Training for driving.

[Soggy Bottom Ranch]

Spot is 2 1/2 years old now, and I've slowly been working with him on some ground work in preperation for cart training next spring. We've been taking our time, doing some easy free lunging, and some getting him used to wearing a harness. Easy stuff, and mostly just to get him used to his word commands, and desensitizing him to things, etc. He's been doing very well, though the last few times he's been kind of defient, which made me think he was maybe a bit bored, and wanted something new and more challanging. I was actually happy to see this because I was wondering maybe if he wasn't ready mentally for any of this, he was both defient, and really lazy!

So I challenged him to something new! I put on his harness saddle, ran the reins up to his halter, and asked him to walk. I got a couple turns out of him, and that's all it took, away we went right out of the barn as if he'd been doing this his whole life! I did some easy circles with him, and then off we went, doing a lap around our yard. I asked him to whoa several times, making him stand for a few moments, and he did everything I asked him to do, walking in a nice straight line without any weaving side to side! I even drove him down to the road to get the mail, walked him beyond the mail box, asked him to whoa, and took a few minutes to glance through the mail while he stood waiting for me. He loved it! He walked forward at a nice steady pace, head up, ears forward, and just enjoyed himself! I have to say, when you have a young one you've raised up from a foal, this is soooo rewarding to see, even though it's just really only a small step in the process!

My question is this. When I work with him, I'm always talking to him. If I ask him to walk for example, I catch myself saying......walk, walk, walk........constantly to him. It just comes out that way. So, would it be better to ask him to walk, remain quiet, and if he steps out of line, reinforce the word walk then? Or is it ok to continually reinforce the commands by saying them repetitively?

Thank you!

 

[Jill]

I don't think you need to (don't think you probably should) repeatedly say the same command if he is doing what you asked. But, I had to smile... I remember when I was really just learning to ride on my horse, Sky. I would do the same thing "walk, walk, walk, walk, walk...". Non stop just about!!! I was scared if he tried to trot even walk faster. I was just a mess... Thank goodness, I did eventually get with someone who taught me how to really ride

Another thing, about ground driving him, I know we see a lot of minis being ground driven with lines on halters, vs. with a bit and bridle. I think that is a mistake... Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone, but I don't know of any other breed where a trainer / owner would start a riding or driving horse without first bitting the horse. I think it's pretty important and feel that some of the examples we see can actually be risky to follow.

What I've done and have had done to my driving horses is to get them used to a bit by letting them wear it in a stall or some place where they cannot possible catch it on anything. I've had them wear it for longer periods of time and lunged them in it, etc., and then start asking them to "listen" to it.

Good luck! I think your guy's going to be one flashy driving horse with all those spots

One day, I would like to have a leopard to drive, too

 

[Soggy Bottom Ranch]

Thanks Jill, and no offense taken to the advise at all. Spot has actually had the bit in a few times, and handles it well. He's also used to his harness headstall. I just didn't know if driving him with the bit at a young age was to much, but I can see now what you are saying.

 

[Jill]

I follow what you're saying. I'm thinking he's not too young for it... I like to use an open head stall, which I just thought of when you mentioned the harness one (blinders). Maybe that's why people are using halters (but bits are important)? I got a mini bridle (so cute, and decent / quality leather) for less than $20

That way the horse can see everything while you're working with him

 

[whitney]

GOOD QUESTION.

I had to think about it but I do the same thing however if they are already doing it I follow the walk with a GOOOOOOD so they know they are doing the right thing.

i.e. walk, good walk I thought it reinforced the command?

I wonder now if it would be better to just say GOOOOD and not the command again.

Interested to hear others take on this.

 

[Jill]

Thinking more on it... I wonder too if you keep talking (regardless of the words) if the horse will kind of tune you out eventually? And not register a change of verbal commands as quickly if you are saying one thing repeatedly and then say a new word? I think that's how it would be, but don't know for sure.

Still thinking of me on Sky's back, chanting "walk walk walk walk", eyes planted right at the ground, toes probably pointing there, too

 

[barnbum]

Geri--we're in the same place with our boys. When Ashely got Jazz started we were in the pasture and she stopped him as he was learning and praised him--whatever she did it worked! I took him down the lane and out into a back straw field the farmners just cut and I didn't awnt to stop him too often since he was moving along so beautifully, so I said "Good boy, Jazz! Good boy!" using the same happy tone I'd use whenever I'd praise him. I only said "Walk" when he was standing, or eating, and it was time to walk on.

