Watched the Western Regional AMHA

[RhineStone]

I got a chance to watch some of the Western Regional AMHA show this weekend. I haven't been to a mini breed show in a while, so it was fun to be able to "go" to one.

I got to watch a Classic, Country, and Single Pleasure driving class, as well as the Country and Single finals. There were some nice moving horses there. I pretty much pinned the Classic class the way the judge did, except I reversed the top pair, but could have gone either way. Both of those horses were very "fluid" movers compared to the others in the ring. Some of the other classes weren't "judgeable" from the camera angle (left it in the corner of the ring or didn't show the class placings). Of course, with the camera angle, you don't get to see the whole ring anyway.

I did get to see all the Youth Showmanship patterns, and pinned those classes exactly as the judge. The kids that won were tremendous!!!

Some things that surprised me in relation to the ADS driving that we do now is that the AMHA drivers were only in the ring for 5 min. or less! ADS classes are like 20 min.! You better not mess up in 5 min. because you don't get much of a second chance! (I realize they have to get through 100 some odd classes in the weekend.)

I was also surprised that when the line up was called, drivers came in the line up from all directions in the back of the arena. We try to come in off the rail straight to our spot. It's a little more "organized" that way.

Then, when they got their horse stopped, 80% of the drivers immediately dropped their hands on their knees and some even put their whip in the holder!

That is a major no-no in an ADS show. You have to "show" the entire class, not "collapse" when you are "done". You are still being judged even in line up. We knew that even for our 4-H riding shows! That was probably the biggest thing that surprised me.

I would have also liked to see more space in between the carts, at least one cart's width. Some seemed a little close and could have potential "wheel-kissing".

They seemed to congregate close together. Is it also looked down upon to circle back to find your own spot on the rail? There were quite a few drivers that were "bunched" up. The camera view would be blank, and then a bunch of horses would go past. I teach my students to "make the judge work", and find your own spot on the rail. If you are too close to your fellow competitor, you make it really easy for the judge to compare you!

Everyone seemed to be having a good time, and the horses were good for the most part.

I didn't do so well picking the halter champions. I wanted to see more balance and what was picked was definitely more level in the croup than I would like (and I even have part-Arabs). Very few of the halter horses tracked up at all at the walk or trot. I guess that is the difference nowadays between a halter and a performance horse.

All in all, it was fun for me to watch. From the camera angle, some of those horses didn't look just 34"! Some of those handlers must have been awful short!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I was informed at my last show (thankfully before my halter classes) that they aren't judging action at the walk and trot but rather if the horse tracks straight from the rear view. And silly me, here I'd been trotting my horse out to show his paces!

When I slowed down and did that silly little shuffle like everyone else, suddenly we placed well. Hmm....

Leia

 

[targetsmom]

Just curious Myrna- in those driving classes (sorry I missed them) could you see a difference between the different trots?

 

[RhineStone]

Just curious Myrna- in those driving classes (sorry I missed them) could you see a difference between the different trots?

You know, in the big scheme of things, no, I don't remember seeing much of a difference, not like an ADS show where if the judge can't tell the difference, you won't place well at all. They used different terms for the trots but I couldn't "define" what each one was based on what I saw. (What is a Pleasure Trot?

) The Single Pleasure horses had more "reach" in one of the trots, but I picked the horses that had reach, roundness (knee action), and fluidity.

Myrna

 

[Sue_C.]

Then, when they got their horse stopped, 80% of the drivers immediately dropped their hands on their knees and some even put their whip in the holder! That is a major no-no in an ADS show. You have to "show" the entire class, not "collapse" when you are "done". You are still being judged even in line up. We knew that even for our 4-H riding shows! That was probably the biggest thing that surprised me.

I know what you mean!

That last on-line show I watched, I was absolutely shocked when the drivers all went to the middle of the ring, all akilter, sat back in thier seats, stuck whips in holders, and even talking loudly across others to each other...laughing and carrying on...and the judge standing behind them, STILL writing on his judging papers. O-M-G-!!

