What would you do next?

[wingnut]

Update: Vet came out late this afternoon to do the blood draw. She was shocked at how much Cha Cha has changed (for the worse) since she saw her in mid April. While many horses with Cushings have weight issues and are usually older, she feels that it is most likely going to be a Cushings issue that comes back in the blood work. She's doing the Lyme test as well...agreed it was good idea to cover all our basis. The blood work will go out tomorrow to Cornell. It will be early next week before we're likely to start hearing back regarding any of the results. Until then, we'll continue as we are for the moment. She also agreed the high calorie paste was a good idea. Once the results come back, I will request the vitamin B shot (she didn't have any on the truck with her and I didn't think to call her before she came to let her know that I would like her to have one). We're both actually hoping its Cushings because there's a definitive treatment path. Otherwise, we could be left scratching our heads trying to figure out what's the next steps. I'll post a new post when I get word back on the results.

Thanks again every one!

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Those of you who have been around long enough have heard me talk about or post about my 14 yr old hard keeper. While my other 5 horses are all at body scores of 6-8 (one probably closer to 9!), my hard keeper just looks awful. A body score of 3 or 4 at best.

She's also a picky eater. She had been given up to 2lbs of Omolene 300 each day because that's what she would consistently eat. After the annual vet visit in April, she quit eating her grain. A followup conversation with the vet and we decided to treat her for ulcers. She's frequently had what could be considered ulcer symptoms off and on. We started her on a daily 250lb dose of GastroGuard. We're on day 28 of 30. I pulled her off the grain due to recommendations of grain/molasses being contraindicated for potential ulcers. She wasn't eating much at that point anyway, so it wasn't a big change to do so. She was also given up to 12 hours of pasture time to allow her as much forage as possible. Overnight, she was given alfalfa mixed hay. She's also getting a high quality ration balancer supplement once a day.

In addition to her low body weight/condition, she's only shedding a minimal amount. While 3 of my girls who have not been clipped are completely or nearly completely shed out on their own, the hard keeper is still quite furry. Her coat is dull and dry. Her overall behavior is mostly dull and listless. I can tell that since pulling her off the Omolene completely, she's dropped weight. She has a definite back ridge and hip points, which have become more prominent since the removal of her feed. No ribs showing but can very easily be felt. If she was in a pasture by herself with none of her herd mates visible, I could see where a passerby could make the mis-judgement that she's not being taken care of.

To add to the mix, if I try and stall her (say overnight with her own huge pile of hay and a big bucket of fresh water), she gets stressed and will eat/drink very little. If I leave her loose, any hay left out is devoured by the other 5. Starting tonight, I'm going to start stalling the other 5 and leaving her loose with a supply of hay AND access to the pasture if she wants it. And of course, lots of fresh water.

I've already had discussions with the vet about next steps. We've discussed more bloodwork to test for Cushings and to test her thyroid levels. My question today is, if this was your horse, what else would you do? What other bloodwork/tests? Would you try a feed that you've heard works wonders for a horse like this? What other management solutions would you try (round the clock pasture, no pasture but unlimited hay, etc.)?

I've been trying to get this horse to a decent condition for nearly 2.5 years now. I'm beyond frustrated and the worry is driving me crazy. I don't want a horse of mine to look like she does. I'll try to get some updated photos later if that would help (I know it usually does).

Thanks in advance.

 

[chandab]

Knowing what I know, now; Test her for Cushings. If nothing else, you've eliminated that possibility.