That's what I do, but I have no idea what's correct.

 

[Soggy Bottom Ranch]

LOL, I don't know why I do it, the words just seem to keep coming out habitually.

I have no fear of anything, though I wonder if maybe I'm concentrating to much. I guess not only is Spot in training........but me as well!

Thank you for the great advise thus far!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Geri, good job!! That's great that Spot's doing so well.

My question is this. When I work with him, I'm always talking to him. If I ask him to walk for example, I catch myself saying......walk, walk, walk........constantly to him. It just comes out that way. So, would it be better to ask him to walk, remain quiet, and if he steps out of line, reinforce the word walk then? Or is it ok to continually reinforce the commands by saying them repetitively?
Thank you!

Jill's got it exactly right- they learn to tune you out! I talk to my horse constantly in training (I'm a chatterbox and everyone knows it

) but any actual command is always prefaced with his name to catch his attention. For instance it might be "Good boy Kody, that's right, good walk, keep it up, GET UP THERE- you know better! Walk up. Kody, T-Rot. Good!" His ears are always flicking around listening to me but the moment I say his name they radar back to me and his whole body collects so he's ready to do whatever it is I'm about to ask for.

Out on the trail I'm a bit quieter as there's more to see but in the arena it's all about the horse and the quality of his gait. Since I can't use my legs and seat to communicate, I use my voice correspondingly more to reassure him and give him the tenor of our work. By the time I enter a real class or dressage test I should have already trained him to what I expect so I only use my voice there to correct him or ask for a transition. He knows he'll get praised at the end.

I was startled when I volunteered at the Lexington Classic CDE last October to hear many of the upper level drivers on the marathon walk section constantly chirping "Walk, walk, walk, walk" to their horses as it went against everything I've read and been taught. It was funny to see the results! Several horses had clearly tuned out their annoying, ineffectual drivers and their timid "Walk? Walk? Walk?" requests. Others were marching along marking time to the metronome beat of "WALK. WALK. WALK" and clearly taking their rhythm from it as intended. (You've really got to walk out to make the Advanced level walk times.) And still others were taking it to heart as a command to move on and each time it was said they would put out a fresh spurt of effort or overstride just that much further. I guess it really depends on the driver and the training!

Another thing, about ground driving him, I know we see a lot of minis being ground driven with lines on halters, vs. with a bit and bridle. I think that is a mistake... Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone, but I don't know of any other breed where a trainer / owner would start a riding or driving horse without first bitting the horse. I think it's pretty important and feel that some of the examples we see can actually be risky to follow.

I agree with you Jill that we do many things with our minis that would be an incredible safety risk with a larger horse, like ground-driving them with the cart attached.

However I know many trainers who will start out a young horse in a halter and lead reins and consider it a good way to teach a horse too young to carry a bit how to give to pressure. What about riding horses who are started out in bosals? They go through a huge amount of training long before a bit is ever introduced and in fact bitting is considered the final stage in training. I think any method that teaches the horse what is expected in a clear, logical, nonstressful manner is a legitimate method and see no problem with introducing their job in a halter then adding the bit cues once the horse already knows what's expected of them. I wouldn't drive that way, but ground-drive? Certainly!

Using an open bridle is the next step and I think it helps ease the transition between beginning work with a halter and finished driving horse in a blinkered bridle.

Can you skip the halter work? Sure! But it does no harm and lets you work while a young horse's teeth are coming in.

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Jill, JFTR, I have always started all my youngsters, ridden or driven, without bits.

The bit always came last, well after the horse was riding properly, in fact, and was taught separately, as otherwise they found it confusing.

Also, of course, so many things can go wrong with a young horse that the mouth could all too easily be damaged by a jab from the reins.

Long after the horse was riding out I would often still have my version of a Doctor Cook and a bitted bridle, so I rode with two reins.

Once a horse is going forward onto and accepting the bit it is probably OK to use it to long rein off, but I don't risk it.

My horses are driving in a halter long before they drive off a bit.

Good idea to start bitting as early as possible, though, as the more time it is in the mouth, the better the horse accepts it.