We show to Equine Canadian rules, which are very similar, if not the same as, your ADS rules. the most we will do, as long as the judge has that paper in his hands, is talk "out the side of your mouth" to the guy next to you...if he is close enough...

It shows a HUGE lack of knowledge and basic RESPECT for the judges to behave in this manner, IMO.

 

[Sandee]

I know what you mean!

That last on-line show I watched, I was absolutely shocked when the drivers all went to the middle of the ring, all akilter, sat back in thier seats, stuck whips in holders, and even talking loudly across others to each other...laughing and carrying on...and the judge standing behind them, STILL writing on his judging papers. O-M-G-!!

We show to Equine Canadian rules, which are very similar, if not the same as, your ADS rules. the most we will do, as long as the judge has that paper in his hands, is talk "out the side of your mouth" to the guy next to you...if he is close enough...

It shows a HUGE lack of knowledge and basic RESPECT for the judges to behave in this manner, IMO.

I think you have to think about where many of these people came from or who gave them their instructions. Many are from the BIG horse world, or their instructors, are where, at least at open shows, the atmosphere is a bit more relaxed and they do joke and talk in line up. I'd bet that they simply don't know any better. Many of the drivers don't ever have proper instruction on driving but are handed the reins and told to treat it just like riding!

I don't mean this as a criticism but just what happens. I know, that's how I started!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The "big horse world" is where I was taught it is never okay to act in such a manner until the judge turns in his cards.

That was drummed into my head in 4-H, held true at local saddleclub shows and was also observed at Arabian A circuit shows. At my local mini shows, both A and R, I have always seen drivers respecting that unwritten rule as well. Sometimes they'll put their whip down prematurely but they stay sitting up tall and silent with the reins held properly until the last judge turns in his card, then everyone relaxes and starts talking. Many of those drivers were at the Western Regionals and the only driving class I watched (on Friday morning) had a silent and respectful lineup.

I do agree that new drivers are often not told what to do but if the rest of the lineup stays "showing" until the end, the new person will usually follow suit.

Leia

 

[~Lisa~]

You know, in the big scheme of things, no, I don't remember seeing much of a difference, not like an ADS show where if the judge can't tell the difference, you won't place well at all.

Myrna

Hmm I saw some wonderful little driving horses who were great examples of the divisons they were in. I saw some that perhaps were well not so much lol but there were some who had quite a easy disticnt difference between gaits

 

[RhineStone]

Hmm I saw some wonderful little driving horses who were great examples of the divisons they were in. I saw some that perhaps were well not so much lol but there were some who had quite a easy disticnt difference between gaits

Maybe the classes you were watching weren't the same as the ones I watched.

In ADS shows, a Slow Trot is not quite a western pleasure jog, slower but still with forward momentum. A Working Trot like a Hunter working trot, forward but with an "easy" pace; "get to town, but don't 'kill' yourself". A Strong Trot is extremely forward, definite increase in pace, and it is helpful if your horse shows some extension in the leg. What I saw with most of the horses would pretty much classify itself as a Working Trot, as the Collected Trots and "Pleasure Trots" (???) that I saw were not collected enough to be that in an ADS show. In an ADS show, the gaits need to be distinctive enough that you should be able to say, "that horse is doing a ___ trot" without hearing the call.

I'm not saying that the online classes were wrong, they just were not at all like ADS classes (what I am used to) and somebody asked what I thought about them. I watched classes on Sat. and Sun.

As far as "letting down" after the judge's card is in, I teach my students to show the entire class even up to the pinning, even simply from the perspective that a sideline photographer might get a good shot of you in the lineup that would have been great if you were "sitting up". Also, more than likely you will show under that judge again, either that day, weekend, or at a different show. It leaves a very good, professional impression of you when you keep showing the entire class. We even did that at the county fair!

And like I said, ADS classes are 20 min., and we keep sitting up! Those whips must be HEAVY and the show carts must REALLY be uncomfortable that people want to slouch right away when the rail work is done!

Myrna

 

[Sue_C.]

