Thinking of Re-Doing My Herd

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Long story short, I got to thinking about it and I am just not producing what I would REALLY like to see color wise in my herd. Everything else including conformation and pedigree I am happy about and wouldn't change. I would really like to focus on getting the tobiano gene out of my herd - and it just so happens all my mares and my main herd stallion have it...I'm still wishy washy on whether or not my junior stallion has it.

I would really like to focus on just frame and splash in my herd, blue eyes an obvious plus/necessity. My junior stallion is sired by a LWO+ frame and splash overo and he himself is obviously splash and I believe him to be LWO+ as well, so he could still very well be a valuable asset to my breeding program even with this change.

However I am still back and forth on using him as a stallion - he's going through a rather nasty ugly yearling stage....to the point where I don't even really like to look at him LOL. My senior/main herd stallion had that problem as a yearling but turned out beautifully and I'm hoping the same goes with him *fingers crossed*. With this being said I need an opinion on the following main questions:

1. When starting a new program - should I start with picking the stallion first and then pick the mares or vice versa?
   
2. Since I am looking at producing frames, would it be better to have an LWO positive or negative stallion? Does being LWO+ increase the likelyhood of producing loud foals?
   
3. When looking to eliminate the tobiano gene - what "signs" of tobiano should I be looking for as far as pattering goes?
   

Any other advice and tips you could lend me would be greatly appreciated. I am hoping to get things exactly how I want them and I know I have to know exactly what I want before I go "shopping".

Thanks so much friends!

EDITED TO ADD:

The main reason I am considering changing my program is because I can only have so many of my "little equines" due to our Navy life so adding a seperate program into my farm isn't an option....so if I want to produce what I am wanting color + conformation + pedigree wise I would have to do some selling of my stock and buying of new stock....

 

[disneyhorse]

Color isn't really my thing... But if what your horses don't have what you want, I'd sell most of them and then invest in horses that are all you do want.

Its like switching from AMHR to AMHA/AMHR registered horses. Maybe you've got 10 B size horses ... You'd sell your stallion and the six low quality mares and then buy a stallion and three mares that are double registered to rebuild your herd. Keep the three best B mares that maybe aren't exactly what you want but are exceptional quality. Or maybe sell those if they still aren't what you want too.

 

[Tremor]

Tobiano horses will have a solid face, white legs (If I remember right) and the white will NOT cross over the back. Overo white will cross over the back.

However, your minis may have more than one pinto gene. They may have tobiano, splash, sabino. It does happen.

You can test for all of the genes as well.

Do you have pictures of your yearling? I noticed because you don't have a website. A foal picture would do, lol. I'm curious to see how he looks (color wise)

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

Tobiano horses will have a solid face, white legs (If I remember right) and the white will NOT cross over the back. Overo white will cross over the back.

This is actually backwards, overos generally dont have white over the back and tobianos do. This is not the best method to tell the difference however as there are some that dont follow that rule. Tobianos most generally have white that runs up and down (not sure if that makes sense. If you want examples check out my website, all my pinto/pintaloosa stallions are tobianos and most of our pinto mares are as well. Very small number of mares have overo/splash characteristics as well but main markings are tobi. As for LWO I would look for a neg. stallion so that you dont have to worry about testing all of your mares, as long as he is negative you will be safe breeding him to any overo mare, which leaves you open to more options when mare shopping LOL! I also would get the best stallion you can afford first and then look for mares that will compliment him and not share faults. Its a lot easier to match mares to one stallion than trying to find a stallion that will compliment any mares you collect ahead of time if they are not similar in types/faults/ect. Hope that makes sense and good luck in your decision!