I would not be driving a two year old off one (well, I would not be driving a two year old, end of story, but, since you already are.....)

 

[Sanny]

You are off to a great start with a smart horse that trusts you and really enjoys having a job and working. He is going to be an awesome driving horse. Age wise, you are right on track with your progress.

I talk to all my horses all the time, repeating the word "walk" would be if I needed it or not. Otherwise I vary what I say and it could range from "good boy, good job" to "knock it off, you need to focus" or "quit" if he is messing around. Anyway, I am always saying something to the horse and they always seem to be listening to me, not tuning me out. Most of my horses I know well enough too that I can anticipate they are going to break stride and I might repeat the word "walk" to intercept them and keep them going along smoothly. I have a horse that loves doing roadster and park harness and when I put him in a pleasure class I am one that will be saying "walk, walk, walk, walk" over and over to keep him in a flat-footed, four beat walk otherwise he is sure to break into a prance or start cheating with a walk/jog mix. I also say the command "walk on" after reversing at the walk or asking the horse to halt.

 

[Jill]

Actually, I have ridden with both a bosal and an Dr. Cook bridle (still own one). We all have our own ways, but it's apples and oranges to compare ground driving with lines clipped to the sides of a halter, and driving (or riding) with a bosal or a bitless bridle (pressure points are a key, I think).

I'm an owner (and occasional trainer to my own horses) who really feels if it's not safe or acceptable with a full size horse, then it's not with a miniature horse, either. I've tried to hold a mini before who was bolting and it took both myself and my husband to hold her back. A mini is a lot stronger than the average person, especially if they are scared, and they themselves are just as likely to be hurt as a full size horse.

Just trying to point out something I do think is a safety concern and an important training step, but the reason we all have our own horses is because we all like to do things our own ways.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I've tried to hold a mini before who was bolting and it took both myself and my husband to hold her back. A mini is a lot stronger than the average person, especially if they are scared, and they themselves are just as likely to be hurt as a full size horse.

Absolutely, and that is why I would never recommend driving a horse to cart with only a halter. But ground-driving to me is no different than leading from the rear and the horse isn't in any more danger if he gets away than he would be if he did with you by his head except for the trailing reins. Even then, at least those reins aren't connected to his mouth if he steps on them!

I see it sort of like letting your toddler sound things out from the newspaper while you read. No, he isn't old enough for formal schooling yet. You haven't explained phonics or grammar rules or whatnot. But what harm does it do to let him pick up the basics in a fun and informal fashion if he's interested? He'll get his formal schooling later and be that much further ahead for the preview.

Once that cart's attached it's a whole different ballgame. Now if he gets away he's got a heavy weapon attached to him that can severely injury bystanders or the horse himself and you don't mess around with that. But for ground-driving? Not so much in my opinion.

And it's only my opinion!

Leia

 

[Ashley]

I personally wouldnt constantly talk to him, however I would reasure him as he needs it.

Also if it were me, at this age I would have the full harness on, and the cart attached but nobody riding in it.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

I agree with most that was posted above. I too would not keep repeating the command over and over. Once he is doing what you ask, remain quiet or the command loses its meaning. If my driving horse starts lollygagging along, I'll tell him to "Walk on!" or "Trot on!" and I say it quickly and with the emphasis on the "on." If they don't respond, then I tell them the same thing but I also add a tap with the whip.

I always start my driving horses grounddriving with the halter as well. The make a very easy, quick transition to the bit when I feel they have the basics down. And yes, I did that when I was training my big horses to ride too. I've been doing that for 15 years now. I always start in a small, controlled environment, which I believe is key. We're not talking about getting the horse on the bit and doing advanced manuevers with the halter, just the basics--pulling on the left rein means turn left, right means right, and pulling with both means stop and stand.

Here's my thinking, it is less dangerous for a young, green horse to receive a strong pull on the halter than the bit, they aren't going to hurt their mouths, and if you have a truly green horse, at least they've been wearing a halter for several years and are familiar with what to do when they feel pressure on it. If panic sets in when you first start grounddriving for whatever reason, I think they are more likely to quickly come to their senses and respond to the halter than the bit.

That said, I do make sure they've been in the bridle for awhile before hitching them to the cart.

