What do I test for?

[sdmini]

I have one line of horses that produces the oddest colors.

This is the gr-Granddamm Sorry about the "lovely" photo, came off the registration papers. I bought her from my Uncle's dispersal and she been living a very fat retirement here since.

- palomino (no dorsal, no darker points yet must carry dun, also must carry silver)

Grand Dam

- palomino (no dorsal, no darker points, sire is a black pinto, has produced a grullo from a bay so must carry dun as well as silver.)

Dam

- Silver buckskin (no dorsal, "dirty" points ie legs, ears, mane is a "dirty" flaxen, sire is a bay, full sibling to grullo)

her full brother

Son/Gelding

- ?silver? Dun (has a dorsal, odd mottling on the face even though no appaloosa in background, no darker points.)

Here you can see his dorsal, never took a photo from above or behind the rest of the year but it does clip out considerably lighter than in winter coat.

Here is his face. I would say appaloosa but I own the majority of his dam line and his sire from a well known sorrel sire and pinto dam line. Sire also carries silver but not dun.

The mottling has me thrown for such a loop but I did read somewhere that Champagne can cause some mottling or could it be from a double up of silver gene? Is it plausible to think the line may also carry Champagne? Would you say the gelding is for sure a dun or would you question counter shading? In short with out throwing in the kitchen sink what would test him for?

On a personal note I've to to say it was mortifying to go through old photos, how I took those photos, how I use to condition and show...yikes. I might as well be posting pictures of me in my bleached out towering mass of hair I had in high school.

 

[ohmt]

Mottling can also come from sabino which I would say he has. That could also be why his base color is so "soft" or light. I don't see any champagne at all so I would rule that out. Could definitely be dun. I rarely see false dorsals on red based horses.

I would just test him for silver and maybe dun, but I have not done much research on the dun test so am unsure how reliable it is.

 

[disneyhorse]

Maybe it's my screen but the dam and brother look way more like bay roans than silver buckskins to me?

 

[sdmini]

Nope their not roan, we raised roan QHs for years so that is one modifier I have no issues with.

If they look close in color it's your screen because they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Dam has perpetual "dirty" blonde appearance but brother doesn't have any smatterings of white hairs on his body.

 

[supaspot]

Ive heard that red dun can hide under palomino and silver definately can , so I think first pic is a dunalino (palomino plus dun carrying silver )

next palominio / white

next possibly silver grulla ?

next smutty buckskin

and last one red dun sabino (would explain the mottled skin)

the tests you choose really depend on which horse you want to test

 

[Mona]

If you are very certain that there is no appy in the dam's side, then I would definitely be questioning the sire's side (sire). Yes. sabino and Champagne can both cause a sort of mottling, but nothing (that I am aware of) like what is shown here, when I look at that close up head shot, it screams appaloosa mottling to me.

It's really next to impossible to know what dun genes may or may not be in the background with only going on a few from the background, as for every maternal descendant, there is a paternal one that we don't know about. And is hard to judge from only one photo of the ones posted, exactly what's what too as they appear quite washed out on my screen, and being clipped also hides a lot. BUT, that said, I certainly don't "see" dun in any of them.

I guess if you want to pinpoint him as accurately as you can for color and pattern, I would say go with the works. He looks like a sorrel sabino pinto in the foal picture but I am amazed at the mottling that he developed with age, and around the eyes seems more appy than sabino to me. So I guess I think sorrel sabino appaoloosa. (based only on what I can see in those photos) Also, appy can give a "false" dorsal stripe.

If you test for the following, you should have a pretty darned good idea as to what you have!

Red

Cream

Silver

Dun

Agouti

Appaloosa

Splashed White

Sabino

And I suppose you can always test for Frame and Tobi just to be sure as well, just to give a more accurate account of it. If you do test though, I'd love for you to share the results with us! GOOD LUCK!

 

[sdmini]

I hear ya, I kept trying to figure out how I got an appaloosa in the "wood shed" so to speak but with parentage verifying that ruled out that equation. His sire is a son of Redi or Not and a buckskin pinto double bred Winks Jingles mare. We have used his sire for a few foal crops now and have not gotten anything else with anything that would resemble appy characteristics. He is a silver carrying palomino that does have one blue eye, belly spot, blaze and a couple of socks.

His dam is out of Marystown Cowboy Cool a bay, who is out of a bay and a bay. His granddam is out of Simmon Sonny a black pinto, whose out of a black and a black pinto. I can dig and post a photo of Cowboy and Simmon but they are pretty straight forward in their color. His dam has no "chrome", not even a couple of white hairs on her forehead so any patterns that the foal has will be coming from sire.

If we coincide that the last photo of the gelding is a dun then all others must be a dun as all the sires do not have the dun gene.