The "big horse world" is where I was taught it is never okay to act in such a manner until the judge turns in his cards

Exactly SO!!! Like I said, we drive using EC rules, many times competing with ponies and horses in open competitions. You want to beleive they know how to show a horse...and no, that isn't only driving either. I showed for many years under saddle as well, and NO ONE EVER would even consider talking, or slouching/slacking-off while in line-up...until you get that ribbon, (or not) you are showing your horse.

 

[~Lisa~]

Myrna I do agree it is just different.

We have a ADS club here that I volunteer at often and it is very different for me to watch their driving classes.

I also watch the HUS classes here (that is my background prior to minis) and have to sort of chuckle. They have West Pleasure horses doing HUS and thinking it is so simply due to the tack change

Takes a lot of getting used to to see something totally different then what we normally watch

 

[hobbyhorse23]

What I saw with most of the horses would pretty much classify itself as a Working Trot, as the Collected Trots and "Pleasure Trots" (???) that I saw were not collected enough to be that in an ADS show. In an ADS show, the gaits need to be distinctive enough that you should be able to say, "that horse is doing a ___ trot" without hearing the call.

The trot names are not consistent between the registries and/or the different driving divisions. It drives me insane trying to keep track of them with my dressage background so I long ago had to tell myself that "collected trot" in AMHA means "the horse is trotting without being strung out" and does not in any way refer to actual collection. It is essentially a working trot and the "extended trot" should show a clear lengthening.

As for it being unprofessional to let down after the cards are turned in, well, what can I say? We're out there to have fun and socialize. I bet our show carts are more comfortable than the sticks I see shoved up so many ADS rumps!

Some of ya'll need to learn to loosen up and have a good time.

Leia

 

[Sue_C.]

As for it being unprofessional to let down after the cards are turned in, well, what can I say? We're out there to have fun and socialize

I do MY scocializing back at the barn...not in the ring.

As for leting down AFTER the cards are turned in...that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. What I saw, and am certain this is what Myrna is talking about...is the "let down" BEFORE the cards are turned in. I even saw the judge walk back and forth behind and between a few of the horses...STILL JUDGING THEM, while the "drivers" were sitting there sociallizing and having a great 'ol time...THAT showed a marked lack of respect...and were I the judge, they would know it, and be ready to show PROPERLY in the next class I saw them in.

 

[R Whiteman]

I too get a bit tired of the barrage of criticism of the breed shows. I sort of feel if the people are going to get so upset watching or dislike what they see so much maybe they should not watch and we that show in that venue are better off without them. I show in both the ADS venue and in both the AMHR and AMHA breed rings. I do feel that many people in the ADS world could be a bit less stuffy. Yes, there are things that would be better if they were changed in the breed rings. ADS has some archaic rules also. I am going to try and make those changes from within the organizations , not from a critical eye on the outside. That said , one should remember that when in Rome one should act like a Roman. Relax and enjoy. There are some months that we show at two ADS events and two breed shows. Our horses don't have any problem making the change. Why should the people ? Each venue has something to offer to those who wish to drive. Some of us may even celebrate the difference between the two. Just cause they are different doesn't make them bad.

Ron

 

[RhineStone]

The trot names are not consistent between the registries and/or the different driving divisions. It drives me insane trying to keep track of them with my dressage background so I long ago had to tell myself that "collected trot" in AMHA means "the horse is trotting without being strung out" and does not in any way refer to actual collection.

Hmm...that would be why I didn't really see any collection. But what still is a "Pleasure Trot"? Why would you drive a horse in any show that is strung out?

The first year my brother was at the State 4-H Show, the judge called for five different trots!

He pretty much had to see what the other kids were doing to determine what he should do. After that, we rewrote the rules so that the gaits were spelled out in the rulebook and the language was consistent.

It is essentially a working trot and the "extended trot" should show a clear lengthening.

I hardly saw that from any of the entries.

As for it being unprofessional to let down after the cards are turned in, well, what can I say? We're out there to have fun and socialize. I bet our show carts are more comfortable than the sticks I see shoved up so many ADS rumps!

