Weaning and Two mares 'pulled down'

[Magic Marker Minis]

We decided to pull all four of our babies... They are all over 4 months... Some questions though:

1) Two of the four mares are 'pulled down.' One of the reasons we decided to wean. We had the two mares and their respective foals separated into their own pens. We had been feeding them alfalfa/grass hay mix twice a day with 1 scoop (half pound) of senior (14% protein) and 1/2 scoop of Calf Manna (25% protein) also twice a day (1 pound senior and 1/2 pound Calf Manna total per day.) But, we haven't seen any improvement. I expect that it was still all going to their foals.

Of the two foals, one of the foals (Diva) is also thin. Her mom is Miss Te, who is also the thinnest mare.

The other foal (Desi) is in great shape! Her mom was also one of the two fattest mares up until about 2 weeks ago when we noticed she was getting too thin...

If we continue to feed the alfalfa/grass hay mix with the senior feed to the thin mares, without their foals nursing, do you think it will eventually help them? (We will omit the Calf Manna)

2) What do you feed weaned foals? We can feed them the alfalfa/grass hay mix. I have read that you can also give the foals the senior... Do any of you guys feed senior to weanlings?

In regards to Diva, the foal that is too thin... Should I give her the Calf Manna as well as the Senior?

Thanks!

Kari

 

[chandab]

Yes, continue to feed those thinner mares as you are til they pick their weight back up, if they are thin along their backbone and hips, then I'd leave them on the Calf Manna til that fills in.

Last year, I fed my foals a growth formula for awhile, but I had to special order it and deal with a cranky feed store manager and not know whether or not he'd actually order it, so... I moved them over to senior feed top dressed with Calf Manna. I have 3 B-size colts, they shared their meals, so they shared 2 qts of senior top-dressed with 1 cup of Calf Manna 2x daily all winter; I reduced it this spring.

Excuse the clipper marks, but here they are in late May after their spring clip. It does show they wintered nicely.

Here's Junior, he actually looks a little thinner in this picture than he actually was, but you can still see he had a nice topline:



Here's Monte,



And, little Manny (he is a little thin on top and has a little more belly than the other two, but being the youngest and smallest of the three, he probably got pushed out of the feed dish some meals)



And, here they are about a month ago, after a reduction in their feed and the addition of pasture (it was also the day they were introduced to the adult geldings):

 

[targetsmom]

I am no expert, but I do like the effect of Calf Manna and I would keep feeding that to any thin ones. We are feeding some now (top dressing mostly) to our 2 mares and their 3 1/2 month old foals. The foals and one mare are all in very good weight (OK, a bit on the fat side LOL!) and one mare is just a bit thin but probably still a body score of close to 5. I talked to a Nutrena nutritionist a few years ago about feeding their Senior feed to young minis and she said there is absolutely no reason not to. All the things that make it good for older horses (easy digestion, 14% protein, etc) make it good for youngsters. For even more info, check out the care and feeding of weanlings on our website (4-H section): http://www.ontargetminiatures.com/images/pdfs/Weanlings_care_feeding.pdf This year's hay tests at 13.5% protein and 9% starch so I am thrilled that it will make feeding the weanlings and the insulin resistant mare lots easier! This was written when our hay tested only about 9% protein. Hay testing is highly recommended!!!

 

I'm with Chanda and Mary. I'd keep the mares and babies on the same feed you've been using, until they all pick up their lost weight. Without nursing, it shouldn't take really long for you to see a difference.

 

[ohmt]

Just remember that senior feed is a complete feed and if not fed as such does not hold much value. Since they are not getting a full meal from it, they aren't receiving the nutritional contents listed on the bag. The mares probably need more calories since the calf manna should be bringing their protein levels up. I prefer safe choice (a 14% feed) and I feed a lot of it. I weigh everything, but my mares get between 1.5-2.5 small coffee cans full 3x a day. Then they have free choice pasture and grass/alfalfa hay (which they barely touch). Even my toughest keepers stay nice and round on that.

 

[HGFarm]

I do not feed calf manna any more! They changed their recipe over the years and now use soy which is GMO. It's not good for digestion and other things, so I avoid it any way I can.

http://www.enlightenedhorsemanship.net/2010/03/is-there-soy-in-your-horses-feed/

There are also a lot of questions whether soy is contributing to insulin resistance. It's not a good thing, but it's cheap and the latest 'craze' that people think they are being healthy, but it's not.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

I woke up this a.m. thinking over everything you all have said:

While I agree that GMO soy has its potential problems, there really isn't a way of avoid GMO soy altogether. However, in moderation, soy is fine... It's only in America that we think - wow! If a little is GOOD, then a whole lot must be wonderful... Americans don't even know the definition of moderation...