I've had Jasper for about 3 years, he was given to me, he's looked awful since I got him. We tried tons of things, he'd look good part of the year then fall apart and look awful. He never had laminitis issues, but did have a bit of a long, shaggy coat that was slow to shed, he was thin most of the time, had chronic external parasite issues, and, he also had chronic abcesses. Last November, due to the location of most of his abcesses, we thought he might have a bad tooth or a jaw bone infection; we did a basic blood panel (no test specific to Cushings) and x-rayed his jaw. His x-rays came back clean, but his blood work was a mess; liver enzymes off the charts, elevated glucose (no kidding he was on a sweet feed to keep him eating) and more out of whack that I didn't get specifics on from the vet. The blood work pointed to Cushings, so we started him on pergolide, dropped the sweet feed (well that was done sooner than getting the blood tests back, and that alone started helping), and when we retested him in April, 90% of his blood work was back to normal. With in a month or so of starting the meds and his low sugar/starch diet, his chronic abcesses cleared up and he had energy and attitude. I did have to clip him this spring, but his new summer coat is quite nice, and we'll see if the meds help his coat in the future. When he was so thin, I did feed him some rice bran pellets and that helped his weight. His current diet is a low sugar/starch pellet, soaked beet pulp, grass mix hay, a little pasture time and his supplements (flax, and vit e for Cushings supplements, vit A per vet for skin issues; ulcer meds and probiotic for his other issues).

I gotta get going, if I think of something else, I'll get back to you.

 

[targetsmom]

What I have tried in somewhat similar situations were soaked alfalfa cubes (if they like them of course) because they are good for ulcers if that happens to be the problem. I have also used slow hay feeders because sometimes they will eat better that way - especially if they are picky. I would for sure test for Cushings, and in a high Lyme Disease area test for that. We also tried Bonnie Fogg, the animal communicator, and treated one for the sinus infection she indicated was an issue. Ruby DID eat better while on the SMZs. Now I hate to discourage you, but neither of the two minis that we had these issues with survived. Believe me, I know what you are going through I wish you the best.

 

[wingnut]

I should probably add that she's been floated yearly. Our equine dentist says she's got the best teeth he's ever seen in a mini (though his experience is somewhat limited with minis). We had a basic panel of blood work done in April and the only thing that was what you could consider "off" was her protein levels (which is one thing that my vet seemed to point to the ulcer theory). I worm as recommended by our vet on a rotational basis, bi-monthly based on our current setup (# of horses, close proximity, etc.).

 

[wingnut]

Targetsmom: We are definitely in a high Lymes zone. My 18 yr old daughter developed a classic "bullseye" rash last week and is currently on a 21 day antibiotics treatment plan. I'll ask the vet to add that to the list. I have also seriously contemplated contacting Bonnie. That's possibly my next step after we get the next round of blood work back.

Thanks Chanda for you input as well.

My vet is going to be here on Wed or Friday (awaiting final day) to draw blood. Keep the ideas coming!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Has your horse been scoped to see if ulcers were present? I had a horse to your description and he was on the purina mini feed and stopped eating, dull coat, bad attitude, loosing weight. We were treating for ulcers but never worked because he never had ulcers, but he ate the new grain just fine. Has she had any blood work done and were the results normal? I'm thinking she is probably at least anemic and would give her some red cell. I was also thinking Cushings and definitively check her thyroid.

You may want too look at a high fat feed supplement like Healthy GLO or maybe a good senior feed like SeniorGLO by ADM. IMO I would also avoid the sweet feed.

 

[wingnut]

JMS Miniatures: No, we didn't have her scoped. It was cheaper/easier to treat then to scope/treat. All her other "standard panel" bloodwork was normal. She didn't show anemic at all. She literally refused everything else we tried to feed her, thus the sweet feed. At that time, it was the only thing she would eat consistently. And even then it wasn't 100%. I've tried high fat supplements to limited success (i.e., Purina's Ultium...she walked way from her bucket, a powdered supplement from SmartPak...mostly successful, a pelleted supplement...started off eating it well, then started eating around it...literally could eat the sweet feed and leave the supplement!).

A senior feed is also something we've tried but may go back to again. She also refuses anything to do with beet pulp. That's part of what's so frustrating. I have to buy 50lb bags of stuff to try and then if she won't eat it, my others are too plump to give it to and use it up. Lots of $$$ down the drain in the process with this one. Still, I'm determined to find AN ANSWER. I refuse to give up now! LOL..