 

[Tremor]

This is actually backwards, overos generally dont have white over the back and tobianos do. This is not the best method to tell the difference however as there are some that dont follow that rule. Tobianos most generally have white that runs up and down (not sure if that makes sense. If you want examples check out my website, all my pinto/pintaloosa stallions are tobianos and most of our pinto mares are as well. Very small number of mares have overo/splash characteristics as well but main markings are tobi. As for LWO I would look for a neg. stallion so that you dont have to worry about testing all of your mares, as long as he is negative you will be safe breeding him to any overo mare, which leaves you open to more options when mare shopping LOL! I also would get the best stallion you can afford first and then look for mares that will compliment him and not share faults. Its a lot easier to match mares to one stallion than trying to find a stallion that will compliment any mares you collect ahead of time if they are not similar in types/faults/ect. Hope that makes sense and good luck in your decision!

Really?! I guess I was taught wrong!

EDIT: I just looked at the APHA website. Yep, I was taught wrong! lol.

http://www.apha.com/breed/tobiano.html

 

[Jill]

We do not breed for color, but we do really like dilute horses and most of our breeding horses, or potential breeding horses, do carry cream dilute. When we decided to put together a breeding program, we did sell or geld some of the horses we had that I didn't think fit our goals, and we added some very nice horses who were along the lines of what we wanted to produce. It's never a bad thing to take a good look at your breeding herd. People should try to breed the best, imo, not just the best that they happen to have handy.

 

[targetsmom]

Guess I don't understand why you would want to get tobiano OUT of your herd. IMO, the best way to get pinto color into your herd is to get a H/Z tobiano stallion and then ALL your foals will be pinto. You obviously can't do that with frame, but you could also do it with splash. (Sorry, but I am not a big fan of splash unless it is combined with tobiano.). If you want wild patterns, I believe the more patterns you have the better your chances, so your mares could be frame (as long as the stallion is LWO negative), tobiano, sabino, any combination, or solid.

ETA: Since you also want blue eyes, you can get a stallion with blue eyes (splash or not) and keep your blue eyed maes.

 

[vvf]

answers to your questions

1... I don't think it matters that much which you pick first, stallions or mares.... just know what you ultimately what to raise.

2. If you want to produce frame, i would pick the stallion, to cross with your non-frame mares.... but you really should also have a Splash stallion to cross to your frame mares..

3. I am not sure sure I would want to eliminate the tobiano gene.... that just gives more possibility of the wild colors

For me, I love Frame Overos (in black) .... I searched for years for the perfect stallions, I wanted a Frame overo and a Splash Overo (both black)... well I did find both, and I was very happy with the foals I was producing... then my interest changed and I really love the ASPC/AMHR horses... So I sold my Splash stallion and have my Frame stallion for sale............. I bought 2 ASPC/AMHR stallions... one is Frame and one is solid, (no pinto)...... and although I love Black, these are both sorrel LOL. I have both LWO + and LWO - mares... so I need both stallions.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Guess I don't understand why you would want to get tobiano OUT of your herd. IMO, the best way to get pinto color into your herd is to get a H/Z tobiano stallion and then ALL your foals will be pinto.

&

I am not sure sure I would want to eliminate the tobiano gene.... that just gives more possibility of the wild colors

It's not "pinto" per say that I would like to breed for - specifically I LOVE splash horses that have the typical "color on top, white on bottom" scheme to them, which is what I would ultimately love to breed and show. Which is why I would like to stay away from the tobiano gene since sometimes this can interrupt the nice coloring this pattern has. Its not really "wild" that I am going for - I just love a true splashed horse that has conformation to show off this nice pattern.

Since you also want blue eyes, you can get a stallion with blue eyes (splash or not) and keep your blue eyed maes

One mare has two blue eyes (has tobiano) and one has one blue eye (also have tobiano) and I believe if I want to get away from the tobiano to produce "true" splash then I would have to steer away from the tobiano correct?

When we decided to put together a breeding program, we did sell or geld some of the horses we had that I didn't think fit our goals, and we added some very nice horses who were along the lines of what we wanted to produce.

I weighed it heavily and I will be gelding my senior stallion Sampson, who is a tobiano that I believe carries splash (has a white marking on his lower lip, two front socks and two high rear socks that makes me believe so) since he is no where close to what I want to breed for - but he will be my gelding to love on and drive since I can't even dream of parting with him - he was my first and a forever horse.

