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WHAT ARE THE DIRECTORS DOING TO AMHA??!!

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Mona

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Dear AMHA members,

I hope you have all read the minutes from the June 13-14, 2008, Board of Directors meeting posted on the amha.org website. If not, please do so. The directors present at this meeting voted to pass a POLICY to allow a 1/4 inch legal height limit for horses that have their height protested at shows.

The following is taken from the minutes:

GR-050 Protest Rule Procedures

The following Protest Rule Procedures are recommended by the GR-050 Protest Committee:

Introduction: In November of 2007 the AMHA Board of Directors established a committee to review and rewrite a new height protest rule to be presented to the membership at the 2008 Annual Convention. The Board of Directors, in November 2007, voted to overturn th wording of the GR-050-C Protest Concerning height, which was passed by the membership at the 2007 Annual convention. The GR-050-C Protest Committee and the Show Rules Committee presented the revised wording of the Gr-050-C to the membership, at the 2008 Convention. The Membership voted to approve and implement immediately the new wording of the height protest rule, GR-050-C, Protest Concerning Height.

The AMHA Board of Directors approved the procedures to be used for the consistent implementation of GR-050-C Protest Concerning height.

GR-050-C Protest Concerning height: The measurement of a horse may be protested at any time prior to the end of the show so long as the horse is present on the show grounds. The protest must be made in writing accompanied by a $100 deposit.

Implementation Procedure: A protest committee will be employed and follow all the procedures directed and required for protest measurements in Gr-050.

Additional Procedures: The GR-050-C and Show Rules Committee recognize these procedures may create a tense atmosphere during the protest measuring process effecting accurate measurement of a horse. These committees recommended to the AMHA Board of Directors a policy which allows the protest measurement to be one quarter (1/4) of an inch over height qualification for the protest measurement only. The AMHA Board of Directors unanimously approved this policy. Example Horse ‘A’ is protested as being too tall in a 30 to 32 class. It’s original measurement was 31 3/4. The horse measures 32 1/4 by a protest measuring team. It meets the allowance authorized under the protest rule. It is therefore a legal horse at that show. (The one quarter inch allowance is to be applied to all height categories.)

All points, placings, awards will be relinquished by any horse who fails to meet height requirements under protest for that show only.

If the measurement is within legal height limits for the AMHA, but out of class height constraints, only the awards pertaining to effected height classes will be relinquished. Example: Horse ‘B’ was exhibited in a 30 to 32 inch Senior Halter Class. Horse ‘B’ measures 32 3/4 inches. Horse ‘B’ forfeits the Grand Champion award along with the 30 to 32 inch halter class placings, but may keep any award that is not height related, such as youth halter, halter obstacle, color, etc. (The horse must forfeit the Championship Award, as a result of disqualification from the original height class.)

If the horse measures above AMHA height requirements at its respective age it then loses ALL awards, points, and placings for that show.

The Board discussed the above procedures and emphasized that these procedures are for Protest Measurements Only, not initial measurements. Clair Severson made a motion to accept. Tom Roberts seconded. Voting Yes: Ben Benjamin, Jim Congleton, Larry Elniff, Nancy Grizzaffi, Jody Hoch, Sid Hutchcraft. Frank Lupton, Glen Matthews, Dave Miller, Jana Nichols, Mark O’Neal, Kathy Porter, Toni Reece, Tom Roberts, Clair Severson, Mike Want, Mark Wilson. Voting No: Tom O’Connell, Libby Rosen, Joanne Ross. Passed

The directors that voted to pass this policy have voted to ignore the foundation, history and the requirements that an American Miniature Horse must meet to be registered with AMHA during the last 30 years. That is, as described in the Foreword statement on the first page of the rule book, “As defined by AMHA, any horse that exceeds thirty-four (34) inches in height is NOT a Miniature Horse and is not eligible for registration.”

The directors voted to ignore the guidelines that all horses must by judged by:

The American Miniature Horse Standard of Perfection which states:

“Size: Must not measure more than 34 inches at the base of the last hairs of the mane.”

The directors voted to ignore show rule GR0-10 A. “All AMHA Shows are open to any horses registered with AMHA whose exhibitor is able to prove valid registration.” The directors votes also violates the AMHA Articles of Incorporation, several bylaws, rules and regulations, and show rules. Most of all the honesty and integrity of the AMHA is “trashed.”

First the members must ask why the parliamentarian allow this motion to be voted on? Roberts Rules of Order does not allow any rule or policy to be entertained that is in conflict with our bylaws. Surely she knows that. Why do we pay the parliamentarian to attend our meetings and not advise the Board against such things?

What is wrong with this policy?

