We have met the enemy...

Discussion in 'Miniature Horse Forum' started by Jean_B, Apr 4, 2013.

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  1. Apr 4, 2013 #1

    Jean_B

    Jean_B

    Jean_B

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    Yes, for those of you of a (ahem) certain age, I am quoting from Pogo. And yes, WE (collectively...both experienced and the newbies) are the enemy when it comes to the state of the miniature horse industry today. NOT because of so-called "over breeding" but because of POOR PLANNING in breeding.

    On another social media, there was a post about the need to know pedigrees in dogs...and I quote: "Pedigrees are more important than names on a piece of paper. To top breeders, pedigree analysis is more important than DNA because a top breeder can "read" genetic soundness."

    It may have been posted on a dog site, but it is true for the miniature horse breeder too. Breeding a mare that is "cute" but cheap with poor quality genetics to a stallion that is cheap and poor quality genetics is NO DIFFERENT than allowing your female dog to run loose and be bred to whatever mutt happens into your yard!! And you know what happens in the dog-world....those pups end up being given away or disposed of...and that is what happens in the miniature horse world. In the wrong hands, that cheap, poorly conformed mare will continue to spew out a foal every year that will serve no purpose and could likely end up being abused/neglected when the "romance" of having that little horse wears off.

    FOR THE NEWBIE - PLEASE...before you go looking for a pet for your kids and decide to get that cute filly because "we might want to have our kids experience having a new foal" (never mind that the filly has a parrot-mouth, crooked legs, etc.) get a gelding. LEARN about how to give TOP QUALITY care. If you don't have any experience with horses, LEARN from your horse and from others that can teach you. And definitely do NOT get a stallion for your kids if you don't have any experience. GET A GELDING...a stallion has one thing on his brain when he reaches a certain age and it certainly isn't listening to someone who doesn't know what they are doing. As yourself - these little horses live a LONG time (many times over 25 years)...ARE YOU READY FOR THAT KIND OF COMMITMENT??

    FOR THE BREEDER - PLEASE...before you sell to that newbie - make sure they are getting the best "fit" for their circumstances. If they come to you wanting a pet, for the animal's sake please don't sell them an intact colt because 9 times out of 10, it will end up being dumped at an auction or sold to someone down the street when it gets to be too much for them to handle. If they know nothing...for pete's sake, don't sell them a mare 'because they might want a foal some day'. Steer them in the direction of a quiet, well trained gelding, and give them written instructions on care, feeding, and stabling/exercise needs of that horse.

    OK - off my soapbox. Fire away!
     
    wildoak, KLM, DixieGirl89 and 10 others like this.
  2. Apr 4, 2013 #2

    Minimor

    Minimor

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    Well said Jean!!!
     
  3. Apr 4, 2013 #3

    minih

    minih

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    I agree Jean and try to do that, but beware it doesn't always work in your favor. I had a lady call me this past weekend looking for a mini for her two young children, ages 4 and 7. She had found my number by searching on the internet and found my website, so called to ask about mini's. I told her I had two geldings for sale, I told her I would make her a deal if she would take the two geldings together since I also do not like to sell horses where there will be no company for them. They live not too far away, the next town over and assured her I could help her with feeding and care. I told her whether she bought from me or someone else please do not buy a young colt for her two kids that someone would be hurt before it was over. She wanted to buy a young foal instead of one grown, which I do not have at the moment, and then she said I could probably get a colt and then geld it later. I then tried to explain some colts behavior while waiting for a teste to drop. [​IMG] My talk fell on deaf ears. People do not want to hear what you have to say if it interferes with their plans. I don't care if she didn't want my geldings, they will find a good home.
     
  4. Apr 4, 2013 #4

    muffntuf

    muffntuf

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    Good common sense.
     
  5. Apr 4, 2013 #5

    Jean_B

    Jean_B

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    You know I admire you and your program....and you can take a lot of comfort in knowing you did the right thing for those geldings...and just remember....you can't fix 'stupid'.
     
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  6. Apr 4, 2013 #6

    Riverrose28

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    Jean, thank you! Very well said. I would like to add one thing about new people wanting a pet for their kids, an older well trained mini is so much better then an untrained foal or untouched young horse. On another note, I just lost a sale, a potential buyer saw one of my stallions that I have listed, they e-mailed me requesting more info and pictures which I sent. They ooohhed and aawwed and said they wanted to purchase him. I think great, and then I start asking some questions as I want to know where my guy is going and what they want to use him for, as he has been a proven stud for the last five years, although he will stand and show but doesn't drive. They said that their daughter, age 10 wanted him. I said well then I would recommend gelding him for her, I could do it here if they made a deposit or sell him with a gelding contract. I never heard back. Oh well.
     
