Training ?

[maggiemae]

I've been ground driving my miniature mare for a couple of weeks now. She was doing fine at first in the round pen, but then I started ground driving down the road at the barn and for the last couple of days she has started spinning around to face me when I say whoa, and pull back gently on both lines. She is still in a halter with two lines attached with me walking behind her and gently pulling left , right or on both to stop. While lunging she knows whoa, trot, canter, walk and in the round pen with me behind her she does these - but for some reason when we go outside she starts side stepping and then she starts spinning around to face me. How do I correct this? She also keeps putting her head down to graze and I can't seem to keep her from grazing long enough to drive her for very long. Help?

PS I have paid for two different trainers to train her over the last two months- one of them took my money and then just didn't show up - one took my money, showed up for a couple of sessions, then disappeared - I can't afford to pay another one right now. So, I guess I'm on my own.

 

[disneyhorse]

Hmmmm... with trainers (particularly ones coming here) I pay right after the lesson. That way if they don't show up, no big deal for either of us.

Proper equipment will help you with some of the issues you are having. I pretty much never start my horses with the lead-ropes-on-the-halter method. I really don't see any point... as long as the horse stays relaxed about the lesson and has been introduced to the bit (just wearing it during lunging or grooming sessions until they stop chewing on it and are quiet in the mouth) then you won't "ruin" their mouth or anything.

An overcheck, loosely hooked, will prevent your horse from being able to graze if you are training in a grassy area (we only have dirt here, but they still wear a loose overcheck when training). Once they figure out they can't reach the grass, their brains will also become more focused on you and not on eating.

Spinning around to look at you... well this is pretty common with green horses as they are confused and don't understand yet. This is where having a whip to cue (gently) and/or an assistant to keep them pulled around will be helpful... make sure you are sending the horse forward. This takes finesse and timing.

Blinders can also help here, since the horse won't be able to see you at all times. However they can and do still spin around in blinders.

Long lining, with the outside line draped around their rump, will also help with the spinners, as you can use the outside line to balance them out and keep them straight.

Good luck,

Andrea

 

[Shortpig]

That really stinks your trainers took your money and didn't follow thru. Makes me way more thankful for the trainer I chose for Duckie. She is truly awesome and I would recommend Dorothy to anyone.

I'm sure the people here will help you in anyway they can. Think how great you will feel having trained your own driving horse. I trained both my black mares to drive but just don't have the time or the energy to start another one. Or the proper area. I wish you the best in your endeavor.

Marie

 

[maggiemae]

Okay - Thank you very much. I do have a harness with blinders and an overcheck. I just haven't been using this equipment because I didn't want to hurt her mouth and becasue of my inexperience I didn't wanted to cause more harm than good. But I believe you're right - blinders would help along with asking my daughter (she is helping me train) to walk alongside her and keep her straight. When I first started driving her out of the round pen she did okay, but maybe it was because in the pen - my daughter had been walking beside her but a few feet from her. When we took her out of the pen things went downhill after a few days. I think I'll go ahead and put her headstall with bit and blinders on - (back in the round pen) - and let my daughter go back to walking beside her for a few days and see how she does. I think I'll hold off on the checks until she is wearing the bit and bridle in the round pen comfortably and then take her back out on grassy area with check on. The keeping her moving forward - I think there is a skill involved that I haven't mastered yet. My timing is off a little. I can feel it happening right sometimes - but I don't control it very well. She doesn't spin when I ask her to walk on - she does go forward easily when asked - she just starts spinning when asked to stop or asked to turn too tightly. This is a horse that sticks to me like glue. She just likes to be watching and getting into whatever I'm doing. So just getting her to walk out in front of me has been a great accomplishment. So... sounds like I may have just rushed her a bit (taking away the support of my daughter walking beside her), and I need to move her on in other ways (putting bit and bridle on)

 

[maggiemae]

I've been reading your posts about Duckie and I've been a bit envious. It definitely isn't my first choice to train my own horse. Becasue of my inexperience, I don't want to be the one to train her, but I feel like I'm running out of other options. So, I keep putting out feelers for another trainer and saving my money and in the meantime I keep pecking away at what I think is the next best step. We have come a long way like this. Further than I thought I would. The woman I bought her from has been very helpful in guiding me.