1. The directors vote to give an allowance of 1/4 inch to a measurement protest that cheats every horse and exhibitor in the show, as well as every member of AMHA. Horses can not be shown if they are not AMHA registered, and horses over 34 inches don’t meet the requirements to be AMHA registered.

2. The example given in Horse ‘B’ allows this horse to be ½ inch over the new policy approval of 1/4 inch over the required height, and 3/4 inch over the maximum height for an AMHA registered horse. This horse can compete in every class in the show except the height classes, but it cannot be registered in AMHA because it is over the height requirement.

3. Is it fair for a horse that is 34 3/4 inches to compete in Hunter and Jumper classes with honest horses that are under 34 inches?

4. AMHA has been measuring height protests for 30 years, as long as they have had shows, and just now the current directors have decided that “the procedure may create a tense atmosphere during the protest measuring process effecting accurate measurement of a horse.”

5. Show horses are supposed to be trained for the show ring. They are trained to stand still in one position for several minutes. They must be trained to be measured, and they must measure under 34 inches at the base of the last hairs of the mane or they do not meet the requirements to be AMHA registered or shown in AMHA shows. That is the way the membership wants the rule, that is the current rule, and the directors should not overturn the memberships decisions. It is the responsibility of the directors, and especially the presidents to enforce the rules. The rules are that if at anytime it is determined that a horse exceeds 34 inches in height it’s papers will be revoked.

6. The people that measure horses at the shows are supposed to be trained to measure correctly according to the rule book. That includes exact initial and protest measurements. If the protested horses are given an allowance of 1/4 to ½ inch over 34 inches this year, what will the directors vote to allow next year?

7. Is it fair to give a height allowance to the show horses and not to all horses registered in AMHA? This new policy will destroy any hope of integrity in the honest size of the AMHA horse in the future. As President Want stated in his June 11, 2008, answers to one of our questions. “Integrity? That is what started this stuff. If the darn trainers and breeders had integrity, the Association would not need to change measuring or its protest rules.” However, the minutes report that he voted Yes, for this new policy of allowing a protested horse to be1/4 inch to 1/2 over the 34 inch height that would be a disqualification and still show in shows, keep all awards won except height awards, and remain registered with AMHA.

8. In answer to our question, “Will horses that are hardshipped measuring 34 inches or less after the base of the withers bylaw is implemented be remeasured at the top of the withers should that amendment pass next year. Will their hardshipped fees be refunded, and their registration certificates be revoked, if they measure over 34 inches tall. President Want answered, “everyone could position for their money back as this is no longer the same registry they joined.” With the passing of the new policy, this is certainly NOT the same registry we all joined.

When a person becomes a member of AMHA, they must agree to abide by all the associations rules, and when a person enters their horses in an AMHA show, they must agree to abide by all the show rules. The directors have prevented this from being possible.

Please all AMHA members, read these minutes, understand what the directors have done to the integrity of our Association and the honesty of our horse shows. Please write to your directors and insist that this new policy be rescinded. Don’t stop until you get answers. AMHA’s future depends on it.

C.A.R.E.

Concerned Advocates For Rule Enforcement
 

mizbeth

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Oh..................................MY...................................God!

What next, will this ever die or be corrected?

B
 

Just Us N Texas

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I guess I had better put on my flame suit. Let me expain that though most of our horses are A & R registered, I much prefer the R's. However, I can understand the 1/4 inch measurement being allowed for protests only, and according to what I read in Mona's post, that is the only instance it is to be used. For everyone that shows either A or R, I think we can understand and even applaud it. How many times have you been to a show and had your horse measure a little differently than a previous show? A lot of your measurements are dependent upon the person with the stick! At one A show we attended, the measuring was done by a veterinarian. My under 30 inch stallion (29 1/2 ) actually, measured 30 1/2, the veterinarian was not used to measuring minis, and obviously did not care if he got accurate measurements or not! From show to show, our horses can go 1/4 inch either way. Last year at Nationals, one lady had her horse measured 5 times to get it in the under 38 category! Now I know this many measurements are not allowed, but somehow she got by with it. Measuring at shows is so very controversial, that I can see that 1/4 inch rule to stop some of the arguments or controversies, be it A or R.
 

RockRiverTiff

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I really don't see this as the scandal that everyone else seems to, and I breed for horses that are consistently the smallest in their classes. Take a look at your ruler--a horse could gain 1/4" by taking a deep breath. This isn't a huge conspiracy--it's just one more step to ensure that measuring doesn't turn into a witch hunt. They can't get into the class measuring that 1/4" over the first time, but in this way we ensure that a person isn't unneccessarily punished for a horse (or measurer) that might just be nervous. Two inches is willful deceit. 1/4" is to me just an honest mistake or a moment's difference.
 

minimomNC

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I think this answers the question about anything measuring over 34"

If the horse measures above AMHA height requirements at its respective age it then loses ALL awards, points, and placings for that show.
 

maestoso

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I agree with RockRiver 100%

This conspiracy theory is getting completely ridiculous! Nobodys trying to measure in a horse that is 3 inches too tall. Its 1/4 of an inch for petes sake, and ONLY matters in a protest situation. It is not going to snowball. I don't believe for one second that next year it will be a half inch and the year after 3/4s of an inch...... that assumption or worry has NO logic. I'm amazed that we even have directors after all this crap.