 

[MountainWoman]

I can't speak to the medical issues but we had a severely malnourished, underweight skeleton of a horse come into my boarding barn. We started him on beet pulp and alfalfa cubes and free choice hay. Also added in the supplement SmartGain4 from SmartPak. The feeding program definitely worked. I don't know how your stalls are set up but is it possible to stall this mini with just one other mini so she has company and won't be stressed and won't be pushed away from the food? Can you create a separate area for her with electric fencing so she can feel as though she's still a part of the herd and have her own food supply? So sorry she's going through these problems and she's very lucky to have you.

 

[valshingle]

I would do whatever your vet recommends. I agree that thyroid testing is probably indicated. And probably Cushings (although she doesn't sound like the Cushings pony I once had). Has the vet considered food allergies or chronic pain?

Feeds I would try are: Equine Senior, Ultium, and Equine Jr. I would also have alfalfa hay out for her 24/7. Also try some mashes.

When I've had a picky eater, the vet had me put out small amounts of several different feeds - kind of like a buffet.

 

[MountainWoman]

Woops, just saw your girl doesn't like beet pulp. Have you tried hand feeding it to her mixed with some delicious mash? Also just wondered if there are holistic practitioners in your area? You might want to contact them as well. I've also had acupuncturists work on my animals for varying reasons with great success. Just a thought.

 

[wingnut]

Mountainwoman: yes, I have considered other holistic approaches. Once we have the next round of blood work back, that's something I want to followup on.

Smartgain4 is the supplement I have from Smartpak. Its probably what's she's eaten the best. If/when we find a feed that she will eat (not a sweet feed), I'll try adding that in again. When she's stalled, all 5 other horses generally stay right with her. Either in the stall next to her or just outside of her stall. Our setup is two run-in sheds (with tack rooms on each) that have been divided and doors/gates added to create formal stalls. These two sheds face each other with about 12ft between them. Hand feeding her is not likely to be feasible as she is the one horse we have that would simply like her humans to leave her alone...always. She's the one I can't catch easily....but she's a perfect lady when you do. The best plan I think would be if we could get another shelter, even a small one, to put IN the pasture or dry lot so she could be out there, have shelter and water around the clock. Right now, just purchasing a small shelter outright or even trying to build one is something we would have trouble managing both $$ and time wise. A daughter going to private college in August is draining the bank!

I do think though that stalling the OTHER horses (overnight) and leaving HER loose with her "buffet" and pile of hay or pasture access may be a good alternative. The other horses would tolerate the stalling better, I think. One stall would be left open for her to use as she wants/needs.

Valshingle: Yep, considering a buffet too.

Very much appreciate the input and thought you guys are putting into this!

ETA: I wanted to also add that she *IS* the boss mare. EXCEPT! she won't protect her bucket and will not fight for her hay ration on a regular basis. Its weird!

 

[JAX]

I have found this to be interesting when dealing with a picky eater. If I remember correctly it was written for prople trying to get their horses to eat their supplements but I used it to get mine to eat beet pulp. i started with a small handful of soaked beet pulp sprinkled with a different flavor until I found one she liked. Once I found one then I just SLOWLY added more and more beet pulp into the feed until she got used to it and then decided she loved her wet sloppy meals. Maybe one or more of these flavors will get your girl interested in a feed of your choice or at least some beet pulp???

http://www.shotgunranch.me/Picky%20Eaters.pdf

And I agree she should be checked for Cushings. Has your vet talked to you about other available drugs for ulcers besides just Omeprazole? Succeed helped a mare of mine when nothing for ulcers was helping... couldnt tell you why though.

Good Luck

 

[Mona]

The beet pulp is objectionable by most horses when first starting them on it. I agree with starting out slowly and leave it with her for a fair while to nibble on, rather than taking it away right away and pushing something else her way when she turns her nose up at the beet pulp. Looking forward to hearing the results of the thyroid and cushings testing. Best wishes!!