 

[Katiean]

Maybe a training surcingle would help with the turning around and facing you. When you are just starting out run your reins through the lower rings. This will put your reins along side his rump. If he starts to spin you just tighten the opposite rein using his rump for leverage to pull him back straight. You will be able to bring the reins up through the proper rings in just a couple of sessions. Also instead of having a person walk along side him at his halter when you are ground driving (he may think he is just being lead) to hold his line straiter (so he isn't walking like a drunk) hold your reins out a bit wider so he is more balanced. If you do not want to start your horse in a closed bridle (one with blinders) pick up a cheap pony bridle or sometimes you can find a mini bridle meant for a riding saddle and use it while getting your horse used to the whole harness idea. I hope this helps.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

A loose sidecheck will work just as well as an overcheck to prevent grazing and will not interfer with the way she carries herself as an overcheck can.

You will be able to bring the reins up through the proper rings in just a couple of sessions.

There is nothing wrong with using the lower rings for quite awhile. They ARE the "proper rings" for many types of work!

Maggie, it sounds like you've been doing great and have a good handle on both why she's doing this and what you've been doing wrong. Keep going!

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

I can't recommend enough for you to get the videos, "Teach Your Horse to Drive" by Mary Ruth Marks, esp. since you are having trainer issues.

Yes, for long lining and ground driving, using the tugs on the harness saddle help to keep the back end of the horse "aligned". We don't use the rein terrets until the horse is almost ready to be put to. The trick is to keep the reins "snug" enough that you don't have the mini step over them, since their bodies are so close to the ground.

Myrna

 

[Echo Jubilee]

Hmmmm... with trainers (particularly ones coming here) I pay right after the lesson. That way if they don't show up, no big deal for either of us.

Proper equipment will help you with some of the issues you are having. I pretty much never start my horses with the lead-ropes-on-the-halter method. I really don't see any point... as long as the horse stays relaxed about the lesson and has been introduced to the bit (just wearing it during lunging or grooming sessions until they stop chewing on it and are quiet in the mouth) then you won't "ruin" their mouth or anything.

An overcheck, loosely hooked, will prevent your horse from being able to graze if you are training in a grassy area (we only have dirt here, but they still wear a loose overcheck when training). Once they figure out they can't reach the grass, their brains will also become more focused on you and not on eating.

Spinning around to look at you... well this is pretty common with green horses as they are confused and don't understand yet. This is where having a whip to cue (gently) and/or an assistant to keep them pulled around will be helpful... make sure you are sending the horse forward. This takes finesse and timing.

Blinders can also help here, since the horse won't be able to see you at all times. However they can and do still spin around in blinders.

Long lining, with the outside line draped around their rump, will also help with the spinners, as you can use the outside line to balance them out and keep them straight.

Good luck,

Andrea

Thanks so much for posting this info. I also have been experiencing the same situation ....Echo Jubilee

 

[maggiemae]

Thank you for all the replies. I have an open bridle - I tried using the bridle with blinders yesterday and she pitched a fit. I kept trying to get her to walk forward and she just kept getting more and more tense until she started spinning and then she actually reared up (I couldn't release the pressure on the bit)so ... I put her back in her halter and lunged her in the round pen. She did okay - she just didn't want to whoa - by then she was upset.

A while back I tried to get the DVDs by Mary Ruth Marks - but I couldn't find them. Do you know where I can order them - Giddyupflicks doesn't have them.

If I but the bridle on with the bit and I put the reins through the tugs and hold (support) her on both sides with the reins down along her rump to help keep her aligned - will that not put a lot of pressure on her mouth with the bit on? If she starts spinning with the reins through the tugs and it starts pulling hard on her mouth do I release the reins until she stops spinning?

My harness headstall has blinders - she isn't ready for that - so if I use my open bridle it doesn't have an attachment for a sidecheck - its just a leather mini riding bridle. Is there a way to use an open bridle and use maybe two pieces of twine to tie her bridle to the surcingle just tight enough so that she can't reach the grass? Or, I could leave her halter on under the bridle and attach two strings from it to the surcingle.

