Undershot Jaw & Twisted front teeth..

[Calekio]

i bred this little boy so obviously after the decision to see how he coped as dealing with a reasonably bad undershot jaw i would obviously keep him. (mum is retired from breeding.. he was her last foal, dad was gelded the year he was born.. and he is a gelding.. so i do hope i've acted like the responsible breeder there)

Locket is now 3yr old, certainly not stunted growth at around 34-35" (mum was 34", dad 33") and he is very stocky as well.

So we were doing really well until he started teething... then problems struck.. due to the way he grazes he had angled his baby teeth so as his adult teeth started to grow in, they didn't disolve/eat away the baby tooth root (i will now confuse myself with the correct terms! lol) and didn't push the baby teeth out and instead tried to go around the baby teeth and ended up coming in facing horizontally, instead of virtically! Vets/specialist edt involved who x-ray'd his jaw to check he was removing the right teeth and what was going on.. removed two baby teeth and hoped adult teeth would now straight.. one did but one grew in twisted at a funny angle. Last week i noticed another adult tooth coming in, facing horizontally again so vet coming out this week who will remove baby tooth and possiblity of wiring the adult tooth to another tooth to try and get it to come in straight.. although still not sure if they will do that, she was going to discuss that option with another vet/teeth specialist.

So.. on the high chance this adult tooth might come in twisted as well.. he's going to not over have a undershot jaw but 2 twisted front teeth on the bottom jaw... his corner teeth on the bottom are totally worn away where the top teeth sit on them as well.. these are still baby teeth but they have said very high chance he'll do the same to the adult teeth.

I do worry about him and how he'll cope as time goes on... he is a blessing to me (a friend lost her disabled little girl to a accident and locket was born on the morning of her funeral, so was name in her memory as he is special as well).

So far he's doing ok.. he struggles a little with his weight towards winter but we just keep a close eye and adjust his feed as needed. He is given extra grass and hay and get a feed called fast fibre which you soak into a mash which he loves and it works well to fill him up. He see's vet/teeth specialist on a regular basis so we make sure his teeth are rasped as often as they need it.

Got some photos

At about 1 month old - Vet did try plating his bottom teeth so to lift the top teeth so they could slid and see if top jaw would grow down to meet.. didn't work.. but it was worth a try!

These were taken about May of this year.

And these ones was taken last week to send to my vet - Noticed the adult tooth starting to come through..

Has anyone any experience or advice??

 

[chandab]

Sorry, never seen anything like. Sounds like you are on top of things and doing all you can for him. Sounds like the fast fiber works pretty good for him, and he might just have to be on it most the year to help him hold weight.

 

[Tab]

Have you had an equine dentist look at him? Vets are great but sometimes they don't really know teeth. It's almost an art form. Have the vets checked his molars? I'm guessing yes, but they may be working blind. If he has hooks, ramps, and retained caps, those anomalies could very well could be pulling his jaw completely out of place. Maybe you could benefit from a second (or even 3rd) opinion.

 

[Kimster]

I agree i would talk with an equine dentist - Good luck

 

[Calekio]

I'm quite lucky as my vet is also a highly trained equine dentist (the practice has 2 vets who are fully quilified equine dentists so i get the pick of 2) and he has looked after locket since he was born (he sort of used him as a guinea-pig when he was a foal to plate his bottom jaw with the idea the top teeth could slide forward and not get stuck behind the bottom teeth if that makes sence... he went over to america to learn this from a specialist and it was the first time this had been tried in the UK)

He had his teeth rasped about a month ago although that was by a vet as he was having problems so needed doing asap.. but i will be asking the vet/equine dentist who is coming out on thursday just to check his back teeth as well, make sure all over there.

He is a little star pony and we use him as one of our therapy ponies, he is very well suited to working with disabled adults and children and has such a gentle nature, just like his dad who i still own and now works as a therapy pony and is ridden on and off lead rein, i hope locket will be able to be ridden when older as well.

This is my little boy, taken last year but i adore this photo..

 

[Miniequine]

I would also recommend an equine dentist, one that specializes in miniatures.

Maybe contact Carl Mitz... He may be able to refer somebody were you live.

