Where is all of this going?

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Marty, even tho I think most of us are running a "non profit" with our horses...its the enjoyment and love they bring us that cant be measured in $$$$. I also wanted to add...I think anyone wanting to breed mares..should look at it like, they will be adding to there herd and have the means to keep and maintain the foal, rather then sell it to anyone who comes along for little or nothing. thats my opinion. Corinne
 
I am not breeding any mares for 2008 since I think there are too many nice Minis out there now that are bringing crummy prices.There always seems to be a good market for the very high priced horse and for the very cheap horse.Most of us fall in the middle range which is fast disappearing. Wanted to add that I do know of big show farms that have lots of foals and often take mutiple horses to local auctions to dump them.Many are from national champion show sires&dams.They just didn't turn out as planned. I think the biggest downfall of the Miniature horse breed is just how adorable the foals are.Why would anyone not want 1 of them when it is dog sized and so adorable.They get it, the novelty wears off and then there is another to be placed or rescued. Educate prospective buyers and don't breed what you can't keep if the right buyer doesn't come along.
 
I am very concerned about the way the miniature horse industry has gone for two years now. I heard that many miniatures at a sale in OH a few weeks ago were not even getting any bids, and several went for $100!!!!! It is NOT just the pet quality horses that are not selling. Horses that would easily get 20,000 - show horses or mares bred to the best stallions from very prominent farms - are listed for 12,000 with absolutely no interest.

Circumstances change for people and there are times that we must think about selling some of our miniatures. I am definitely not into the miniatures to make money, but I have several for sale right now for personal reasons. However, I will not take less than what I purchased my horses for, and I prefer to hang on to them, rather than taking a loss or selling them to questionable owners. Hopefully, the market will improve.

I think the biggest factor is the economy. Gas, hay, feed, shavings are all ridiculously high. To care for your horses properly, immunizations, farrier and dental work, and vet bills are very costly. I always freak in January when I add up all the bills, including training and showing fees, that I spend in a year. People are struggling and horses are not a necessity (that is debatable as they are for my sanity:)

Not sure what the answer is, but figuring out ways to promote the miniature horse and developing interest in the breed would definitely be a start!
 
I was concerned about this just a few years ago and stated it on this forum and now it's come to fruition. I am not surprised in the least and as someone said it's going to get worse before it gets better. When you see more and more minis in the "kill pens" and that is what I am seeing with my work with some rescues, all breed rescues, than you know there is a mega problem. My personal opinion is not the large breeder with quality horses, because they usually keep their horses if they can't get their price, it's not the small backyard breeder that has quality horses, because they will also keep their animal if they can't get their price... it's the breeder that has MANY minis of inferior quality (pet stock) that breeds MANY each year and is flooding the market with minis of less than stellar quality at LOW prices just in order to make some money or recoup some of their money. I have seen these operations and am NOT impressed. You come away from these types of farms, after looking at their stock, mares and stallions and think "WHAT ARE THEY THINKING????". That is where the problem lies. JMHO
 
I think many people are being caught in a squeeze here. Local horse sales are selling BIG papered NICE horses for $30, $40 and $50 or no bids at all.....how can I convince my 26" gelding is worth $500 much less $2000?

So, you have to go with what your local market will afford. You can sell for $1000 but then the buyer can't afford shipping....

I did have one lady who wanted my Buckeroo bred colt for $150....I priced bottom line at $500. He was worth much more but like someone said, the buyer comes back and says they could buy horses all day for $150....so I told them to go for it. If he is not worth $500 to anyone else, he can sit right here and I will train him to drive.

No, there is NO money to be made in minis, but we are not alone in this problem. We have a friend who raises top notch Tennessee walkers and he says in 16 years, this is the worst market he has ever seen.
 
The past 2 years I have come home with so many horses, and dirt cheap prices, and at one time these were very pricey mares, I brought them home ...only to give them a lasting home and not to be resold, only because it was either me or they didnt care what happened to the horse. No horse deserves..no love or attention in its life. I dont care if its a $100,000. show horse or a $50.00 pet~~ they all deserve to be loved and treated with human kindness, along with necessary vet care, and have a barn to call home!
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Well said!
 
"I am more than willing to take in "free" or low priced horses. They need to go somewhere don't they? Don't they deserve a chance at a good home?"

Ditto Minimule :aktion033: :aktion033:

I also agree the cost of the horse does not determnie the quality of home it will have.

Amanda
 
I have been in horse business all my life. Different breeds. First work horses, thoroughbreds, quarter horses, minis, shetlands. All were decent to good or above stock. The bottom line, as I see it, is that the horse breeds all go in cycles, sort of like the economy and the stock market. I can remember many years ago when you could barely touch a shetland, then the bottom dropped out, and they were being given away. Now, all that has changed again. Thoroughbreds were and are the same. If the econony picks up, so do the sales. If you are a serious lover of horses, and your breed, you must stick it out, and eventually the prices will level out. Everyone knows the saying that is so very appropriate, "You don't have to be crazy to be in the horse business, but it sure as he?? helps!"