  7. Apr 4, 2013 #7

    newtominis

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    I can't agree more...I got my first mini who is a gelding, and he is more than a handful on his own!
     
  8. Apr 4, 2013 #8

    Marty

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    Its because they have breeding on the mind so they can make a dime or two. They may not tell you this up front and lie about it being "for the kids" but most have definate intentions to breed any two ends that they can fit together to reproduce anything they can put a price tag on and get some change in their greedy pockets.
     
  9. Apr 4, 2013 #9

    Riverrose28

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    I need to add something about pedigree. I own a stallion the one in my avatar and several mares that are his only. All have great pedigrees and have all earned their fair share of awards and championships, so I price accordingly. Last year I had a breeder of big horses come by wanting either a mare or stallion, she wasn't interested in the geldings. Said she only wants a pet. I offered her several of my registered mares, a couple that could be good show horses, but, I was offering them at reduced prices since I can't show them all, and am no longer breeding for profit. She wasn't interested in any of them, but, she wanted the one filly we were planning on showing this year that is full sibling to a World top five, and is priced accordingly. I told her her price but was low if she showed her. She said she wasn't interested in showing or breeding and couldn't understand why this fillies price was higher then the others. I explained her pedigree, going back several generations, all show horses, all famous. She told me she was new to minis and didn't know anything about pedigrees, so I gave her a couple copiies or MHW. I also gave her some web-site info so she could check on pedigrees and show quality. She said she'd get back to me. I'm still waiting. I think this woman knew a great horse when she saw one, just didn't want to pay for it, and maybe she didn't know anything about mini pedigrees, but obviously was not interested in learning.
     
  10. Apr 4, 2013 #10

    Scooter

    Scooter

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    Hi Jean_B,

    This information would be SO valuable to anyone doing a Google search like "should a beginner buy a colt" or something like that...

    Unfortunately, by the time they get in here to this excellent Forum it may already be too late. That's what happened to us but we have no intention of getting rid of Scooter now - he's a great wee fella and we're 100% committed to him - he is just very highly sexed for a 9mth old and practising on the new yearling colt (who is ready to be gelded in the next couple of weeks) we have just bought to be his friend. Never crossed my mind that Scooter would want to make babies with a COLT but my husband who is from a farming background says that is not unusual behaviour. We will be getting Scooter gelded too but as you say they display some undesirable behaviour when waiting for them to drop fully! The horses paddock is at the other side of our garden fence and my daughter keeps asking "Mummy, why is Scooter's..." and I try to distract her and she says "But why is..." and I distract her - lol. She won't need the facts of life explained to her before too long :/

    As for the Breeder who sold Scooter to us - she was very nice but we explained we were new to horses and that he was for our 11 year old daughter. We trusted her - which seems to be a foolish thing to do these days...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2013
  11. Apr 5, 2013 #11

    mdegner

    mdegner

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    I had someone reach out the other day because her daughter wanted to breed a little 3 year old mare they had and experience having a baby. I asked them about their reasons for wanting to breed and mentioned that minis can have significant foaling problems and it's not for the feint of heart. She wanted to know about stud fees and how to locate a stud, etc. Her horse does not have papers but a nice little pet mare (in my opinion). I told her we weren't even doing much breeding because there are so many minis out there and we have a limit for how many we have on the farm. She let me know the main reason was her daughter wanted to drive a pair of minis and her dad told her she couldn't buy another horse but could buy a breeding and have a baby. So I told her she may have a hard time finding someone who would breed an unregistered horse but that maybe if she works on her husband, they can look at this differently and take advantage of all the GREAT geldings out there. Sadly for less or the same amount of money as a breeding. I don't know if that will work or not. I tried......

    I am not picking on them or judging them. They have other animals and are farmers and have a different way of looking at animals than many of us do. I hope they reconsider and find a nice gelding.
     
  12. Apr 5, 2013 #12

    dannigirl

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    What they are not looking at is that if they breed and get a foal from the mare, it could be way taller or way shorter than its mother and not do well as a team anyway. They need (and I know they won't understand) to find another horse that matches their mare for a team and they will be much happier with the results.
     