 

[Riverrose28]

I applaude you for being so brave as to post this. For us breeders this is just too embaressing when it happens. After breeding for many years I had a filly born to a mare that has produced Champions when bred to my Champion stallion, but back in 2007 I bred her to a small stallion that had been shown and has a good bite and pedigree, it didn't turn out well. She delivered a tiny perfect, at the time, filly. This filly was shown as a weanling and did very well, even was part of produce of dam and was Reserv Champion. She was high point conformation out of 7 classes at our local 4-H shows and I was so pround of her, she was only 25"'s tall as a yearling. Sometime during her second year I noticed an odor from her mouth, this was before show season, I noticed her bottom teeth had that black gook like your guy, only bite was only slightly of, like she was starting to get like your guy with a sow mouth. Bet came and pulled a tooth on the top that looked like she got kicked there, and two on the bottom that looked like they were coming in sidways. Told me to flush the mouth twice a day with warm salt water to keep the gook out. She came out in around two months and floated. The next time she had a dental the teeth looked awful, but she hadn't finished shedding all the baby teeth and hadn't finished getting the adult teeth. Although her bite as improved it is still a sow mouth and somtimes food gets caught inbetween the teeth that needs to be flushed out. She can not be bred or shown, only a pet. It just happens like this some times, big horse teeth in a little horse mouth. She is now 29"s and I'm no longer breeding for the little ones.

 

[Calekio]

Who is Carl Mitz? Not a name i've heard of (but obviously not in the same country! lol) i've done a quick google.. trying to find a email address...

I'm not ashamed of locket, i mean don't get me wrong i'm not proud to have produced a foal with a deformaty but i feel i've done right by him as his breeder, it was the first and only time i'd ever crossed the mare & stallion, all foals previously from each of them to different mares/stallions had been perfect, they both had good breeding and both correct spot on bites, it just sheer chance to get him i suppose and because i feel i acted correctly in preventing mare/stallion from producing/passing on this gene (from my understanding as vet tried to explain to me, both parents would need to be a carrier of the gene that caused the undershot jaw and both pass it to the foal for him to come out like he did.. someone correct me if i'm wrong! lol)

He has had to get use to having his mouth poked and prodded.. i use a toothbrush and a certain mouthwash vet advised and clean around his teeth few times a week so hopefully prevent anything like infection. And having my friends 13hh mare in my field as well works well as they share a paddock over night so both can get more grass.. gives them both company as none of the other minis need the extra grass! lol

 

[Riverrose28]

Oh no, the last thing I wanted to do with my post was upset you, I thought you were lokking for other breeders that have had this happen to them, and I wanted you to know you are not alone in this. It just crops up from time to time, and yes you have done the responsable thing by having him gelded, as I have said my little mare will only be a pet. They all deserve to be loved and cherished, and this little ones have the best temperment and are so loving. Enough of my dribble. As a breeder you can't see this coming, it just happens, and my little girl gets along just fine with eating. In fact she is fat like a beach ball. I did learn a lesson though, that trying to scale down was not for me. I'll stick with my larger guys, as I have less problems. There are those out there though that are breeding the little ones and doing a great job of it.

 

[AnnaC]

A very interesting post and thank you for the pictures.

Sometimes if the jaw is 'off' at birth, the back top molars as they develop (even as baby teeth) can get hooked behind the front lower ones as they grow down. This can make the situation worse as they sort of 'prevent' the top jaw (front of the horse's head) from devloping properly whereas the bottom jaw is free to move forward/develop normally as the young horse grows. (not sure if I'm explaining this very well LOL!!)

Not saying your little fella would ever have a straight mouth, but sometimes an even growth can be prevented by those top molars staying hooked up behind the lower ones. Get your vet/dentist to check his back teeth and if there is a 'hook up' going on then a good rasp or even the removal of those last two upper baby teeth, might just let his top jaw grow forward just a little to help him out. I have a neighbour who had this happen to a pony youngster, not too sure what they did about the back teeth, but the 'gap' between the pony's top and bottom jaw certainly lessened somewhat.

You are doing a great job with your boy, and he is obviously a very happy sweet little chap.