What are the directors doing to AMHA you ask???

What do you think all of THIS is doing to AMHA?

If THIS is a scandal, a conspiracy, a big problem, I'm afraid of what people would act like in a REAL problem. Maybe these directors need to go into hiding....
 

bingo

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I beg to differ Matt. This is a big deal. First off we all know the reality is that a 34.50 to 35.00 inch horse can and do get measured into AMHA at shows. They measure in as 34.00 so now with the extra .25 in leeway that is allowing horses taller then 34.50 to easily show. The issue becomes when does it stop or when do you just admit that there is several AMHA World Champion horses that are honestly and truly nice horses and honestly and truly over 34.00 inches. Just give them their own class and call it good.
 
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LisaF.

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I posted on Mary Lou's thread and to be honest Mona - I am too upset to post right not - All I can say is in my oppinion AMHA DIRECTORS. ETC IS WRONG - and is HURTING THE REPUTATION OF AMHA.

Maybe this was the answer to my long post about concerned about the price of miniature horses.

Ok..I don't want this to get deleted ...I will post when I calm down.
 

Boinky

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I can see the "zoo factor" effect being a problem..but i do see where it will snowball if it's "allowed". they do need to eliminate the "zoo factor". If there is leeway people ARE going to push it.. it never fails.happens in EVERY aspect of life. If the lines are not clearly drawn they will be pushed.

Conspiracy or not i've been to enough show's both A and R that I know measurements are pushed and sometimes by quite a large number not just 1/4 of an inch.
 

faithfarm

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The example is a senior horse that measures 32 3/4, not 34 3/4. 1/4 doesn't mean anything, and I challenge anyone to consistantly measure a horse, set it up again, and get within 1/4 on 3 measurements. If a horse moves at all it can mean a 1/2 difference; they lean, they breath, and they tense up. I say bravo to the directors.

My 5X World Champion and 2X Reserve World Grand Champion is an honest 30" and I always sweated the measurement. Luckily, he never measured over 30 and once even measured 28 3/4??? I've never been afraid of the horses that were 1/4"-1/2" over the height class, it was the 1 1/2" overs that ticked me off.

Rick
 

Genie

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Pardon my ignorance but it seems that a horse trained to show should not be overly tense and nervous with a measuring.

If 34 is the measurement then so be it!

I compare it to "being just a little bit pregnant" or being a "little bit over" or being "just a little lie"

Here's an idea, make sure your horse is a little bit under and then it won't be a little bit over
 

Field-of-Dreams

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Pardon my ignorance but it seems that a horse trained to show should not be overly tense and nervous with a measuring.
I have two mares that we show that are afraid of the stick and tense up. They've never been hit with it or anything, they just don't like it! Neither one is overly keen on strangers, ether....


Lucy
 

MinisOutWest

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HUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMM........This one's deep!!!! But I do not dare say a word on this forum. sorry. My thoughts are to myself. I will just deal with it at the show, with that steward, on that day, during that time of measurement. Because it will be totally different at the next show....and we will start all over again with a new stick...... Packing now for tomorrows show.
See Ya There!!
 

Cathy_H

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What are the directors doing to AMHA you ask??? What do you think all of THIS is doing to AMHA?
They're not fixing the problem, they keep trying to come up with temporary solutions to please the rule breakers............ It really isn't broken so don't try to fix it with changing the heights!!! RE READ the rules & stand by & FOLLOW them! Again I ask WHY is this so hard to do - I guess it is too simple !! :DOH! .......... It may not be a scandal but it is catering to some peoples personal agendas.
 
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LisaF.

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Genia and CathyH I agree with both of your post 100%

CathyH - I think you have it exactly right!

Rick you say you challange anyone to measure a horse 3 times and get the same height - Maybe I am misreading what you are saying. Before I send in paperword I will not send in the measurement until I have had at MINIUMUM 3 of the measurements be exact.

If you don't agree how can your horse be an honest 30"?

This is just WRONG anyway you look at it. RULES ARE RULES - AMHA was built on miniature horses 34" AND UNDER - I don't care if you show or if you don't show.
 

Windhaven

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In my opinion this is wrong..


