very, very different things. I love a refined horse, but want to maintain that body and definition that I have tried to keep strong in my breeding program. I want mares that can show, breed and PRODUCE and RAISE winning foals who will go on to the same path...except that I do geld the MAJORITY of my boys, as I love really fantastic geldings
 

littlearab

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I 'm new to miniatures, but not to arabians.

I'm with you on this one. I have wondered at times if the breeding overly refinded and tiny minaitures is a good thing also.

Just like the breeding for overly level top lines,swan necked arabs messed up the arabian breed to a point. It can be pretty hard to find a arab with a nice back.. and rump. One built to use like they should be. Pretty does as pretty does. They might be nice to look at but they are pretty much useless. At least in what is seen a top blood lines by some.

Or how they breed QH to be so baulky with tiny feet. If any bred of horse is bred ONLY for halter classes it is bad news. Or the plaesure horse who drag their feet to the piont that they cna't keep shoes on them. Breeding any breed of horse to the extrem eis not good. IMHO

I like the cart type miniature better.... alittle more to them. being better put together with more bone. It does not make a horse prettier just because it's mre refind. So look like they have been starved to me... I know they are not.
 

Dr. Pam

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OK. I'll be serious. Sort of.

I have run into many newcomers who confuse "refinement" with "thin". They are new (mostly) to showing, and their horses are skin and bones because to them, that is refined. Then they are upset because they get the gate. A few get VERY nasty when they moan and groan about judges and ask why THEIR horse didn't place--and you *gently* bring up the horses lack of weight.

Sorry, soap box. Kind of like kids looking at models and thinking you have to be THIN to be pretty. I like refined--to a point. I just posted a picture of my QH build mare Spice--no one will call her elegant, but she has clean lines and a pretty head. I actually prefer a little more length of leg and neck--but I LOVE her!
 

runamuk

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I understand the thin vs refined quite well....and since I do not own these horses I cannot use them as examples of what I am talking about.......there are few horses out there that I have seen that take refinement to a new level these animals are gorgeous well built well fleshed BUT look like you could blow them over with a gust of wind........I see the ultra refined yearlings posted on here over and over with many choruses of oohs and ahhs ......if these yearlings are to become future breeding stock and happen to stay that refined it does get a bit scary........not saying this is happening anytime soon but thinking 10 -15-20 yrs from now .........
 

Mona

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runamuk said:
I understand the thin vs refined quite well....and since I do not own these horses I cannot use them as examples of what I am talking about.......there are few horses out there that I have seen that take refinement to a new level these animals are gorgeous well built well fleshed BUT look like you could blow them over with a gust of wind........I see the ultra refined yearlings posted on here over and over with many choruses of oohs and ahhs ......if these yearlings are to become future breeding stock and happen to stay that refined it does get a bit scary........not saying this is happening anytime soon but thinking 10 -15-20 yrs from now .........
455200[/snapback]

Can you PM or email me pics of the "too refined" versions of horses you are referring to? I have not yet seen a well-built refined mini that I thought was "too" refined. I guess maybe that is where the problem lies??? Maybe everyone has a different perception of what "too refined" is.
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]What I breed for and what I see in the ring are not too refined to reproduce however they are definitely more refined that what I bred even 5 years ago.... I like the arab national show horse look and movement in miniature and thats what I strive for .I want legs up to here and necks out to there. All my show horses have to be both halter and driving horses so I also have butts out the wazoo. I also think that lots of people confuse thin for refined. I want refined but thin and hippy is NOT refinement.[/SIZE]

Lyn
 

CountryHaven

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Dr. Pam said:
I have run into many newcomers who confuse "refinement" with "thin".  They are new (mostly) to showing, and their horses are skin and bones because to them, that is refined. 
455185[/snapback]

Sometimes its not just newcommers. In the recent MHW there is a stallion ad, and the first thing I thought was 'there's a perfect example of someone mistaking thin for refined', and it was not a necessarily young stallion either.
 

horsefeather

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Well, what the heck, haven't given my opinion in awhile
Not that anyone really listens (especially family
) but here goes. I must admit I like the more refined necks and heads. I like a horse who has a nice, high neck tie-in and actually shows a chest. However, I kinda agree with those that this does scare me a little also.
We have been showing minis for over 12 years (Q.H. for 30 yrs. before that) and I see the minis heading towards shetlands. Now, hold on, I own shetlands also, but it's becomming harder and harder to actually see the difference between minis and shetlands, at least at the AMHR shows. Now, when we first began showing minis, I wasn't attracted to the little, short legs that carried pretty big bodies around, so was sorta happy to see SOME shetland introduced, to lengthen the legs and give the body a neck. But what I have seen over the last several years is way too much attention (IMO) paid to necks, flat backs and heads, with virtually NO attention being paid to legs and feet.
Maybe because we come from a Q.H. background, but again, IMO, you need legs and feet, nice straight ones. I couldn't begin to count the horses I have seen win at shows (including Nationals) that could not pass the 'walk the white line' test. Good thing minis don't get drunk
I have also seen many, many minis placed that had no chest (older ones, not just yearlings), no V between legs and not much girth. OK, I'm done.


