What the Auctioneer said

[Orkie]

Yes, I agree 110% with Jill. Me too have been spending a lot of time picking out top quality breedingstock to produce those winners in the show pen. I have spent several years trying to get a nice little herd started and I feel like it's just now coming together.

 

[Basketmiss]

Wow Marty that is interesting that a guy who makes money is telling this. It sounds like the situation is pretty bad..

I will say I think everyone should be responsible breeders but good luck with that! We all have the freedom to do what we please and so some please to do things that Arent the best!

If every breeder/owner of mares and stallions would just not breed 1- just think how many horses that would save from coming into the world. Maybe 1,000,000,000. Now that is impact! For, just 1 breeding not being done..

Yes it would be great if big breeders didnt breed 50-100 every year, but it WOULD make an impact if everyone decided to eliminate 1 breeding.. How hard could that be?? JMO

 

[JWC sr.]

I keep hearing about the market being down and horses not selling on a regular basis. But from what we are seeing here the market is fine. There are portions of it that are not doing as well as they were in past years, ie the middle & lower range quality horse as the buyers seem to be much more knowlegable and discerning. Which to me is a good thing.

But that is to be expected as folks kick long range breeding programs and mangement practices into the breed.

A perfect example is the recent IAMHA on-line auction where we only took 13 consignments and of those 8 sold for an average of a little over 1800.00. With bids on every horse. Several went to Europe and the rest were bought by folks thru out the country. Not bad for a first time and I am sure it will be better this summer when we run another one.

Education is the key to being able to sell horses in any breed and folks have to work at it in a continous and concerted manner to be sucessful. We can't continue to just sell to each other and need new people interested in the breed. That means reaching out to the other breeds and to new venues to find and show off our wonderful little horses. When compared to the other equine breeds they cannot be beat.

Advertizing, displays, seminars and other types of marketing are required to be sucessful in any type sales. And of course the quality of the product is a must to be sucessful long range. Big Farms and small breeders are all capable of doing these type things with any budget and with any level of expertise.

It takes work and planning for anyone to be sucessful OH!

Cindy and I enjoy the breeding aspect of the miniatures more than anything. We have been very particular about the horses we buy and add to our gene pool. Each has a specific trait or look that we want to reproduce. But if we just sit here at home and breed our horses without showing and advertizing, we could have the best in the country and only we would know it. Thereby not having a market for the babies we produce.

That is the reason we stay active in the magazines,the registries, shows and IAMHA. Bottom line you have to let people know what you are doing and when you do the sales will take care of themselves.

My two cents worth anyway, and with that and a dollar you can get a cup of coffee. LOL

 

[Mercysmom]

I agree - I look at sales boards from across the US and the prices are indicative of a buyer's market in all breeds.

I quit breeding minis in 2003 when Indy aborted a 7 month old filly that was upside down with the head back and the aftercare took some time. I figured it is easier to enjoy the healthy, happy mares I have, and to purchase anything I want rather than leave it up to Mother Nature... at least I am guaranteed to purchase something that I want - a filly with the color I want and the look.

The prices to raise a foal properly (stud fees, mare care/stallion care, registration fees, veterinary care, farrier care, feeding, etc) are up and people in my area have not been willing to pay what a quality foal is worth (I have had people call asking for a $600 horse to breed - I would not sell to them and the two horses were sold with gelding contracts, which were honored).

The few foals and adult horses I have sold I kept tabs on and all but two are still with their original purchasers, years later so I know the horses have pleased their owners for the reasons they were purchased - the ones that did not stay in their first homes was due to divorce in one family and a business decision in the other but one foal has been with her second owner to date and she will celebrate her eleventh birthday this year.

A Morgan breeder I know has a number of two year old colts, all of her yearlings from last year and whatever is due this year ... and her horses are all show quality animals but no buyers.

The glut of horses on the market is a problem and if we created them, we have to be responsible for the lives we have brought into the world.