The horses get 3 chances to measure when they get to the show. They should also get 3 chances to measure to get the same height when there is a protest. Don't change the height just because it is a protest. It is up to the handler to keep the horse/s calm during measuring and they should be able to do it during a protest. Because if the horse is that close then it will be stressful no matter if it is just to get them into the show/class or if it is a protest.

I guess if they allow the !/4" over then the protester should not have to put up the $100.

It is interesting to see all the comments on here.
 

JWC sr.

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The only way I would have an opinion on this change would be if they were changed to be measured to the top of the withers like all other equine breeds.


Then I would say change any rule or regulation to make that work with the horses we currently have in the resgistry and move forward. In other words if a 34" horse will gain an average of 2" when measured at the withers then make the heigth 36", change all rules that need to be and move forward. But we all know that is not going to happen. LOL Oh Well


Past that I DO NOT CARE how they measure or where they measure to as long as it is consistent and fair across the board for everyone.


But while they are changing rules, I also think they need to install another rule stating that if a horse ever measure into a taller class at any show, it can never go back down to a smaller class. It is really sickening to see folks jockey the horses up and down to avoid competition as it suits the fancy of the owner or trainer.
 
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JMS Miniatures

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What are the directors doing to AMHA you ask??? What do you think all of THIS is doing to AMHA?
They're not fixing the problem, they keep trying to come up with temporary solutions to please the rule breakers............ It really isn't broken so don't try to fix it with changing the heights!!! RE READ the rules & stand by & FOLLOW them! Again I ask WHY is this so hard to do - I guess it is too simple !! :DOH! .......... It may not be a scandal but it is catering to some peoples personal agendas.
I totally agree, AMHA is just trying to keep it all safe and not to worry about it. I have a feeling they just opened up a whole new can of worms. They didn't fix a thing.

Pardon my ignorance but it seems that a horse trained to show should not be overly tense and nervous with a measuring.
I have two mares that we show that are afraid of the stick and tense up. They've never been hit with it or anything, they just don't like it! Neither one is overly keen on strangers, ether....


Lucy
I agree, even my well trained obstacle gelding who should be trained of everything gets tensed up with the stick. Its just a big object and a person they don't know has their life in the stewards hands it seems like lol.

I really don't see this as the scandal that everyone else seems to, and I breed for horses that are consistently the smallest in their classes. Take a look at your ruler--a horse could gain 1/4" by taking a deep breath. This isn't a huge conspiracy--it's just one more step to ensure that measuring doesn't turn into a witch hunt. They can't get into the class measuring that 1/4" over the first time, but in this way we ensure that a person isn't unneccessarily punished for a horse (or measurer) that might just be nervous. Two inches is willful deceit. 1/4" is to me just an honest mistake or a moment's difference.
I agree with you also a 1/4" off sometimes doesn't seem to be a big deal, but now I can see people going out there and register there 34.25" horse now that its ok at shows. I don't know I don't think this has solved everything just opened up a new problem.
 

gvpalominominis

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I think they should change the rule as to where you measure to be at the tallest hair at the tip of the ear.


That makes just about as much sense as measuring the last mane hair for height of a horse, a measuring point that can be rubbed off or accidentally clipped off and isn't a structual part of the body. If you stand two horses side by side and they are exactly the same height at... the tip of the ear, the top of the wither, behind the wither, tallest point of the rump... where ever you determine to measure them, are exactly the same.... yet one horse's mane grows longer down into it's back.... so its deemed 'shorter'... come on!!!!!!! You folks believe that's right or fair? You're right about it currently being the 'rule'.... but when they tried to rectify that by making the measurement an actual part of the horse... you shot it down! I'm not saying they shouldn't have to go through the 'proper' procedure to change any rule as designated in the by-laws..... but you should also have to go through proper procedure and due process to have it cancelled too! Isn't there a saying... two wrongs.. don't make a right?

My guess is there isn't a mini horse owner/breeder around that has horses at the upper end of the measurement, that wouldn't say go for it... make it the top of the wither for measurement and add 2"s to the standard. Surely, you all must see that they couldn't change the rule to measure at the top of the wither without an adjustment being made to the standard. They could stand to loose hundreds of registered horses if they didn't. Not to mention the law suits that would entail putting AMHA totally out of business.
 
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Southern_Heart

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I find AMHA really mind boggling lately! :DOH! It's change this and change that and oh lets do this and lets do that and none of it is any good!!


Sad to say that if they are making changes like this now.....What is to come further on down the road.


What is going to happen to the future AMHA when our children are all grown up. Its getting so out of hand that the kids just might not want to keep showing later on in life if AMHA keep changing things for the CHEATERS!!! Its not going to be worth the work and the fuss to show..


This whole thing on changes just makes me so sad.
 
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