Oh, and Cathy, yes the farmers have been subsidized into growing corn to make ethinol, but as in the tobacco "lies", the corn market is not doing as well as expected. Prices have already started to drop on corn because of overproduction. That too will correct itself in time. As is also true in horses, it is supply and demand! No one true answer to any of the problems of selling miniatures, but several. Economy, supply and demand, and cycles.
 
I think the biggest factor is the economy. Gas, hay, feed, shavings are all ridiculously high.
I agree that is a big factor but it started more than two years ago. I remember posters here blaming the economy back in the 90's for the downslide in horse prices while others of us kept saying on here there are TOO many horses being bred period. In the meantime those that refused to face the facts maintained their current habits saying this is temporary - prices will stableize & even go back up - I'm not leaving MY mares open !!!!.............................. It is time that the miniature horse breeders become more like the big horse owners (most). Have a few miniature horses to show & or just enjoy & stop concentrating on breeding in numbers!!!!! How you can teach responsible horse ownership I wish I knew! :eek: The time has long passed to end personal selfish greed & start thinking about the horses welfare!
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: JMHO
 
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In my area in east Tennessee we are having a terrible drought and horses are suffering for it. I agree that there are many problems affecting the horse market (not just minis)feed cost, gas, disposal income, loss of affordable land, the aging baby boomers etc. I don't see that there is one group responsible for the overpopulation of horses in this country. There are bad "big show breeders", "backyard breeders" and "small hobby farms" and there are good breeders in all catagories. The only way that I see that the quality of live for horses to improve is for horses owners and breeders to admit there is a problem and then work togather to help solve it. I am not sure how to solve the overpopulation but I do think that reducing the number of foals born each year is a great start. There has been a recent push for thoroughbred breeders to be more responsible for the horses they breed when their racing careers are over. If all breeders would look past the cute foals and think about the 20+ years that the horse could live and who will want the horse as times goes by. Maybe a few less horses would be born each year.
 
Ok my thoughts, not that they are worth much but what I see.

We are not a big time operation, and don't plan to be but I insist that the foals I have are to the best of my ability. I send my mares out to Top breeders all over the US, we show, we promote and guess what.. not every foal is a OH MY GOSH foal. I realized that when I starting breeding but as was mentioned not every foal can be. BUT I will do what I have to, to make sure the foals that aren't oh my gosh aren't breeding. I had a mare that I had the ovaries removed on because I knew if I sold her at $500.00 with her bloodlines someone would bred her. And it took me 2 yrs to place her and because she wasn't breedable. You know what the vet bill was double what I was asking for her. I wouldn't have had a problem keeping her here. No hormones to deal with. And my colts are getting gelded if I don't think they can cut the mustard. I'm having another gelding party soon. Why because I don't trust people to geld them after they leave here.

I as a breeder have the final responsibility to make sure I help the breed. I could say you take the colt home and geld him and he is $500.00 and guess what he doesn't get gelded and 2 yrs later they are breeding him and there is nothing I can do about it after he leaves the farm. Yes it is a expense and I never make a cent on our horses but it is my responsibility to geld not the person who says they will and doesn't geld them.

Or I could take them to auction and guess what they bring $100.00 or less. NOT. I have never taken any of my horses to auction except the Hertiage Sale, which is a quality sale and Little King does a wonderful job- because I don't feel I am doing the horses justice. I will hold on to them and get them trained to drive or whatever and hopefully someone will realize that they are a nice horse at a reasonable price (because at the price of training or conditioning I am not making a cent). I will not give away a horse for $250.00. It costs more than that to register and feed the mare for a year. And my experience is the people looking for the $250.00 horses want them delivered for free. Yea right.

And to continue to improve the breed and my program I offer horses that may not fit in here but are still quality horses that I spent a long time researching. Honesty with selling, I feel is the most important item. I feel alot of horses have been not represented to the full truth and that hurts the market also. I just sold a QH and the people told me I was the first honest person they had dealt with. Very sad. I figure honesty is the best policy and a person needs to know the whole truth on the horse to make a decision. They drove 10 hours to get her. And were tickled pink. That is what is all about.

So here we believe in education, gelding, spaying, attempting to bred the best mares to the best stallions, not giving horses away as their value is more than $250.00, helping with transportation as able, referring to others if we don't have the type of horses someone wants and HONESTY.
 
Well done and well said Kitty!!! You rock!!
 
Its hard with the prices. Too many minis out there. That's why I keep a small herd. But lower prices may help them be sold. It cost me over $500 to get a filly here from Texas to Utah. :new_shocked: Shipping prices are outrageous! So having horses for cheaper may help sell them so that someone can actually afford to ship them to thier place.

But I'm with most of you, lot of people breed becuase they have 10 mares and a stallion. There's no need to breed them all if you can't sell last year's foal crop. I have 1 mare pregnant. That's plenty for me. I'd rather choose to show my mares than breed them becuase they are female. Just my opinion.
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That lady that has pregnant double registered mares for $250 is just crazy. Why is she giving them away?
 