Just my humble opinion,

Denise

 

[Champ]

IMO....AND IT'S JUST MY OPINION...For the people who say I will keep my horses for ever ......

some of us like to think that we will, however suppose you lose your job or house or your husband or wife should pass away and you can no longer financially afford them or what happens if you pass away will there be anybody that feels the same way about your animals.....or if minis can live to be 40 and your 40 or say 50 are you still going to be able to take care of your minis when your 70, 80 or say 90 years old....it is for this reason I don't breed my animals and most of my animals have been from a rescue situation.

 

[Riverdance]

I have said this before, and I guess I will say this again. This problem does not just relate to the horse market, but to all animal markets. There are back yard breeders, mill breeders, and gotta get a quick buck breeders in horses,dogs,cats etc. We are flooding the market on everything.

You get a handful of breeders on one specific animal,be it horse, dog, cat,etc. More people see it, have to spend the money to own it, then decide they need to get on the band wagon and breed it. Either to "make money" or to "recoup" their expense. Or "would it not be fun to make one of our own".

All of the sudden the popularity of that breed grows and then come the mill breeders, they are in it to "MAKE MONEY" They do not care about their animals and breed and breed and breed. The animals are poorly taken care of, and who cares if they die, no proper vet care is utilized to take care of these animals as it woud cut into the bottom line.

Our Miniarure horses are in this last category now. There are so many breeders that have 20, 30. 40 to 100+ foals a year. WHY? You can not possibly give these foals the individual care they need. There is no market for this many foals. You might be one of the top breeding farms and have produced some top winning horses, but you know the combinations that do not work, you know that out of perhaps 100 foals that you do have, only about 10 of them are going to be any good, but you still breed them. Many of these top breeders are really,perhaps, breeding a lesser quality foal then some smaller farms, but they have enough money to promote these foals and get them sold to unsuspecting buyers.

In these top breeders mind, there is still a market for these other horses. There are many buyers out there that do not educate themselves to what a good horse is. They go for the foals of the last winning horse or the foals of a World Champion. Even if that World Champion can not produce his way out of a paper bag. (We all know many.many,many World or National Champions that have never produced a Champion or even a Top 10 for that matter) We have also heard stories of the horse found in someones back yard with no special pedigree who has gone on to be one of the top producing stallions in the Miniautre horse history.The educated eye found this stallion.

The buyer has never educated themslelves to what is required to have a good horse. IT IS NOT ALWAYS THE PEDIGREE, but yet how many of you are just pedigree chasers? As long as buyers chase a pedigree, and not the quality of the foal, more inferrior foals will be produced.

How many buyers have looked at the smaller farms foals? Sometimes there are real gems on smaller farms that would cost the buyer a fraction of the cost for a much better quality foal than if they bought one from the latest winning stallion.

How many breeders are there out there that have foals, but never ever show them? Have you ever asked yourself why you are breeding these horses, if you are not going to be showing them? You may say to improve the breed, but how can you even begin to improve the breed if you never go to shows to even learn what is required to make a good quality foal?

What is the point of breeding horses, just to sell them? Many breeders did this to "make money". Many others started buying horses from others, then either breeding them to their "World Champions", or just re selling them for 3,4 5x as much as what they paid for them. Thus encouraging the "backyard breeder" to continue breeding.

If we are going to save this wonderful breed that we have, we all have to slow down our breeding programs or stop breeding them just to have babies. No one is making money on this breed if you figure all of the expenses involved. There was a time when they did, selling these horses for $25,000 or more,just becasue of the stallion involved. But those times are gone.

The other thing that I notice is all of the mares that are bred for resale. For instance, I have several mares that I want to sell. These are quality mares that I spent a lot of money on, but either I have decided to go a different direction, or the mare does not breed well with the stallion that I bought her for. This does not mean that she can not be a Wolrd Champion producer with another stallion. Nor does it mean that these mares are barren or of a poor quality. Why should I have to have them pregnant in order to sell them? In no other horse breed do we require the mares to be pregnant in order to buy them. If you are interested in a mare either check out that she has had foals before, or have a breeding soundess exam done. Just like you would have a pre purchase exam done on a large horse to be sure that it was sound.

We have a wonderfu breed here, and we are improving the quality in leaps and bounds, but the over breeding needs to stop. The breedings to make money, or to just have some foals, needs to stop or the Miniatrure market wil be just like all of the other large horse markets, DEAD!!