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  13. Apr 5, 2013 #13

    MyMiniGal

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    It amazes me, at how many people want to "breed" animals, they know nothing about. I was looking for either a gelding or a mare, when I went looking for my first Mini. I had an opportunity to get a beautiful gelding, from another place, but they wanted almost 4 times as much for him, than I got Halo for. I at first thought that was what I was going to have to pay, but then Halo sort of fell into my lap. Yes, she is a mare, but she will never, ever be bred. For one, she has a slight overbite, and another, that isn't what I want. If I want another mini, I will go look for another mare or a gelding. I use to breed Parrotlets and went through a lot of heartache with them. I will never ever breed anything again. I know my heart wouldn't be able to take it. As for it being "for the kids". I work at a preschool/daycare...I can say with certainy that the kids won't care. I mean, yeah, once the foal is born, it would be oooh, and awww, but after awhile, most of them will careless. Unfortunately, things like video games take over when they are way too young.
     
  14. Apr 6, 2013 #14

    MountainWoman

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    MDegner, I see ads all the time on FB mini pages offering stud service to unregistered mares. Usually the price is 100 to 150.
     
  15. Apr 6, 2013 #15

    mdegner

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    MoutainWoman, that may be. I sure as heck wasn't going to help them find a stud . . .
     
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  16. Apr 6, 2013 #16

    ruffian

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    OK - on MY Soapbox - Miniature horses are pretty much the ONLY breed where folks "New" to horses buy a colt or filly, and the first thought is "LET'S BREED IT!" Let's keep this little knock kneed big headed long backed little colt a stud "because he's SOOOO cute" and find a matching mare and MAKE SOME MONEY! And they do - a parrot mouthed big headed mare who's feet go in six different directions, but she's a LOUD pinto with a LONG MANE AND TAIL! Definintely quality in the making! These folks wouldn't dream of keeping an Arabian or Quarter Horse stallion, or letting their 10 year old daughter handle it. Yes, there are always ads on Craig's List, etc., for a "Show Quality" stud for only $100 or $150 stud fee. I've seen the ads, and the corresponding photos, and I cringe. I had a lady come up to me at an event a few weeks ago who had bought a mare at auction, and then, of course, bought a young colt, but didn't want to wait, and wanted to breed to my World Grand Champion Senior Stallion. She asked my stud fee, and (knowing where she was going with it), told her it was $3,000 to approved mares. She got offended - and wanted to know why it was so much?? I told her his record spoke for itself. She then mentioned an ad on Craig's list, and I told her she was welcome to check that stallion out. Think I made her mad because I haven't heard back LOL!

    Many reputable breeders are trying to promote geldings, but everybody thinks their going to get rich if they start breeding. Geez wish it would happen soon, cause I've been working at this for 20 years and am lucky to break even!!!
     
  17. Apr 7, 2013 #17

    LindaL

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    I so agree with this!

    I cringe every time I check out Craigslist and see ads for a Mini stud that is a "kid's pony"...oh but wait...In the very next sentence they say he is a wonderful stud and produces cute babies! UGH! Looking at the pics they have on the ad, the stallion usually looks dwarfy and certainly not worthy of keeping as a breeding stallion! I have "tried" to educate people by replying to their ads with information, but it always falls on deaf ears...*sigh*
     
  18. Apr 7, 2013 #18

    Jill

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    You are so right on!

    I'm not in this to make money. Ha! This is a lot harder than things that pay much better...

    A long time ago, someone told me that you shouldn't breed two horses (or two anythings) if you would not be thrilled with an exact duplicate of what you consider the lesser of the pair. I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

    There are only so many people that can and would want to own a miniature horse, and we are bringing forth animals that may be here for thirty or more years. It's a steep responsibility, and I think it's important to not just make something because you can.
     
  19. Apr 7, 2013 #19

    targetsmom

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    What really scares me about all this is a thread on here recently about who is still breeding and who is giving it up and why. There seemed to be a lo of us smaller breeders - that DO breed two minis together that we would be thrilled with an exact duplicate of either one - that are going out of breeding. I think that is sad. And for me, a major reason is that people see what they can get on Craig's list and have no idea of what the difference is between that and quality. I figured out that just giving each mare the shots she needs during her pregnancy costs $500 so how can I sell a foal for that? I would rather stop breeding and keep what I have. Look for them in the show ring, at 4-H events, and not reproducing. Yes, we geld all the colts and will geld our stallion too, so the 4-Hers can use him for a project.

    I really think that being "cute" is a liability, and not an asset, for miniature horses.
     
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  20. Apr 7, 2013 #20

    sfmini

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    The problem is that those "breeders" would be thrilled with an exact replica of their pair because they think their horses are perfect, and hey, look at their darling little dwarf with the wild pinto markings! A world beater for sure, so tiny and colorful.
     
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