watching the driving classes at Worlds

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

So I thought I might wake this forum up a bit (its been slow of late

- are you all watching Worlds?) by opening up a discussion. Please this isn't aimed at any individual trainer/driver or horse and I don't want it to become unfriendly just thought it might be fun to talk about the issue. I am watching the driving classes at Worlds and enjoying them but it seems to me that almost all (there have been a few exceptions of course) of the horses, when asked to walk, fall apart. They loose collection, tip their noses up and drop their backs. I think this is a result of wearing the check and having it adjusted too short for that horse as well as incomplete training. Do our present rules encourage the use of equipment that is not appropriate for the training level of the horses? I know some feel checks should never be used (Rabbit I know you have strong feelings about this subject

) but if we are going to be using them are we doing so properly?

 

[Performancemini]

Yep. This could open a can of a variety of worms and butterflies LOL! I am definitely more in Rabbitfizz's direction. We sent a mini to a very good professional trainer to get him started as we didn't have enough time to put that consistant start to him. I was actually surprised (pleasantly) to find when we pick him up that he HAD been trained with NO check of any kind, and he had a nice head and neck set and easy on the reins/bit. We like the check loose. I dislike seeing horses who look like the checks are so snug and the "collection" comes from what looks like a tight rein and check. I realize that if a horse gets too hot over something that you might see this; but for the horse that is "comfortable" in what he is doing; it shouldn't have that 'going to explode' tight look IMO. We have a video of a clinic with Larry Parnell where he explains that a driving horse should NOT be checked that tight and he shows the looseness.

 

[madmax]

Performance I agree with you about the check rein should be looser. I prefer that my driving horse should appear to have a natural form, not one that appears forced.

In earlier days, some judges would actually test some check reins with their hands in the lineup and would (supposedly) mark down if it was too tight.

Watching the classes, I don't understand why some drivers are leaning so far back on the seat in non-roadster classes instead of being erect, is it just a habit or something else.. Are they leaning on the horses' mouths? I am not a fan of the resulting profile.

 

[targetsmom]

I definitely noticed the poor walking but that was just one of many things I thought I was seeing. I know it may look very different when you are there in person, but I have a really hard time seeing a difference in many of the horses when asked to change from the pleasure trot to working trot (and back again). Shouldn't I be seeing an extension of stride, not just the legs moving faster? And the other thing I noticed was that the winner was often - to my admittedly not well-trained eye - a single pleasure horse in a country pleasure class or a country pleasure horse in a classic pleasure class. Shouldn't they be penalized instead of rewarded for showing in the wrong class?

I use a loose side check which is mostly so they won't put their heads down in the lush grass I often drive on. I have no trouble when I remove it... as long as I am on my toes when driving Princess in grass!

As far as the leaning back goes - I assume that will affect the balance of the cart so maybe it does change how the horse moves???

 

[Katie Iceton]

Also why they feel the need to have a martingale and a check on every horse in the ring...when those two pieces of equipment do entirely opposite things to horses heads...my answer to your question though Reignmaker...is that when using a check and martingale on the horses...they can't move their heads...therefore there isn't any actual engagement in the hind end...its mainly the front end pulling and the use of weighted training boots to give the horses the "illusion" or engagement and tracking up.

For example, I recently went to a clinic with a prominent clinician and we worked on the lengthen trot with my gelding. We did an exercise that had us go from a collected trot through a corner (his head came up, hind end drops etc) to a lengthening (true extension is something that is asked for at FEI levels in driven dressage) where his frame lengthened but his rhythm didn't speed up. However for him to give me that lengthening, his head came down to almost level with his withers. He was required to remain on the bit but his frame had to change in order for him to achieve the results we were looking for.

If I had a check on him as seen in many of the classes I watched at worlds...he would have simply gone faster in speed because he had no real way to lengthen his stride without using his topline and keeping that engagement from the hind end.

I know that this may cause an uproar...and its simply what I know from having re-trained a "pleasure driving" horse for CDE...when I took off her check and martingale...she had no idea how to hold herself up...and her back end was less than useless...her front end was fairly animated but her back end was doing no work.

 

[Katie Iceton]

As a side note...would love to see someone go into the ring at a higher level without a check or martingale on....as in AMHA a check used to be optional...not sure if it still is...

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I love the responses so far. Yes, I agree about the check, either loose enough not to interfere or skip it entirely. I drive with out one and start all my horses with out as well but once they are going well I will introduce a check just to be sure they will accept it if at some future time they are required to. I always try to remember that life changes the best laid plans and my horses my not always be in my care so they should know how to accept whatever they might be asked to in the future.