Some of ya'll need to learn to loosen up and have a good time.

Oh...there is not much of a better time than driving a powerful horse with an awesome swinging Strong Trot sailing down the rail! One of my friends heard the husband of a fellow competitor exclaim, "Look at Alax go!" That is a good time!

We also have a good time outside the ring at the competitor parties, in our camping groups, and in the holding pen before the classes. We might carry on a small conversation in the ring, but by no means would you let down completely and be boisterous. I really doubt the judges would care for that. Besides, if you totally let down your "guard" and your horse jumps forward because it gets stung by a bee and runs over the judge or steward, they aren't going to like that. A good driver is prepared for anything.

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

As for leting down AFTER the cards are turned in...that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. What I saw, and am certain this is what Myrna is talking about...is the "let down" BEFORE the cards are turned in. I even saw the judge walk back and forth behind and between a few of the horses...STILL JUDGING THEM, while the "drivers" were sitting there sociallizing and having a great 'ol time...THAT showed a marked lack of respect...and were I the judge, they would know it, and be ready to show PROPERLY in the next class I saw them in.

This is exactly what I am referring to, and if you read my original post, it said that I was surprised that this happened, because it doesn't happen at ANY show I have ever been to, riding or driving, open, 4-H, or breed show, or ADS. I practically saw some drivers "let down" even before they got their horses stopped in line up. (Read...horse still producing forward movement and driver's hands dropped on knees chatting with neighbor, judge still standing near the front of the line, not yet inspecting anyone.) I just figured at a Regional show, that you would show to the end.

This was in both the middle of the day and end of the show classes I watched.

I really don't think it has anything to do with people having fun or not, it's just what you do in ANY show. Does this happen at the National show, too?

If it does, then so be it, but if you are expected to show to the end there, then practice makes perfect. Just an observation from an outsider horseman that might help people's presentation.

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Well-said, Ron!

I do MY scocializing back at the barn...not in the ring.

...As for leting down AFTER the cards are turned in...that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Good for you Sue, that's great. I was responding to this quote:

As far as "letting down" after the judge's card is in, I teach my students to show the entire class...

I don't believe I was misinterpreting Myrna's statement as written. I already agreed with you earlier that it is inappropriate and disrespectful to be boisterous in the lineup or in any way stop showing before the class is done but when the judges themselves start chatting after the cards go in, I don't see that it's terrible for the competitors to do the same amongst themselves.

But what still is a "Pleasure Trot"? Why would you drive a horse in any show that is strung out?

You wouldn't, of course. I think a Pleasure Trot is just the pleasant working gait, the one that makes the horse a pleasure to drive through the country. You KNOW if they just said "Trot" someone would throw a fit! So it gets labeled a "collected trot" or "Pleasure trot" or whatever to indicate it's the basic gait.

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

I too get a bit tired of the barrage of criticism of the breed shows. I sort of feel if the people are going to get so upset watching or dislike what they see so much maybe they should not watch and we that show in that venue are better off without them.

I DIDN'T SAY I WAS UPSET (although now I'm not thrilled for being accused of it....

) I wasn't criticising at all! Just pointing out some differences and surprises. I wanted to watch because I was interested in what is happening nowadays. I think you need to go back and read my original post. I had stated that there were some horses with really nice fluidity, esp. in the Classic classes I saw. I also said that I had a good time doing it, and that it was interesting! I said I was SURPRISED to see some of what I saw at a Regional show after being an exhibitor in multiple disciplines for over 20 years! If that is the way it is, SO BE IT. If is just different than MOST of the rest of the shows I have been to, other than maybe little fun shows!

I show in both the ADS venue and in both the AMHR and AMHA breed rings. I do feel that many people in the ADS world could be a bit less stuffy.

Apparently, out on either coast, you might have stuffy people from what I understand. Here in the Midwest, we have good Midwestern values along with good friendships with our fellow competitors. It's probably like that with Midwestern AMHA shows, too. I HARDLY think that showing to the end of the class is STUFFY! It's just good showmanship!!! You sure didn't see the Youth Showmanship kids drop their posture and start chatting as soon as their inspection was over...they did an AWESOME job. And I bet they still had fun and aren't labelled "stuffy"!