 

[LaVern]

This has happened before and it will happen again. It is farming. Crop prices are at an all time HIGH. Wheat hit 20.00 a bushel this fall. Corn is way up and will probably stay up as we need more fuel and all the other things corn can make. Hay land will be planted to other more profitable crops. So I don’t see hay prices going down. And feed prices will probably go up even more as the transportation prices go up.

Times are tough for the general public. There is not a lot of money to care for horses.

However, if a person has the right kind of horse, I have NEVER seen such a demand. Americans are very competitive, especially the rich ones. They also want, what no one else has.

If you want to stay in this business you have to truly believe in your type of horse, spend a fortune advertising and proving in the show ring that your horses are great. You still won’t make money but people will want your horses.

Those breeding farms that have been in this for many years and have an open and good eye and kids and grandkids that want to take over just for the love of it will do just fine in my opinion.

 

[maryann]

We chose to stop breeding last year. We were only breeding for 3-4 foals a year so I

don't think we were overbreeding but,I do feel we were a contributing factor just

as everyone who breeds is, whether they are breeding quality or pets. There are just too

many minis and not enougth buyers, period. After going to sales or seeing quality horses

going for next to nothing over the last year or so it breaks my heart. I know many of these

sale horses are ending up in not so good places ,because they can" afford to buy a little

horse for the back yard now." I have a gelding here now that was purchased from a sale from

a top breeder in the industry as a stallion . He is very nice but sold for 300 dollars. His

blood line alone should be worth thousands. Yes its my good fortune to have him , but his

breeders misfortune to only get minimal dollars for him. I agree with the auctioneer. If everyone

breeding would cut their breeding in half for two years I think the market would surge. It

would be a win win for everyone including breeders breeding only quality. As the market

stands right now , it is to my advantage not to spend tons of money on mare care and foaling

etc. I can go to the auction or the breeding farm and pick up a weanling for next to nothing and

have none of the sleepless nights and expenses of foaling. We realized as breeders we were

only hurting the industry. I only hope more breeders large and small will realize that what and

how many you breed affects us all. We realized that we are " Some People who breed" All of us

are the "some people who breed" . Sometimes its just hard to admit the we could possibly be

part of the problem.

This is our miniature horse industry. We all need to take

responsibility. Maryann

 

[Margo_C-T]

To get back to the original topic point--what is amazing to ME is that these words/opinions would come from an AUCTIONEER--although, when horses aren't selling at an AUCTION, it is HIS 'bottom line' that is being hurt, too...and that alone might explain it--but he'd have MY admiration for even broaching the subject when and where he did!!

In the current situation(high prices for fuel, which have 'trickled down' to affect EVERY aspect of our lives; increasing scarcity and/or MUCH higher prices of the basic FEEDS needed for proper horse care, due to a number of factors-higher prices at every production level, land begin developed instead of staying in crop production,crop land being diverted to CORN(=, ethanol, the 'big ANSWER'????-well, not so much, probably)to our petroleum dependency), DROUGHT, you name it....), it is going to become much harder much faster to provide enough feed for 'big' horses than it is for miniatures, so it is CERTAINLY correct to be pointing out why even MORE should not be being produced, willy-nilly, under current circumstances. Overbreeding IS a problem pretty much across the spectrum of horse breeds. Yes, the 'upper end' does usually manage to stay fairly steady(and IMO, it helps when the breeder has the 'financial cushion' to continue to be able to fully participate in all promotional activities during 'slower' times...there's something to the old saying about how it 'takes money to make money'....)

I have a feeling that the market may not be 'able' to return as it was; I think some of these high prices are going to stay high, unfortunately, at least for the foreseeable future. Whether you think it's good or bad, that 'should' weed out some marginal breeders, of all breeds....one can only hope that it happens in time to prevent the production of ever-more horses that will end up unwanted.

I saw an ad on the Sale Board just the other day...someone wanting to trade an AGED QH STALLION, NOT TRAINED FOR ANYTHING, never been bred(thank God for small favors!), for a miniature mare, because the people have a miniature 'stud' who 'wants a wife'-i.e, they want to BREED! Yet, WHAT would most people safely be able to DO with an 8(as I recall) year old, full-sized STALLION with NO training???? Does that sound like a trade that a thoughtful horseman would 'jump at'????? Why would you not at least TRY to make a horse more desirable by making it useful through training?(and as in Marty's original point, even that is nowadays often not enough....).