Madmax, I am not a big fan of the leaning back either but I have to admit I am more inclined to show in driven dressage classes than breed shows and it would not be admired by judges there I don't think. Target, you spotted the other issues I see. While occasionally you will see a true extension it is definitely a rarity. I expect it is mostly because if a horse can not collect properly they can not extend either and I also agree about the horses who are dropped down a class that do well. It seems (I am trying to understand that for some these horses are a business so winning affects the bottom line) that if you don't think your horse is a contender in its proper division (referring to their way of going) then you just need to show them in the lower class (lower as in action and carriage not lower as in less important)and because they are flashier than the horses who match the class description they will win. I'm pretty sure this has been the case for many years and I recall over hearing someone at a show commenting that they were showing in Country pleasure because their young horse just couldn't maintain the lift needed for single pleasure yet. Their plan was to show country pleasure for a couple of years and bump the horse to single pleasure when they were older. Now I don't see anything wrong with this on first glance but if that horse is a single pleasure horse in its way of going and its carriage then is it really meeting the description of a country pleasure horse?

Katie, I'm not sure if the check is optional but it should be. The martingale is but people I've talked to say it 'completes the look' and I see so many that are not adjusted correctly. I think many use them with out any real knowledge of their purpose.

 

[Katie Iceton]

The definitions that they have come up with for the different driving classes are bizarre...and I had a judge explain to me once that in the pleasure driving classes they expect to see the check engaged on the horses (aka the black beauty effect) while it wasn't as important in say a western pleasure class. To me there is the way the horses choose to carry themselves and with proper training and work they develop a working frame, where they learn to be on the bit, having impulsion and the eventual ability to collect and lengthen their trot.

I don't understand the need to make a horse move a certain way....I have my mare who moves with her head more level with her withers currently because she is still working on her frame, and impulsion (was the pleasure driving mare) and then I have my gelding who is a little farther along and I can ask for collection and lengthening and he tends to carry his head higher and more upright....but I am driving them where they are comfortable, with impulsion and a working frame...not working towards fitting into a "type".

 

[Minimor]

unfortunately, in the show ring many (most?) do not care about the rear end. They want to have the front end elevated so that the front legs have elevation and reach, it doesn't matter that the back is hollow nor that the hind legs are just trailing along. That is the reason some check their horses up so high--and I'm certain that some others do it just because they see others doing it--they have no idea what they are really doing, but they saw someone win with a tight check and so they use a tight check too.

Personally I like to see action on both ends and the dressage trainer in me likes the back to be rounded, not hollowed! I do wish judges would pin the horses that go properly, with rounded back, natural carriage and balanced action....but too often the front end is mostly what they judge.

 

[susanne]

I hate the very idea that entering country pleasure or classic pleasure (or western country pleasure in AMHR) would be seen as "dropping down", as they are all supposed to be equal, just differentiated according to types of movement.

 

[ckmini]

100% agree with Minimor. I had been working on an answer to this and she said it perfectly.

Unfortunately it needs to start with our trainers and judges. I so badly wish more emphasis in our mini/pony world was put into the training of the horse as opposed it it's natural ability. (soap box for a moment: I think this is also what drives (pun haha) many people away from the breed show world as well) If the emphasis was a horse that truly tracked up, rounded it's back and engaged it's hind end, was comfortable in the bridle on light contact we'd be so much better off, not to mention this would encourage people to keep training and progressing with their horses (aka keep showing, aka $$ into the local clubs and registries).

I love a big moving horse with a high head carriage, but it's heartbreaking to watch some horses checked up, hollow back, jaws tense and pulling the cart from the bit, let alone the poor horses that flip over backwards because they feel they have no where to go but up.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Personally I like to see action on both ends and the dressage trainer in me likes the back to be rounded, not hollowed!

There does seem to be a big difference in what is considered correct in the breed ring and what the rest of the driving world looks for.

 

[targetsmom]

Yes, the dressage rider in me hates that hollowed back look too, and often I have found those horses end up with "issues" and need a rest. One problem I see with the three different classes is that they seem to be based on leg action and head position, but the two are not always related, depending on the level of training. My Classic Pleasure/ADS driving mare Princess CAN pick her feet up in the pasture but normally goes with a long sweeping stride and a low headset. The photo without driver below. This is what I have gotten used to but the two new mares (buckskin and another B/W below) both have a bit more action (I am thinking maybe Country Pleasure) but they are very green and not on the bit yet. I think once they are on the bit their headsets will turn out to be just fine, without the use of a tight overcheck. But what if they want to travel with a lower headset - but still on the bit? I am pretty sure they would not be looked at in an AMHA or AMHR show..... Comments?