What Type Of Dewormer?

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Panacur is Fenbendazole- so any horse that was "allergic" (and this has never been heard of so I would strongly advise you to inform the manufacturer) would also be allergic to Fenbendazole. Worm counts do NOT pick up on encysted small strongyles and they are the ones that will kill your horse with almost no warning at all, and worm counts do not pick up on Tapeworms, although there is, now, a separate test for Tapeworms. Whatever else you do you do HAVE to worm for Tapes and encysteds at least once, ideally twice a year. If your horse appears to have a reaction to the five day course of Fenbendazole it is most probably because it has a heavy worm infestation and I would advise you to get it checked. Vets are not always the best people to ask about worming horses, they are often a bit vague and rely on leaflets sent to them. I would rather work it all out form the Internet in this particular case, as the information is all out there to glean.

Anything longer than eight week cycles is pointless as it will help build a resistance to the chemical by under worming. Strongid , especially the every day one, I do not like and will not use. There is already quite a high resistance in some areas, which means you are under worming every other time, which cannot be a good thing. I use only Ivermectin, every weight weeks. In spring and autumn I also use (as well as, never instead of) the five day panacur and Praziquantel. That seems to get almost everything. I never, ever rely on "not seeing worms" I would also not rely on a microscope unless you have training in what to look for. Encysteds show on NO test.

Worming needs to be done regularly and accurately and I am not changing to worm counts any time soon! Once a year, one count per field. If anything in a field needs doing, they ALL need doing. I do not harrow a field that is being grazed, I harrow the hay field and leave it. The fields I am grazing are harrowed, weed killed and then swept up and burned. That way the horses go back onto clean pasture to foal. My mares are wormed up to foaling, so they do not need extra worming after foaling- the wormer will not be passed through the milk to the foal, but it will be passed in the blood through the placenta. I worm foals at ten days with Fenbendazole- this is roughly when they start to graze seriously and when I start offering them feed.
 
I've been pondering the dewormer topic for a few days now. I've looked at documents from our vet hospital. I realized I had no clue what those reports mean. I was following instructions, without really looking at the reports other than to find obvious things like when they mixed up Baby's sample with Nicky's sample.

I would collect the samples, take them in, and then follow the vet deworming instructions; then I'd follow up with more poop samples. It's been a couple years now. The egg counts are pretty similar, everytime, and I'm getting a bit dubious about deworming results (resistance.)

Nicky always has really high counts--he's old; he's been dewormed for years, so maybe more time to develop resistance? (we're talking egg counts up to 2,000, dropping to the 1,200 range after 5-day panacur, for instance.)
Coco is much lower, in the 300 range (initially, prior to deworming.)
Baby is lesser to the tune of 200 range (initially, prior to deworming.)

I had the husband order some slides for the microscope. I'm not going to base any decision on my (lack of) expertise at peering at horse poop. But I'm not terribly convinced that what we're doing now is worthwhile; not to mention it's a smidge expensive (and inconvenient) to pick poop and keep paying to administer dewormer and then have such lackluster results.

I don't harrow anything. Harrowing, for me, was an excuse to let the poop pile up, on the premise that we could drag it around elsewhere later. In our climate, that just wasn't working; I suspect we were mounding up parasite hatching areas. So, I've been hiking my gimpy butt out there every day to pick up everything around the barn. And at a minimum, I've been going out every other day to shovel horse apples out in the pasture. ..every last one I could find. Perhaps, I've been wasting my time. I don't know.
 
This is an interesting topic. For the last two years, I have been deworming using the "new" protocols recommended by my vet. I really trust him, and I think this is essential. If you don't trust your vet, or don't think the vet knows what he/she is doing, it is hard to do something that is radically different from what most of us have been doing for years. I also think that reading up on the current science is very important in making informed decisions. There is a lot of good articles online. Sometimes we think we know things that turn out to be wrong.

AngC, best of luck in your frustrating situation.
 
This response is AGAIN LONG... Java time!!

I can say some things on this one, too. SORRY - not trying to be a know-it-all or bossy... I've just learned some new things myself and in all actuality as time goes on we all should be learning new things as science improves. (more on that below)...

Nicky sounds like a "high shedder" - meaning that he keeps/maintains a fairly large component of worms w/i his system. Yes, sometimes that means that the worms are resistant to the de-wormer you are using. OR it could just mean that you HAVE to continuously keep him wormed - with alternating products AND finding which products do the best... He may always have to be wormed round the clock, every couple of months to reduce his worm load.

Cocoa and Baby sound like they are naturally RESISTANT to worm populations! LUCKY YOU!! This means that you don't have to worm as often - to hopefully KEEP THE WORMS IN THEIR SYSTEMS from becoming resistant. If you do the followup fecals, you should be able to find out what would be best to worm with - not necessarily what is currently advised by monthly rotation.

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I had a new vet out yesterday. Southern Pines, NC has the satellite Horse Care Unit from NCSU and they've done a lot of the research for the various worming products. I don't have all the studies, but I'm sure a lot of them can be found on line. Due to new findings ON THE WORM RESISTANCE problem - the new vet has stated it would be best to find out which ponies are resistant to worm populations, which are heavily infested and which are high shedders (consistently). That means testing the whole herd now (fecals - 25 @ $26/each) and then again after worming them and then again this fall, then worm and test again... UHHH
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. That's a total 100 tests @ $26/each in one year. I was thinking about the microscope - now may go ahead and invest in it! Would be cheaper, though not necessarily easier... Since my "herd" has mostly been running together since November when we put them in Temporary quarters and are still mostly running together since moving here - says that they are all going to need to be done at the same time (OMG)... I did check with two other equine specialty clinics when looking for vets - they also said the same thing when I called back and asked questions.