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We are going through this with a four year old! She looks AWFUL. She has her choice of Mini feed, an alfalfa based complete pellet, whole oats and beet pulp. She has free run of the area in front of the one barn, on grass, where she can see and touch two different groups of horses, but they cannot steal her food. She also has free choice coastal hay AND alfalfa. She has free roam into the feed room, where she can snack on anything she wants. She gets rantidine and probios. And she STILL looks awful.

I read an article in EQUUS last year about a mare that had renal acidosis- she looked fine, but just stopped eating. The cure is baking soda, so now we started Mikki on that, too.

She did this last year, too. We did all the same things we're doing now and she did pick up. We had her at our vet's and all the tests were inconclusive.

SO.. now here we are again. All our others horses are pork-chops and she is just wasting away.

 

[Riverrose28]

You guys are not alone, I bought one that was thin but had a big belly, thought it was worms. When I got her she wouldn't even eat grain, only grass hay, and wouldn't touch alfalfa pellets, but will eat bagged alfalfa, but only on her terms, which are, she must be in with her herd. When I stall her, even with others she only picks. She is low man on the pecking order and very depressed acting most of the time. My vet looked at her in March and said she didn't think she was dangerously thin, and didn't do any blood work. Maybe it is time for me to get the blood work done.

Wingnut, please keep us posted on your girls progress as it seems like several of us could use the info.

 

[wingnut]

Riverrose: If nothing else, I'm glad I posted again about this mare because it really helps to know I'm not alone! The vet is coming tomorrow to do the blood draw. I'm going to have her do the Cushiongs, thyroid and Lymes. I would guess I'll find out something on Friday/Monday.

Last night I stalled everyone BUT her. I left out a bucket with some of the last Purina Mini feed, and the fat supplement pellets I have (Legends Omega Plus by SS). I left out a large pile of the alfalfa mix hay we use. The pasture gate was also open to her. I left them around 8:30pm.

This morning I went out just after 7am. The bucket was empty and about 1/3rd of the hay was gone. She was in her open stall keeping dry as we had rain come in today. Because I don't have a shelter in the pasture, I'm stalling her for a few hours to give the other horses a break, then I will restall them, and start the cycle over. It means more work for me, but that's the way it goes.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Jill]

Along with the vetting recommendations, I would consider using a high calorie supplement that you can syringe into her mouth a couple-few times a day. They both get additional calories into a horse and stimulate the appetite... here's one product I have used with great results:

Nich Quick-Start™

Contains 180 Calories per fl. oz.

Promotes weight gain, combats dehydration and maintains electrolytes balance in recovering animals. Provides fat and calorie density for increased stamina and energy in a low dose form. Quick-Start™ promotes the appetite and is highly palatable to horses, sheep, dogs, cats, and cattle.

http://www.jeffersequine.com/nich-quick-start/camid/EQU/cp/0032410/cn/2364/

 

[wingnut]

Jill!!! Thank you!!! Along with finding out what is actually wrong, this kind of product will help me get those extra calories IN her. She's my easiest horse to give "meds" too. Once I have her in a stall, she calmly accepts my putting a syringe tube in her mouth, whether it be the GastroGuard or worming meds. I'll check with the vet tomorrow, but I really think this could be a good solution in the near term until we get things figured out.

 

[Jill]

I'm glad you're going to try it! I really think it was a true life saver for a situation we dealt with last year

 

[Allure Ranch]

I stall her.... and place another companion horse in the barn next to her verses leaving her out. Then you can monitor her better. Have the vet give her a B-12 injection to help boost her system. Keep her on the Gastrogard. Give her Ranitidine 150 mg morning and evening in addition to the Gastrogard. Place her on a pelleted feed like Strategy Healthy Edge.

I'm sure that she's wormed regularly. However, it's been noted that horses are beginning to build up a resistance to wormers. Have her stool checked just to make certain that she doesn't have any issues.

I had a mare Alamos Sir's Elegant Fawn that had some issues two years ago. This was the treatment protocol that we used for her and it worked. Unfortunately, she had went from a healthy body score to just a shell of herself. Presently she's back to her old self and completely fine.

Best wishes.....