Here's an example of a horse I've started in a halter. And, oh horror of horrors for you strictly breed ring driving people, no he was not started in a bitting rig, nor draw reins. In fact, he's been driving since he was three and he's now nine (so that's 6 years in the cart) and he never wore a bitting rig until about February of this year after I was told I couldn't drive for a few months due to a torn tendon and ligament in my arm. I didn't want to lose the progress I had made already as our goal is Super Ammy at World (he had been retired for the past few years), so I did lunge him in a bitting rig twice a week and he was free lunged some as well.

Here's Bob, the photos were taken in July:

 

[Soggy Bottom Ranch]

Thank you everyone for responding, I feel like I've learned quite a bit here today. After reading all the posts, I now feel good about the progress I'm making with Spot, and also feel good that the next steps I had planned on taking with him, were headed in the right direction. Please know that I realize he is still young, we don't do this every day, and I would never push him any further than I think he is ready for. I do not think he is mentally, or physically, ready for the cart, and that I will not even consider until next summer. I would rather take my time with him, and have him well prepared for that final step, than to push him to quick, and ruin all the hard work I've done so far. He trusts me, and enjoys the work we do together.

As for my "chatter",

you've all given me some very good examples of communication that I can use, and I will be working on getting rid of that nasty repetitive habit of mine!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Geri, I was not criticising you for starting him at what I consider to be a very young age, you are obviously taking it slowly and you have your priorities in the right order.

I would agree with Ashley in that, since this is preparatory to driving, I would have the harness on him at least once a week, although I have never experienced any real problems getting a horse into harness, in fact they never seem to have noticed it, it is only ever the breeching they seem to object to!!

As to bitting, no I would never bit a horse this early, not to put reins on, but there is no harm to putting it in his mouth and letting it hang there, no reins attached.

I don't think I would recommend anyone to drive a horse without a bit, it something I do, but not something I would advise anyone to do.

I have never used a Bosal, or anything that involves pressure points, my bitless was a drop noseband, correctly adjusted, with reins attached, no draw rein, no pinching etc!

This is what I use to drive in, in the first instance.

I have to say I have never had any problems with it, but then some people think it is dangerous to drive without blinkers, and I think, with some horse, it would be.

Same with the check rein, except, of course, it cannot be said that it is dangerous to drive without one, just some people don't feel they could, unfortunately.

As Jill said, there is no right or wrong way, here, only what is right or wrong for you and your horse.

 

[Soggy Bottom Ranch]

Thank you for taking the time to explain yourself Jane!

I was not offended at all, no worries, and as was said, everyone has their own way of doing things. I would never want to hurt my little man at all!

I have actually had Spot in harness off and on for the last year, and for the very specific reason you stated. I wanted him to be used to wearing a harness, the feel of it, and most importantly, know the feel of the breaching. And although the harness in the pic no longer fits him because he's grown so much, he is in harness at least once a week, or everyother for sure. I have even free lunged him with it on, minus the headstall and blinders, because again, I wanted him to know the feel of the breaching hitting him in the bumm!

September 2, 2007

 

[Royal Crescent]

I am just starting to work my 2 yo in a bitting rig. He seems to be coming off the bit well and moving forward (rather then just bucking, rearing or in general fighting the bit

) I have lunged him with the bitting rig too. Now I am thinking about trying to line drive him. He is so much more a challenge then the other one I broke at 2 who was much more laid back and drove down the road with a cart almost immediately. Hopefully, he will also have more fire for single pleasure. He sire was top 10, and he is far prettier and probably more motion then his sire. I look forward to reading your updates and share ideas for these babies of driving!

Barb

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I've been working with my 3YO filly, and is she SMART! We round-penned in a bitting rig first, she learned not to buck in that (jabbed her mouth AND her tail!) in one lesson. Went to ground driving, and she KNEW what the contct meant. Turns, stops on slight pressure- I was (and still am!) amazed. Last light she was hooked to the cart for the first time. We bounced the shafts off her sides, she jumped once, looked to us, saw we weren't tense and sighed. That was it. We ground drove her around in it, she learned to bump the shaft with her shoulder and rump to turn. She stops on "whoa" with little pressure. I'm still waiting for the explosion.....

I do talk to her quite a bit, but it's more of a "good girl!" than commands.

Lucy