Pam

Edited to say, the filly in my avatar actually has a better tie-in then the picture, but still isn't what I prefer.
 
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rabbitsfizz

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OK I think we've noticed that thin does not = refined, even though there are always going to be people who don't get it. Now let's tackle "poorly conformed does not = refined!!! " Narrow horses are poorly conformed, they should not be winning. The Judges need to be bought new glasses and given another chance to look through the rules books!!!

And I have NEVER seen a correctly weighted, senior horse that a) looks like a yearling or b) looks like a "big" horse.

One of the reasons I think it is a complete waste of time to show or clip foals- of course they are going to look like "big horses" and therefore win, one of the differences between a horse and a pony is that pony breeds have an Adult outline and Horse breeds have an immature outline - in spite of the old chestnut being argued back and forth I can assure you that historically, it had little to do with size. Even in my lifetime all the height definitions have changed!!!
 
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Kendra

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I'm not sure I've ever seen a mature horse that looked like a yearling ... but I've seen far too many yearlings that looked like mature horses. I think we have a long way to go before "too refined" becomes a concern.
 
L

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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I am with kendra on this one. And i find it interesting i have seen very few (compared i guess to wht people on this thread have seen) of to narrow to refined horses as mature horses.

I have seen lots of somewhat narrow yearlings but that is to be expected yearlings still have plenty of growing and maturing to do.

I surely dont think that adding refinement and leg and movement to our breed will be its downfall
 

wcr

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I have been seriously into horses for about 45 years and have gone from Quarter horses to Paints to pintos to minis. Most of the breed registries have been started in my lifetime and I have watched as horses went from stock type to refined. I have also noticed the definate shift from halter horses vs performance horses and very few crossovers from one catagory to another as they get so specialized they can't compete against each other. I see this happening in minis now. There will be someplace to show your horse for everyone if you are realistic about where your horse fits in. Pretty heads and necks are a must for me and I think minis can improve greatly in that area. I am also breeding for the 1/3 body, 2/3 leg look and staying away from the 50/50 body style.
 

RMH

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I agree with WCR in that there is a definate separation of halter horses and performance horses occuring. And I find this very unfortunate. IMHO, it is sad when there are whole lines of horses that are shown til they are three, then retired to breeding stock to produce foals that will be shown til three, and so forth. We are ending up with those who can (performance horses) and those who can't (halter horses). What happened to actually enjoying the horses and really USING them? Is money the big reason people do this now? I got into horses because I just love the darn things. I have decided not to breed minis now, though, because I don't want to see them end up as little statues to make more little statues, or be abused under a harness (another issue totally. I show only AMHR, so I cannot speak for what is happening with AMHA. But the direction that AMHR is heading really disheartens me. I know that money can be the only factor for breeding and showing horses, in any breed, for some people.

As with any statement, I know there are exceptions. There are still plenty of people breed versatile horses (right now) and I hope those numbers will increase, not continue to decrease.
 

Danielle_E.

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Well RMH I totally agree with you. I am watching the mini breed and seeing that it is going down the same route as the arabians did and that is NOT A GOOD THING. There is too much emphasis being placed on "halter" just like the arabians at the moment, more refinement, more length of neck to the extreme, super level top line, etc. What will people do to achieve what they perceive to be "the ultimate halter horse". Will we possibly end up with owners/trainers that MUST win at all costs even to the detriment and well-being of the animal as has happened and is happening in the arabian show world today? It's sad, and I worry that is EXACTLY the road that is being travelled and because of the sheer numbers of minis being bred to achieve this, instead of more selective breeding, the market will be flooded major and you will see many many minis at rescues or worse going to through slaughter auctions or just left out in fields with little human contact or care and starving. We have to take a lesson from what has transpired in the arabian breed back in the 1980's when you couldn't buy an arabian for under $100,000 - the marketing that was going on and the high number of breedings happening and now, well one of the reasons when I look at rescues I first look at the arabians, hence the reason I took in my 29 year old arabian mare. I hope history will prove me wrong but I don't have a good feeling on seeing what is happening out there.
 

disneyhorse

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Well I have to disagree... I am seeing that Driving is really starting to GROW... and halter is a lesser focus for a lot of farms!!! They are seeing that their horses have to do a lot more than JUST halter!

Andrea
 

susanne

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As for miniature horses becoming too refined to foal...isn't this something that will by definition take care of itself? If they're too delicate to foal, then they can't reproduce, and therefore cannot become more refined than that natural cutoff point...unless we do as Dr. Pam suggested...
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]Im with Disney . I am seeing many more horse in driving classes now than ever before. The horses I have shown in halter are learning how to drive. My 3 year old mare has been top 3 at nationals in halter and will be shown in roadster this year. My up coming halter horses as they turn 3 will be shown in driving as well because I am breeding for a versatile horse. the first class I ever placed in at nationals was a versatility class! Thats what I believe our horses should be able to do, therefore that is the goal of my program.There is no reason a halter horse should not also be able to perform. An exceptional horse should do both.[/SIZE]

Lyn
 

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