O,and when I asked about Quest - he just shrugged. He hasn't done many minis/shetlands in his practice...

Here is a copy of the letter his office sent after his visit...

"For our 2015 Deworming Plan clients:

We are committed to providing our clients and their horses with the most useful, practical information that we have available. The latest research tells us that, because ofthe increasing problem of resistance to the current dewormers available on the market, that the "old" approach of rotating dewormer types/classes every other month is no longer a valid, cost effective, and useful method of deworming every horse.

There will be a small percentage of horses, which we refer to as "high shedders" who will still require this approach, but to deworm every horse in this manner will only continue to promote the resistance issue and also not necessarily be in the best interestof our horses, not to mention our pocketbooks.

The best way to determine how to deworm our horses is to do quarterly fecal tests. For a large percentage of horses, those with a low or non-existent worm fecal egg counts (FEC) we will deworm twice a year (in April and November) with Quest Plus and that is all they will require. This is the plan covered under our 2015 Deworming Plan.

Some horses will require additional deworming based on their quarterly FEC. We will help you determine this for each of your individual horses. You can then purchase the appropriate dewormers either from us, your local feed store, or online.

And some horses will still require the rotating schedule of every other month deworming. By doing your quarterly FEC we will be able to help you deworm these horse with the most effective products at the correct times of year.For any questions please do not hesitate to contact our office.

We have enclosed a handy chart to keep track of when you bring in your FECs, what the results are, and when you give your dewormers."

Soooo....

In my o, so extra time - I'm now doing more research...

Heres some links I've found so far today.

Horseman's Laboratory - They answer a lot of questions and ask you to send samples to them for testing.

USU 2009 - FEC improves de-worming programs (PDF)

This one written in 2004 - but think it still applies?? Also has links for equipment but haven't checked to see if they are current/up

Onwner FECs

YAY!! - The Naturally Healthy Horse - Doing your own FECs (has a link for supplies - I haven't checked it out yet)...written May 2014, so not OOD.

Natural Horse Talk - PDF 10 pg long. Copyright date of 2000-2006 - but has links to supplies and brings up other ideas...

O LOOK - here's a link to supplies and the whole shebang will be 1/4 what I would spend on doing 1 round of FECs thru the vet clinic...

Farmstead Health Supply

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Hubby and I were just talking about it and I will probably be getting an "early" BDay present - from Amazon....
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We just ran fecals on all of our dogs - after taking in 2 rescues. They cost more than the ones for the horses! Also did Heart worm checks, which we hadn't done in years... One dog found to have heart worms and we will shortly be starting him on "slow kill meds" to see if it works... Then all 6 of our dogs will go on HW preventative (for the first time since 2008).
 
Keep talking/typing. You may be as bossy/know-it-all as you please. I swear--every time you write, I learn something or learn something to think about.

Some thoughts...

Yes, Nicky is a "high shedder." But why? (despite a more rigorous deworming regime) he still has high egg counts. I'm way off into "speculation-land' with this, but he's older and he's been dewormed more than our two girls. I don't know Coco's past, but I suspect her deworming schedule was spotty; Baby has been dewormed even less. So Nicky has high counts despite more rigorous deworming. It just really makes me wonder about the resistance issue. And leaves me unsure where to go next.

Max's Mom mentioned trusting your vet. I guess I trust the vet. ...sort of. Except she moved. So now there's an intern type and a guy that used to work mostly on cows. The vet hospital is reputable (I believe); it's the same one that used to treat Nicky; the first vet lady that came out here remembered Nicky (and gave him a kiss on the nose; what's not to like about that?) It's a long trailer haul from here for emergencies so perhaps I'll check out the vet hospital up north, because traffic-wise, it's closer. Anyway I wandered. I'll check out your links. Thanks.
 
I use a natural herbal wormer. I rescued a mini filly that was about to die from a really bad worm infestation. The people I got her from were deworming her with the paste chemical wormers. It only took one month for my wormer to rid her completely of the nasty things!!! Saved her life!!! She is now a very healthy trick horse!!! I use it on my my minis and pets and it's awesome!!!
 
I would trust my Vet to a point, but most Vets go on info given by the manufacturers and they have jumped very quickly on the worm count bandwagon. Firstly we all know that Moxidectin (quest of ANY kind) is not suitable for Minis. Secondly, Tapes do not show on a faecal count Thirdly encysteds show on NO test at all. Then there are Pinworms, that are now prevalent. Also there is not a real INCREASE in resistance at all. There is a slight resistance that you can exacerbate in your own animals by constantly underworming (which "rotating" encourages as different wormers kill different ratios of a burden) The worm counts will only tell you so much, and even then, I would want to do the test myself as I have seen many instances of the Vet saying there are no worms present when we all know (or should) that there is no such thing as a horse with no worms present....Every time worming comes up we get all this debate. UNDER worming for the weight of the animal is what causes resistance NOT "over" worming as dead worms do not multiply. It is the worms that survive the worming programme that can multiply with a higher resistance.
 

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