Not that it makes a lot of difference but the full brother I still think is grullo, to me he's too dark to be a sooty buckskin and he has a dorsal stripe.

Guess I have cabin fever, really not a lot I can "do" with them right now so my brain has to latch onto something while I'm cleaning stalls.

 

[ohmt]

No need to test for red, cream, agouti, splash or sabino. Could test for silver if you're curious, but since silver doesn't effect the color of red based coats and he is a gelding, there really isn't a need. I would just test for dun and Lp-i almost forgot about that one. That will tell you for sure if he is appy. I am guessing it is his sabino though that's giving him both the lighter color and mottling.

Also sent you a pm-i apologize for the redundancy!

 

[Mona]

Marlee, I do think that grullo you posted, is just that, but I am wondering if there is any chance the dun gene may have come from the bay sire? Have these horses all down the line been DNA'd and PQ'd? Hmmm, this really is a good color question!

Amanda, just wondering why you say there is no need to test for red, cream, agouti, splash or sabino?

 

[ohmt]

He is definitely red based and I don't see cream, especially in the second picture. Since he is a gelding, no point in testing for agouti-same with splash. I never bother with the sabino test since it only tests for one of many. He definitely looks to be sabino though.

 

[Mona]

OK, so we're basically on the same page then. I too thought that, but offered it only to prove what he may be. I didn't realize that because he wasn;t going to be used for breeding it didn;t matter. I just thought she wanted to know for the sake of knowing.

 

[ohmt]

I see! In that case, yes, those tests would prove exactly what he is genetically

I was thinking she wanted to know what he was visually so I figured she could save the money on the others and just test for dun and Lp. Then she would know if he really is appy or if the mottling is just from the sabino and if he is chestnut or red dun.

 

[Mona]

Marlee, are both his eyes mottled like that or just this one side?? Also, when he is clipped out, does he retain the dorsal stripe?? Do you have photos showing that maybe? I was just going through some old pics of a colt that was born here. He was sabino and red dun. He waqs born dark and clipped out very light from all the sabino roaning. He had mottling from the sabino, but looked different than the mottling on your fella. This guy was sired by a red dun, and was out of a wildly marked silver sabino mare.(never tested but I think she was black based) This colt kept the dorsal after clipping. I am posting these freshly clipped photos to show his mottling. I am not sure what he ended up looking like at maturity as I sold him as a weanling.

You can faintly see his dorsal stripe in this photo...

And the dorsal is still there after a fresh clip...

 

And these all show the mottling he had...

 

[valshingle]

I think you can determine whether or not he's an app by checking his genitals (anus, sheath). If there is mottling there than I think you can be assured that he is an app. If there is no mottling there than I would just check for silver for now. I have seen some silvers with mottling on the face and striped hooves.

If you have the money than I would test for as many as you think are possible, even if not likely. That way you would have your answer.

 

[Mona]

Val, as I have just shown in my photo example above, the mottle anus etc. is not only from appy. It is also from sabino. The colt I posted pics of has no appy bloodlines. His mottling came from nothing other than his sabino(and maybe silver) heritage.

 

[sdmini]

Sorry all, had a Basketball game to go to. His dam is parentage verified as his sire. My brother has a appaloosa but is 15-20 miles away so "through the fence" would be rather ambitious on his part.

His dam is sired by Marystown Cowboy Cool who is straight up bay.

No striped hooves, no mottling anywhere else. The facial mottling is the same on both sides.

Here is a link to his pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=DESERT+FROST+SOS&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l= His dam is listed as dun but when I registered her I registered her as a palomino because her "dirty" points show didn't show at birth.

This was Frost this spring

This was him early this fall. If you look close you can see the outline of a portion of the dorsal.

 

[Mona]

Well going from the pics, and info, if he is not appaloosa, then I would say he is in fact a red dun sabino.

 

[sdmini]

Frost's grand dam and great grand dam have an odd taupe cast to their coats that I've not seen a "normal" palomino. I've always figured, even though they say it doesn't show on red based, that the silver modified their coats but maybe it was the Dun gene? He does have heavy flexing and the small dark spots when you clip him like Mona's colt. (I forgot about that.)

I'll be honest he's a very nice little colt, (with a Nationals Top Ten and a World Top Five to prove it) but I really don't like the mottling so I'm trying to decide if it is a fluke or if there is something I need to steer clear of when breeding his dam.

 

[Mona]

That mottling/pigment (or lack thereof) on his muzzle may look so much more pronounced because he is razored. Maybe if he had been clipped but not razored it wouldn't appear so "appyish"??

 

[sdmini]

In his fall pic he is not razoured, just a 15. For Nationals and World I did find a really neat pot eyeliner for people in a dark gray that worked wonders on his eyes but there is nothing for his muzzle.