Yes, there are things that would be better if they were changed in the breed rings. ADS has some archaic rules also. I am going to try and make those changes from within the organizations , not from a critical eye on the outside.

I don't care what you all do at your breed shows. Have at it. I was just making some observations. Maybe someone might get an idea from my observations that, "Hmm...I might do better in the class if I don't put my hands on my knees as soon as I get my horse stopped." Like was said before by someone else, maybe they don't know any better!

That said , one should remember that when in Rome one should act like a Roman. Relax and enjoy. There are some months that we show at two ADS events and two breed shows. Our horses don't have any problem making the change. Why should the people ? Each venue has something to offer to those who wish to drive. Some of us may even celebrate the difference between the two.

Yes, you need to "fit in" in whatever venue you are showing, but personally I think that some of those horses would do better in front of the judges if they had more distinctive gaits. Some of the AMHA judges are also licensed ADS judges. I looked at the list! ADS judges are expecting to see clear definition, and if I were to show at any show, that is what I would do to show my horse to the best of it's ability. I think that some of those exhibitors are selling their horses short. What is the point of having different trots if they don't look different?

And I didn't even mention distinctive gaits initially. It was a question asked of me!

 

Just cause they are different doesn't make them bad.

I didn't say they were! I was showing the difference between the shows and looking for some explanations why that is! Nobody has STILL explained what a PLEASURE TROT is! Or if there is a reason that more competitors didn't circle back and find their own spot on the rail. Is that a No-No or are the competitors just inexperienced like was mentioned by someone else before?

 

 

Ron

Thanks Ron, fellow ADS member, for making my day. I think I'll go outside and work horses now in this heat. It would be better than taking this undeserved heat!

 

Myrna

 

[Kendra]

Some of the AMHA judges are also licensed ADS judges. I looked at the list!

Whoa, really?? I'm off to check that out and make a list for next years shows!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Nobody has STILL explained what a PLEASURE TROT is! Or if there is a reason that more competitors didn't circle back and find their own spot on the rail. Is that a No-No or are the competitors just inexperienced like was mentioned by someone else before?

Speaking of reading carefully...

I addressed the Pleasure trot issue in my last post. I may not be RIGHT, but I did try!

As for circling back, the rules state you are to show on the rail so circling into the center or cutting across the arena is considered a form of grand-standing and is a no-no. It's bad to be off the rail because you can't find a spot but it's worse to go further off the rail in order to get to one. Or at least that's what the rationale seems like to me! I refuse to sabotage my own horse by pulling him up to fit behind another rig so if I can't pass and can't get a spot without cutting near a judge I will just stay there and create a space when they call for a transition. I do a lot of bending and going deep in my corners in order to not run over the horse in front of me if I'm already on the rail.

I do apologize for my part in making this thread become a little heated but like Ron I get tired of the unconsciously supercilious attitude that comes across in some of these posts. Myrna's original post was just fine and I have no problem with it! But since then there's been a lot of "I would never do that" and implications from several folks that "If you don't show all the way out the gate you're unprofessional, ignorant and lazy; OUR shows would not reward horses without clear gait distinctions; etc." and it gets irritating.

If we misinterpret something, say so!

All we can do is read what is written and assume an individual meant what they said, as in the case of showing all the way out of the gate.

At all the AMHA/R shows I've attended it is normal for exhibitors to continue showing at least until the cards are in. That is when the class is "done." I 100% agree that it is a no-no to stop showing before then at the very least, and that it is never a good idea to throw away your reins and whip as you would then have no control if the horse spooked or the one next to you blew up. If people did that at Regionals they were in the wrong and we all agree on that. A horse with good gait distinction and a nice fluid way of moving should place over one who does not. We all agree on that. If the judges did not reward that then they are in the wrong. It doesn't mean the shows aren't as good or as professional as another type of show however, only that there's a problem with that individual's training.

Leia