I dont think there is ever an easy answer to this problem. For me we have a small herd , breed a few mares a year and then spend alot of our time EDUCATING the public about horse ownership. We spend alot of time (not paid) teaching 4-H and the general public as any responsible horse person should. HOw about working to create a stronger market?? Is the only thing these little horses can do is reproduce? NO they make wonderful therapy horses on MANY levels, they are great for teaching the handicapped, they can bring joy to many many peoples lives without EVER producing a foal. They make wonderful companions to human and horse alike. I think we need to broaden our market and get these little guys a job market they can be strong in!! Im not saying to breed more, Im saying lets find more things to do wtih them and PROMOTE them for the sake of our wonderful breed. Ok jumping off of box now!!
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It seems like so many people get their first mini one day, and are breeders the next.
To my eyes as a mini "newbie" that's EXACTLY what I see. I bought a stallion for $250; was he worth it? HECK yes... in fact he's built so nicely I wouldn't mind breeding him. But have I? Have I even advertised him, offered him, or even got involved with mini clubs to show him off? Nope. I see so many people breeding left and right its just not worth it to me. Someday, I might get myself a matching mare and breed a foal, but it'll be mine, and someday is very far away
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I've had him a year now, and he's the best $250 I've ever spent.
 
I would love to know what people are getting for say an average colt. Asking price and selling price are 2 different things. It also seems different areas of the country and times of the yr make a difference. I think people have less disposable income and "luxery" items are not top proirity.
 
As some have already said it comes down to Economics 101: supply and demand.

I, too, would love to see much more education and awareness for all companion animals (from equines to canines and everything in between.) Sadly, though, we live in an instant-gratification, throw-away society. :no: I don't mean to sound cynical, but it's true. People also seem to always want something for nothing (like "this animal has to pay for itself!) Odd how it happens primarily with animals...I mean, people don't say "this car has to pay for itself!"
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: Sorry, I'm rambling.
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Since I'm not a breeder and don't show--mine are strictly pets--do the registries do much in the way of community outreach, education, and awareness? I suppose that might be a conflict of interest; the more registered horses, the more money they make. Just curious.

The oil industry seems to do the best job at controlling supply and demand...or at least that's what they tell us! :ugh:
 
Well, good animal people treat all their animals well because they deserve it. If I added up "everything", my most expensive horse was my only "free" horse -- my riding horse of 13 years who I recently had to put to sleep.

But, the reality truly is that often horses who sell for just a couple hundred end up in bad situations, either directly or before long. Thank God for the people that do what they can to keep that from happening, and know that a horse is worth more than money.

Also, though, some minis -- based on what dollars can buy -- really are "worth" in terms of purchase price just a couple hundred dollars. Take that kind of mare and that kind of stallion and what do they make??? USUALLY, more of the same. Especially in the hands (or barns) of breeders who just can't see what they really have. There's so much of that "in minis" -- the inability to see past colors or cute faces.

I have no answers, just observations and hope.
 
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Very well said Jill ! Yep, color and cute faces get bred with nice personality and here we come to prices.

Some people want charity prices and honestly can't understand why horses are high priced. I don't want charity. A good horse can be a great investment!

A good horse cost money a great horse cost lots of money

Anita
 
The BEST thing about Minis? They are the horse for EVERYONE!!!!

The WORST thing about Minis? They are the horse for EVERYONE!!!

Anyone can own a Mini. They are much cheaper to keep then full sized horses. They are far less intimidating to someone who has always wanted a horse but can't handle a full size one. People that are really NOT horse people are tempted by Minis because they think they are similiar to owning a dog. They don't know what makes for good conformation in a horse or what makes one horse worth far more than any other. They think they are cute and want a tiny baby to cuddle.

Example: I have a horse boarded here on my farm. The people that own him think he is just wonderful. They bred him themselves. They showed me photos of his "beautiful" mom and dad they used to own but have since sold. It would NEVER have occured to me to breed either of those horses let alone to each other! He is a dwarf. He has the head and neck of a 10 hand pony, the body of a 37" Mini and the legs of a 30" Mini. His back legs are deformed. His cannons are normal size and the bone above his hock is about 1/3 the length it should be. He has difficulty walking. He is 4 years old and a STALLION. When they asked me about boarding him here I had not met him yet and they suggested that they would be willing to trade a breeding to him in exchange for a years board. They told me how beautiful he was and tiny!!! AND BLACK AND WHITE!!! Just gorgeous they gushed. Well he is black and white.......

I am working very hard here to educate people on Minis. Whatever I can do to help people learn more BEFORE they purchase is my goal. This forum is helpful. The Miniature Horse Club of Ontario to which I belong is very helpful as well. The Rider newspaper here in Ontario has given me the opportunity to try to educate by publishing my articles. As responsible breeders I think it is important that we don't just sell our horse to the first person offering money. We need to promote our horses as MORE than just baby makers.

Just in case anyone is wondering: I did NOT take the breeding in exchange for board! I am trying hard to get them to geld this horse and have tried to show them the difference between him and the other horses on my farm and explain why he should NOT even be considered as a breeding animal.
 
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