 

[Katiean]

You could use loose side reins to keep her from eating the grass. You do not need a check rein at this point. If she spins and you have the reins along side her rump put pressure on the side to correct the spin. Keep up the verbal commands. As she spins pull the opposite way following her spin saying "Whoa" Always use a calm voice. She won't spin long. It sounds like it is harder on you to do the discipline rather than her getting corrected. You can not let her think she "WINS" in any situation. Minis are very smart and if they can bully you into putting them up by spinning in circles they will. You won't be pulling long enough to "HARDEN" her mouth. My mares were all started in this manor and they have some of the softest mouths I have ever driven. I do use totally verbal commands with my driving mares. I have to carry the whip in a driving class and I carry one on the road to stop dogs. But, my girls commands are walk on, easy trot, trot on (working trot), whoa and back. I also talk to my horses all the time. Maybe a thing held over from my riding days. You are doing fine and you won't hurt her with a bit as long as you are not jerking on it.

 

[RhineStone]

You can get the Mary Ruth Marks DVD from ADS at:

https://www.netforumondemand.com/eWeb/Shopp...es&Site=ADS

or most any other carriage supply. Both Driving Essentials and Iowa Valley Carriage has it. Watching the DVD will help you understand what to do A LOT!

As far as putting the head down, I'm going to copy a post that I already wrote a while ago:

"Your horse is making decisions he should not get to make. It is not acceptable behavior. You need to be the "parent" and not rely on some contraption to keep the horse's head up. The biggest mistake that I see horse owners do is allow their horses to graze while in hand. When we have a halter and lead on our horses, it is all business. There is no grazing or smelling the ground. If the horse is allowed to graze on a lead or a longe line, how can they tell the difference between that and a driving harness?

With very persistent horses, I will actually "pop" them in the nose with my foot when they put their head down, and yank on the lead both with a strong "HEAD UP" command. It doesn't take smart ones very long to figure out that when they put their head down that far, that it "stings" a little. You are NOT going to hurt your horse!!!! (Watch a mare correct a foal, she is NOT asking nicely!) Horses don't respect a simple voice command if it doesn't accompany a physical command, at least at first. What do they have to "lose" with just a voice command? It means nothing. Just like a child in church, they need to learn self-control. Going back to the halter/lead will help them figure that out."

Of course, this post led to all sorts of discussions about grazing in hand, but my point is that they need to learn that when it is work time, snacking is not allowed. It is easiest to teach this in the halter and lead with them by your side with a voice command. Then transfer the voice command to the line driving. Also, ditch the line driving behind the horse. You don't have enough way to keep them moving forward. Go to longeing and long lining first.

See this thread for more info on long lining. http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=115656

Hope this helps,

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

(I had to repost as a couldn't "see" the whole topic when I replied last.)

What kind of bit do you have that you are concerned about hurting the mare's mouth. How old is the mare?

You really skipped the long lining step and need to go back. (See that link to the other discussion on the previous post.) Once your horse knows how to longe, long lining is the next logical step. It is somewhat "longeing" with a bit. Then start to make the transition to following behind them. She doesn't understand what you want, and is therefore spinning to "find" you. She doesn't get yet that she needs to be the leader. If you long line, then she will understand that you are "pushing" her forward. She will also learn left and right and whoa much more easily.

Mary Ruth will help a lot. She shows you how to do it and why.

Myrna

 

[maggiemae]

The bit that I'm using is copper and it's a solid bar that's curved. I think it was called a Half cheeck mullen mouth bit. I first tried a half cheek french link, but she kept chewing on it and shaking her head. I kept letting her wear it for a while thinking the whole bit in the mouth thing was just new - but finally I switched her to a solid copper bar that curves and she quieted down in the mouth with it. She is three years old. I'm not sure I understand the difference between longing and longlining- I started out in the center of the circle with a halter and lunging line and taught her walk on, trot, canter, and whoa and then we worked on transitons up and down until she got really good with it. Then I put two long lead lines on each side of her halter and walked off to the side with my daughter leading her forward with a lead line attached. Then my daughter took the lead line off and stepped back several steps and I started walking behind her. Then I took her out of the round pen to drive her down the drive way. This process has taken about three months. (She had pneumonia for about two weeks) She has only had the bit in her mouth with the lead line attached to her halter. But she has been wearing it for several weeks.