 

[Calekio]

Oh no Riverrose28, you didn't upset me

Its nice to hear of others that have those foals that just didn't quite come out right but still decided they deserved a chance at life, i was told by a few people to just have him put to sleep at birth because i would never be able to sell him and he'd be expensive etc and a 'black mark against me as a breeder'... after a long talk with the dental specialist about what future he'd have, would he be able to graze etc we decide to just do what we could for him... when he starts to struggle too much and his quility of life is effect then i'll have him put to sleep.. but at the moment he is doing well.. and first real problem we've had is now, as he changes his teeth which i always thought we may have issues there (would have amazed me if we got through teething, problem free! lol)

I was told though when he was a baby the undershot jaw (sow mouth) is a lot less common than a over shot jaw (parrot mouth)? And apparently they can cope better with the parrot mouth.. i had one, a rescue gelding who had slight parrot mouth but as he grew up it disappeared.

I don't breed anymore.. not because of him but because i was finding it so hard to say goodbye to my babies and know they were in good homes, so few years ago i put all my girls under saddle and my stallions gelded and under saddle. My best ridden ponies are my ex stallions! lol The girl are great but have that attitude' to them.. the boy though will go to the ends of the earth to please the kids and are just so safe! Badger, this boy's dad as a stallion he was good.. as a gelding.. even dispite having sweet itch (another reason he got gelded.. when he developed sweet itch) is worth his weight is gold and i've had so many offers on him of people wanting to buy him! lol

Yup i understood that AnnaC... just! lol They check his teeth every couple of months and rasped when needed, he is done more often than my other minis and they always pay partical attention to the very back teeth and very front teeth (that make sense! lol). Interesting you say about if rasped correctly it could become less severe (think that is what you were saying) i think if you look at the photos his biggest problem in his top jaw not coming forward will be that is top teeth are 'stuck' behind his bottom teeth, if you look at one of the side on photos i think it shows this (but not something i've ever thought about)

He also had a few growing up problems with his digestion.. had a lot of digestive upset as a yearling & two year old and i often wonder if perhaps he can't grind his food quite as well as he should and that would have account for that... again he seems to have out grown that and havent' really had a single problem there this year, maybe cause either his body has learned a way to cope or he's learn another way to grind the food properly or.... don't know.. he baffled the vets there when as a yearling he couldn't have hay as it caused him huge digestive upset.. but he was fine on haylage... lol

 

[AnnaC]

Again, thank you for sharing this with us, it is a real learning curve to see problems, their possible treatment and the eventual/on going outome.

Please let us know how things progress after the next visit from your vet.

Good luck!

 

[Calekio]

I will, and i'll show you photos too, vet/dentist is out tomorrow and after speaking to senior vet/dentist they aren't going to wire the tooth as don't think it will work, so removing baby tooth and then hopefully the adult tooth will start to come in straight when its got the room too.

 

[Eagle]

Best of luck for tomorrow. I too would like to Thank you for sharing this with us, he is a lucky boy to have someone so caring and thorough.

 

[Calekio]

Well the baby tooth is out. And it wasn't a easy job! He was sedated and then local injected around the tooth but it was well and truely still in so vet really had to dig it out.. we couldn't leave it in but i felt so sorry for my poor boy, it was the root that was the real problem (still have a good, solid root measuing about 1.5"!!) and due to the forced that had to be used to remove it he's had to have a few stitches in his gums, they are disolvables so won't need removing but hopefully it will allow the area to heal before he wears that stitches out! And the amount of local she needed to use! She was very good at making sure she wasn't hurting him, the moment he started to flinch she put more local in.

No pictures right now.. by time it was finished he was waking up from sedation and in no mood for me to poke and prod his mouth.. will get tonight as i have to keep the area clean so need to bring him in and fiddle anyway.

But due to the stitches.. he is now on longer grass to prevent him rubbing the stitches out or getting dirt into the wound... i'm sure he won't mind that part! lol

 

[Calekio]

Well picture as promised.. he's a bit unhappy me poking and prodding understandable and trying to take a photo and hold his lips up one handled was not easy! lol I'm amazed the picture came out quite well! He has tucked into some nice long grass and finished dinner, left him snoozing off a very full belly! lol He was very good today bless him... That now only leaves 3 more baby teeth on his bottom jaw... from when vet did xrays beginnig of the year, hopefully they won't cause problems.. i vaguely remember today him saying last time that this adult tooth just coming through now wasn't in line with the baby tooth it should push out so would most likely need removing.. i forgot today but tomorrow i'll take a photo of the baby tooth and you can see the monsterous looking root on it!! Its like something out of a horror story! lol