Yes, I agree that Senior is supposed to be a complete feed... BUT, it begs the question about forage... How can a pelleted complete feed be good for a horse if you feed it without hay? Roughage is necessary for gut motility.

Targets Mom: I used your calculations last year for our horses... It made my head swim, but I licked it by using an Excel spreadsheet... I just can't find the document this year, so I'll have to start from scratch... The biggest problem I have is I do not know what protein % my hay is. I buy it from the Indian Rez. They grow alfalfa, but right now, it is mixed with something they call 'water grass.' I have searched and searched and cannot find anything on the Internet that explains what this is. When there is just a little water grass in the bale, I don't mind. It slows the Minis down so they don't gobble up their hay. However, the last two times I bought hay from the Rez, it had way more water grass in it... I still don't mind it for the adults... They're doing great on it except for the four mares with foals! Even poor alfalfa can contain 15% alfalfa, but mixed with the water grass it certainly reduces the percentage. I do know the horses eat the alfalfa first, then munch on the water grass at leisure.

I could probably buy some alfalfa pellets and know exactly how much protein, but it would still not satisfy their roughage requirements. I have also used beet pulp and I know that he does qualify as 'roughage' so I might be able to use beet pulp, alfalfa pellets, the senior and the Calf Manna in the proper combination to ensure the foals are getting their required 14-16% protein... My head is swimming again...

I also noted last night when I tried to feed the senior and Calf Manna to the babies that they seemed to be 'full' from eating hay all day. They mostly picked at it, especially Diva when I offered her just Calf Manna... So, how can I ensure they eat the supplements and still let them 'graze' all day?

I really want to get this right as I believe we have some really nice foals this year...

Kari

 

[targetsmom]

I highly recommend that you get your hay tested to at least know the protein content. Google "Hay testing" to find places that will test it, after you send them a sample. Nutrena tests hay at Equine Affaire for no cost, which is great but this year we borrowed a hay core sampler and sent the sample off. You can just take samples from several bales, bag them up, and send them in. Just testing for protein should be inexpensive.

Our (as yet unweaned) foals are on pasture all day but they really go after their grain AM & PM. They have had their own dishes since about 2 weeks of age and we just give them some of what Mom gets. Of course we can't control exactly how much they get which is why the foal of the mare we would like to put weight on is a bit pudgy! If your foals were just weaned, they will be stressed and could be dealing with ulcers, which might be why they won't eat grain. We always treat ours with at least Stomach Soother - or more aggressively - for ulcers during weaning time. Also, if you go back to our feeding instructions for weanlings, the ratio of forage to grain in the diet should be around 30:70. Show barns may feed a ratio of 10:90 but I like to give them more forage than that! But still, not as much forage as you are probably used to - or actually, more GRAIN (i.e. protein) than you may be used to. But that grain/protein is what prevents the "hay" bellies.

Oh, and I figure the amount of soy in the Calf Manna as a percent of the total diet is not something I am going to worry too much about. Plus I look at it as a temporary feed, only while they need that extra protein, mostly over that first fall and winter.

ETA: Lots of people use Senior feed as a grain not a complete feed. We have done so for years but the minis all get a vitamin mineral supplement too (Dr. Benson's TNS).

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

30:70 ratio... is that 30% forage and 70% grain?

Where do I find the 'stomach soother'? Is this a prescription? I had some ulcer guard, but gave it to the filly that colicked so bad a couple of months ago... She was in so much pain, just throwing herself around that I PUSHED Aleve and aspirin down her... I don't bother with the vets out here as they were worthless last year... We lost four mares to colic last year with their 'help.'

This year, we've had at least 10 episodes of colic but with my method - no food, access to water, pushing aspirin and Aleve down them in large doses (I calculate the dosage) and mineral oil - we've pulled everyone through.

Anyway... I've been wondering if I could give yogurt to them for stomach problems?

Well, we just went out to feed and I gave the four babies 1/2 pound each of the 14% senior and the 25% Calf Manna. We'll repeat tonight. When I did the calcs that will be19.5% protein per day. That was over an hour ago and they're still eating it. As soon as they finished it, we'll take some hay out to them for 'roughage.' Then tonight when we repeat it we'll give them some more hay for roughage (to nibble on through the night). I figure with the added hay, it will drop the protein percentage down a little bit more.