I will get those videos.

 

[maggiemae]

I went back and read the post that you included in your reply and it explained a lot to me. So... If I understand correctly - you stand in the middle of the circle with halter and long line and teach them forward commands, then you put bridle and bit on and attach to long lines and you stand in the circle and teach them to move forward, then you move to their flank area doing the same thing with the same equipment, then you walk behind them and let them drag weight then you hook them. Is that the proper progression? So, by not attaching the reins or long line to her bit I have skipped the middle step. Thank you - I'll go back to that step this evening.

 

[Katiean]

If you are going to show at all you can not use that bit. I do not think I would use a bit like that to drive ever. It is just too sever. Try just a plain half check snaffle bit. Make sure it fits. There was a mare I was training and we were having a really hard time with her chewing the bit. Finally it dawned on me, I looked in her mouth and the bit was laying in a "V" shape on her tongue. The bit was too big. I got a smaller bit and problem solved. The horse may chew the bit for a while but they will quit. I would not pull a horse around hard with a solid bit. I would also before you have her pull any weight get a couple of poles for her to drag as you ground drive. I use 1" PVC about 7 feet long. Do turns and let the poles touch her. That way if she bangs into the shaft of the cart she won't have a fit. Always make sure your poles can come off easily just in case she gets scared. You don't want her tangleing with poles you can't get loose. I wrapped mine in the proper spot for the horse to simulate shafts with tape so they do not slip and if I have to I can just jerk them out.

 

[RhineStone]

Yes, you can show in a half cheek mullen snaffle, and no, depending on the conformation of the horse's mouth, it is not a severe bit. A jointed bit in the wrong hands can be more severe. I start all my horses on a mullen mouth snaffle, and then move to something else if they need it. I think you were right to take the French Link out, there was probably too many moving parts for your mare. Although, if I have to use a jointed bit, I generally move to a French Link before a single jointed which can nutcracker too much in my opinion. To understand how a bit works in the horse's mouth, take your shoe off and put the bit underneath your foot. Then pull back on the reins. I think it can be pretty easy to see which ones are more comfortable.

Snaffle doesn't mean "jointed bit". It means that the bit is a direct action bit, the reins are attached to rings which are directly from the corners of the horse's mouth. A curb or any other leverage bit means that it has shanks, that the reins are attached to rings on the ends of metal shanks that hang down from the mouthpiece. Leverage bits cannot be used in AMHR shows (which is a crock, considering that the conformation of some horse's mouths really don't lend themselves well to a direct action bit). AMHA and ADS shows can use leverage bits, as well as unjointed "bar" snaffles.

I think you are on the right track for understanding long lining. Yup, you just skipped a step! It should go better for you now.

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Leverage bits cannot be used in AMHR shows (which is a crock, considering that the conformation of some horse's mouths really don't lend themselves well to a direct action bit).

Since checks are mandatory and most people use martingales, I still say it's a good thing that leverage bits are controlled. It would be better if there were specific language about which settings could be used instead of banning the bits entirely, but without education it's all too possible to see some poor horse get a broken jaw from being tightly checked up then cranked down and on the last slot of a Liverpool to "control" the horse who is only wild in the first place from the pain. No thank you!

Leia

 

[disneyhorse]

Here is a video of a horse being long lined. I will look around quickly to see if I can find another example because... you don't always have to have that outside line coming over the back. You can drape it around the horses' rumps. That also helps keep the surcingle from spinning. Also, make sure you always have a crupper on your surcingle when long lining!

Note that the person just stands in the middle, and although it is like lunging, the commands begin to come from the bit, not just a line attached to the horses' halters.

Andrea

 

[disneyhorse]

Video of long lining

Oh here's one with the line dropped behind the horse...

Andrea