This subject SHOULD stay in the forefront of discussion! While I'd agree that MANY who are the 'worst offenders' in 'puppy mill miniature horse breeding' are NOT reading this Forum, and/or wouldn't be swayed in their actions if they did, I believe it's important to keep this subject in the forefront of discussion; anyone who has been in the miniature industry for a good long time understands that there IS a tendency for those NEW TO HORSES, when they get a miniature,to in short order, be 'starry-eyed' about BREEDING miniatures. In NO animal industry should most owners become breeders; new people, especially, need to know what the reality often becomes, for the ANIMALS! Yes, there ARE 'longtime' (and some 'shorttime')-owners/'breeders' who shouldn't be breeding at all, or who should cut back, and yes, there are 'some' who will never see that those folks are THEM--fortunately, there are also those who sensibly HAVE cut back on the amount of breeding they do. We all need to consider how the horses we produce may ultimately end up, down the road....in the conditions that NOW, and may well continue to, exist.

Margo

 

[Just Us N Texas]

You know, the throughbreds are one breed that does not, nor will not use A.I., or any artificial means of reproduction. They really limit the number of horses per year that are bred to any of their stallions. Smart, you bet. Even in economic downturns, the stock remains consistently salable. That is because they know, and practice the adage of "supply and demand". Most of their young colts are gelded at 1 year or before. By not allowing A.I. and gelding, they are holding down the amount of horses that can be bred. Other breeds have not adhered to this practice, therefore bringing their prices down. There are as many upturns and downturns in this breed as any other, but their prices will remain good.

When it comes to backyard breeders in the minis, most of us, and I am including myself in this group, think our "crow" is the blackest, and think it deserves to be reproduced. We see the good traits our horses have, hope the bad ones won't be reproduced, and breed. Not everyone of the offspring have all those good traits!

IMO, I think we as mini horse people need to stop breeding so many horses, and start doing a lot of gelding.

 

[bingo]

Well many have different ideas of what good prices are as well. Some are very pleased with selling a foal or horse for 800, others feel 1500 is a great price and yet others feel 2500 is a good price. Some are getting 5000+. So with so many subjectives it is hard to get a good answer as to who feels what the market is doing.

It isn't about who is the bad guy. It is just something we should all think of before every breeding and then stop and think again. If the answer that we keep coming back to is breed this pair then by all means do what feels right to you.

 

[LaVern]

I have been considering breeding every other year, from the standpoint of both over production and the time off to work with yearlings and actually go to other horse stuff and promote and vist with out worrying about babies at home. That way Puck could keep driving every other year and I could go see him.

 

[wpsellwood]

Pleaasssss dont get all over my a** for this post. I have deleted several times and then rewrote it.

When we used to race horses the market was based on the price of horses per lb at the killer sale. If the killer prices were up so were the selling prices if they were down so were the sale prices. There is no longer that market which has in turn flooded the market of horses. Not saying I agree or disagree in killer sales, slaughter houses, I believe in humane treatment for all animals. Never once did one of my horses go there, but there were alot that did. Which also kept the horses thinned out Im assuming.

I just saw on the news yesterday horses found starving tied to a pole in the middle of highway. So sad breaks my heart. I think slow starvation has to be the worst.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

Market has stayed steady in my neck of the woods (Massachusetts) for appaloosas if not gotten better year after year. I am flooded with calls for mini apps of all sexes and ages. I decided for my own reason to lease or sell most of my horses (all mini apps) and let me tell you that there were two or three people serious for every horse I had for sale and no shortage of people looking to lease. They all went or were spoken for within a month! I still have two - two colts. I keep prices reasonable- $1500 - $4500. I also check backgrounds on all buyers and people who lease to make sure of good homes. Not that always works- have had to help move them to another home or take them back but in my own concience must make sure they are in good homes. I don't plan on breeding any anytime soon. One mare coming back from a lease I opted not to have bred back and my Shetland mare I don't plan to breed. But that's all my choice. And just as a side note- I don't show- my horses that I keep don't show, I don't show them before I sell them. They can be shown and some have been sold to go on to be multiple top ten years in a row with AMHA and HOF (#1) in halter and color in AMHR so the quality is there. YOu don't need to show to produce quality foals if you know what you want to breed and breed for specific qualities and don't be barn blind. ('nough said on my soap box regarding the show vs no show quality debate).