 

[chandab]

Stomach soother is OTC and its a papaya smoothie for lack of a better way to describe it. Here's the company's website: http://www.stomachsoother.com/

Looks like Heartland Vet Supply might carry it. I did buy some last year, and I could have sworn I bought it from a catalog other than either of these two, as I was able to buy just a few of their individual packets (looks like they sell it in little bottle now, I bought little foil like packets).

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

Heck, if it's papaya, I'll just buy the real deal... Our horses love fruit, I bet they'd love this, too. I was feeding grapes to the boys the other day... They practically mugged me for them... Some of them love melon - watermelon, honeydew especially. Not so much the cantaloupe. Oh, and for some unfathomable reason, they like oranges!!! Peel and all...

Weird.

Kari

 

[chandab]

I'd at least check the website and read up on it, as I'm not sure if there is more to it or not.

Heck, if it's papaya, I'll just buy the real deal... Our horses love fruit, I bet they'd love this, too. I was feeding grapes to the boys the other day... They practically mugged me for them... Some of them love melon - watermelon, honeydew especially. Not so much the cantaloupe. Oh, and for some unfathomable reason, they like oranges!!! Peel and all...

Weird.

Kari

 

[targetsmom]

I think it is just pureed papaya....

 

[Minimor]

I have to askhow many horses do you have? Im just wondering what your ratio of colic to horse numbers is, and have to askwhat is causing so much colic for you? Losing 4 horses to colic last year and 10 colic cases this year, that is an awfully high rate of colic for any farm.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

We're just west of Tucson in the desert on five acres. We have no pasture... We moved from a farm in Missouri where the Minis were able to graze 24/7... We moved a year ago last June. The heat was over 100 degrees last summer, week after week after week. The Minis were not drinking enough water, and even though we were using feed bunks and stall mats, they still managed to eat sand. We do have what they call a "mare motel" on the property... It's basically a shade barn with no sides.

We were totally unprepared for this kind of weather... We had conflicting advice from three different vets. One said, yes, let them eat even though they were colicking... Another said, no don't let them eat. It would take over four hours for a vet to even respond. We tried 'home remedies' from a so called reputable Mini breeder in Tucson, just to watch the mare die anyway.

When we moved out here we had 32 Miniatures. We lost the four mares and sold six last year. We've sold two this year and had four foals. We now have 24 Miniatures. Toni and I have had horses most of our lives... I've had Miniatures since 2007 and Toni has had Minis since 2009... Neither of us has had horses with colic in the past... It sucks!

I think this year the horses finally gotten acclimated to the heat and even though we've had the colic episodes, all but one has been mild and we've caught it fast... I find as long as we can dull the pain when the horse colics, keep them away from all feed (except water, of course), give them mineral oil and keep them moving (but not too much because the heat is unbearable and it exhausts them (and us) too quickly, we've been able to pull them out.

Kari

 

[disneyhorse]

I feel like you need to analyze your entire program if you are having that much colic. I've not really heard about aspirin or OTC stuff for colic. We have sand colic and 100 degree weather here in SoCal but the horses all seem comfortable enough, even ones that come from the Amish or Midwest. They seem to have a tougher time with their "winter coats prepared for snow" but our winters have 85 degree days!

Something isn't working on your place... Can you have someone visit and walk your management practices?

 

[Riverrose28]

Have you tried giving sand clear once a month? I just had a terrable colic because of sand, and I'm in the east not nearly as much sand as you have. You could also give metamucil it's basically the same thing. In my state you can't buy medicine without a script from the vet, or get it right from the vet. So my vet once told me to keep tagamint on hand for ulcers till she could get here with gastro gard. To give 8 tabs, mixed in warm water by sringe.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

Yeah, I forgot. I get the big canisters of generic Metamucil and give it to them once they get over the colic and we've been giving it once a month for 3 days.

 

[disneyhorse]

I would give it every Saturday/Sunday, or five to seven days a month. Three probably isn't adequate if you're in a sandy area.

And I'm not sure how much you are feeding, but if its less than 1/4 cup (loose, not pelleted) then it's too little.

For horses with confirmed sand, you may need to be feeding 1/4 to 1/2 cup daily for a month straight to clear excess sand out of the gut. (Full size horses, two full cups daily).

I'd consult with your vet though... Find a good one.

 

[HGFarm]

Magic Marker do you have gravel or crushed granite at your place? This is a great colic causer. It's not that AZ has 'sand' it's just dirt lots- hard packed with a lot of caliche, and some rocks thrown in for good measure. It's not like the shifting sands of the Sahara, lol

I have lived here 40 years and not had colic cases like that, and many of my horses were brought in from other states and cooler climates. I am assuming they also have free choice salt blocks?