The closing of the slaughter houses has effected the auctions for all size horses. I won't go into the slaughter debate.

As others said it's like any "luxury" item- there are rises and falls in the market. We'll never see the prices that we got 10 - 15 years ago that is for sure and I think prices will come down across the board. We'll see some that still will bring higher prices and still see plenty of give-aways. The rescues are full and overflowing. I think it'll get worse before it gets better so that's why I made my own choices on my own programs.

 

[ClickMini]

Honestly, if you can't get a MINIMUM of $2000 on average for your weanling foals, it is not worth the risks involved to your mare and to your pocketbook! EVERY time your mare foals out you are taking the risk of losing your mare, or possibly facing a steep vet bill. It is a huge gamble, especially with minis. I lost the gamble the first time around when I bought an excellent HOF mare pregnant and she had a bad dystocia. It cost me $8000 in vet bills and I still lost the foal though I saved my wonderful mare. I have never re-bred her. How many foals would it take to regain that money lost? Depends...but what if in that financial recovery period I had another one of these catastrophic events??? Even under the very best care and circumstance, there can be horrible problems. I am betting that most breeders that breed 10 or more foals per year, the minimum I feel you can produce to get to a break even point if you are doing the right things to promote your program, don't go too long between situations requiring veterinary intervention. And when things go wrong in foaling, they happen FAST and are so very serious. If my mare had been any further from a vet hospital than she was, she would have been in dire straights, for sure.

I have spent the past five years getting together a set of horses that I feel represent the top of the market. I am still doing little breeding this year. I have one that still remains to show whether she is pregnant or not; if she is not, we will wait it out another year. Foals are darling and fun, but before too long they are adults and will need to be cared for by someone for the next 20+ years.

I am not an advocate of a breeding moratorium. But I really do think it would be beneficial to the breed for people who are casual breeders to re-think their positions. I personally know of a beautiful "B" division stallion, recent National Champion in Single Pleasure Driving, half-brother to the World Champion of Champions, good-minded and well-trained...and no one has bought him for $7500. WHAT IS THAT ABOUT??? That is more of a market indicator than anything else I can think of at the moment! In my mind, a horse of that proven quality and training should bring an absolute minimum of $20,000. Certainly the owner has more than that sunk into him at this point!

On the other hand, I know a breeder that has a waiting list for foals from one of her stallions. So it definitely is a case by case basis. I do think that anyone who delves into breeding for sales better have a solid business plan that shows how you plan to recover costs, market and sell your product.

 

[Lisa Strass]

How many breeders are there out there that have foals, but never ever show them? Have you ever asked yourself why you are breeding these horses, if you are not going to be showing them? You may say to improve the breed, but how can you even begin to improve the breed if you never go to shows to even learn what is required to make a good quality foal?

The other thing that I notice is all of the mares that are bred for resale. For instance, I have several mares that I want to sell. These are quality mares that I spent a lot of money on, but either I have decided to go a different direction, or the mare does not breed well with the stallion that I bought her for. This does not mean that she can not be a Wolrd Champion producer with another stallion. Nor does it mean that these mares are barren or of a poor quality. Why should I have to have them pregnant in order to sell them? In no other horse breed do we require the mares to be pregnant in order to buy them. If you are interested in a mare either check out that she has had foals before, or have a breeding soundess exam done. Just like you would have a pre purchase exam done on a large horse to be sure that it was sound.

Just wanted to say I agree with the parts I bolded in your post.

Honestly, if you can't get a MINIMUM of $2000 on average for your weanling foals, it is not worth the risks involved to your mare and to your pocketbook! EVERY time your mare foals out you are taking the risk of losing your mare, or possibly facing a steep vet bill.

I do think that anyone who delves into breeding for sales better have a solid business plan that shows how you plan to recover costs, market and sell your product.

Uh-oh, now you're suggesting that we use common sense and have business plans!

Seriously, I do think you are right, and if everyone approached breeding with more of a business plan in mind, I'm sure there would be fewer foals. Unfortunately, some breeders have a business plan based on quantity, and I don't know what the answer to that is.

 

[whitney]

Here's my way of addressing this issue. Don't produce ANYTHING your not willing to KEEP and I mean KEEP.

I think as a "breeder" you have a responsibility to the offspring to place them in the best possible home AND have a BUY back option in your sales contract. Thats why I'm small time.

 

[txminipinto]

Man, this topic has been beat to death several times now. There are several factors already mentioned that affect our market:

Fuel Prices

Grain Prices

Closing of the slaughter house - yes I'm pro-slaughter and work in veterinary medicine. If you've seen the pain and suffering caused from those bleeding hearts who are against slaughter and euthansia you'd understand.

Overproduction

and over production of culls.

It comes down to this:

Every single one of us needs to look at our herds and cull/cut back breedings. If you aren't showing and your stock isn't showing, then WHY are you breeding? Showing is fun and it can be a family event. But the real reason for exhibition of livestock (and yes, horses are livestock) is for evaluation of breeding stock and produce. If you are breeding, then you need to be showing. And if you aren't placing high or at least chasing those that are, then you need to re-evaluate your stock. Go ahead and flame - but I talk the talk and walk the walk. EVERYTHING at my house has stepped a hoof into the ring and I try to sell only to those that show. I promote. And that's what it comes down to for getting decent prices on horses.....promotion. I just sold one pony this week and have another serious bite on another. Both show homes.

And this is how serious I am about making sure my stock gets promoted. A yearling filly, I could have sold twice to individuals who just wanted a pet and were willing to spend a lot more than my final asking price. Wouldn't sell her. Sold her for less to an out of state home that will promote her. I only have 2-3 foals a year and I can keep them if the right home doesn't come along. I've raised 3 foals so far and all of them have gone out of state. The one stud colt we've had was sold as a gelding. I won't let ANYTHING with testicles off my property that I don't feel is stallion quality. I don't care if you think he's stallion quality, if I don't, he's gelded before he ever leaves. No gelding contracts.

And this is what breeders need to do. GELD colts. If you wouldn't keep him as a stallion, make sure no one else does. I'm really working with my clients in helping them sort their stock and deciding who keeps their manhood and who becomes a great gelding. If you want your market back, then we need to promote our geldings.

Another pet peeve is research. You need to understand equine conformation inside and out. You need to know what crosses historically have produced results. You need to understand weakness' in your horses and don't cross horses with the same weakness. If you breed a low neck to a low neck, you're gonna get a low neck.

Ok, off my soap box.

 

[barnbum]

Problem--too many animals of a domestic variety. Logical solution--make less.

Unless one who breeds is willing to care for every foal for life if necessary, don't breed.

Simple.

 

[SilverRidgeMinis]

I know things are pretty bad in Kentucky now. People cannot afford hay. If you saw the national news,

the other night you saw horses straving and people letting them loose because they can't feed them.

One older lady was behind on her rent and gave up her cable to feed her horses. She would do anything

to keep them from straving. People are trying to give full-size horses away. The draught caused hay

prices to triple then the economic on top of it has made things very bad. The price of everything is going up.

The animals are paying the price.

I am fortunate in that we were able to find hay for our minis at a reasonable price. I have been grateful

to sell two horses to people who already have hay to feed them but not at the price they normally would have sold for in a better time.

Horses may be selling other places but it is been difficult in Kentucky (full-size or minis). It is a buyers market. I am having no foals this year and unless I see a big turn around will not breed next year. If I breed I must be responbile and be able to keep the foal. I am going to have to put my dreams of breeding that national champion on hold. I think it will be a few years before things bounce back.

I have to agree with the auctioneer. Breeding must stop for awhile. We all need to be responsible - small and large farms - all kinds and size of horses - dogs and cats too.

Freida

Silver Ridge Minis