It's never a bad thing to take a good look at your breeding herd. People should try to breed the best, imo, not just the best that they happen to have handy.

I don't want you to think that my stock isn't of good quality, because it is - it's just color is my "icing on the cake" and since I can't "add on" another program to my farm due to space limitations, I had to think about what I wanted to see when I looked in my barn color wise. NEVER would I breed a horse of low quality for color, but if I can have COLOR AND QUALITY in one package, there's no reason I shouldn't aim for it. And IMO you are exactly right and that is what I did - I examined my herd and thought of the goals I was trying to breed for so I believe that I need to change stock in order to reach my goal.

As for LWO I would look for a neg. stallion so that you dont have to worry about testing all of your mares, as long as he is negative you will be safe breeding him to any overo mare, which leaves you open to more options when mare shopping LOL! I also would get the best stallion you can afford first and then look for mares that will compliment him and not share faults. Its a lot easier to match mares to one stallion than trying to find a stallion that will compliment any mares you collect ahead of time if they are not similar in types/faults/ect.

That makes a lot of sense and I think I will be going with that....a LWO- stallion and the best stallion I can afford.

ON ANOTHER NOTE.....BREEDING CONFORMATION FAULTS:

I'm throwing out a random question here just to get a viewpoint from others since this question came up from a friend of mine who is new to miniatures. Let's say you found a stallion or mare you love everything about except he/she is mildly cowhocked. Would you keep him/her and breed it to a mate that had a correct leg set and hope for the best or move on to another horse? Would all of his/her foals have the same fault even when breeding to a correct mate, or do you just have a lower percentage of producing that trait?

(I'll be emailing her this convo so she can read it to so she can learn so any advice is helpful in that area too)

 

[Minimor]

From your description I would guess that your current stallion is sabino--the white on the bottom lip & the the leg white you describe sounds much like sabino--at least it would describe the sabino (no splash) ponies I have.

 

[Tremor]

ON ANOTHER NOTE.....BREEDING CONFORMATION FAULTS:

I'm throwing out a random question here just to get a viewpoint from others since this question came up from a friend of mine who is new to miniatures. Let's say you found a stallion or mare you love everything about except he/she is mildly cowhocked. Would you keep him/her and breed it to a mate that had a correct leg set and hope for the best or move on to another horse? Would all of his/her foals have the same fault even when breeding to a correct mate, or do you just have a lower percentage of producing that trait?

(I'll be emailing her this convo so she can read it to so she can learn so any advice is helpful in that area too)

I would not breed the horse. One of our mares was extremely cowhocked (Among other things....) and if we were lucky her foals had straight legs. I own two of her foals. One is cowhocked. The other isn't. Its not a chance to gamble. I now have a filly that I would love to do SO many things with but I have to think about how her legs will be able to handle it.

Its not worth it.

 

[Wings]

Just food for thought, but frame overos are always OLW+. You can't find a negative frame.

So to your questions:

1. Personally I would find the right stallion first but that's me and it's certainly not wrong or better to select mares first.

2. As above, frame is always positive. breeding frame to frame does not increase the chance of colour it just adds a 25% chance of a dead foal. More colour tends to come from combining patterns.

3. You've already got some good guidlines for spotting tobis, I like the 'up and down' description.

And as for conformation faults I don't want them. When you can find stock clear of those problems there's no point spending your time and money on one who does.

Good luck with where you go with your herd

 

[eagles ring farm]

We have sold some mares and added 3 mares to our herd the past few years.

It was a long search to find just what we wanted. we are small just

6 mares, 2 stallions and 1 gelding and 1 2012-filly 1 month old

and we want to be a little smaller within a few months.

Remember always put conformation first when your shopping. You'll find the right

combination with the color you want if you keep looking

We bought a second stallion and shopped for mares that complimented him and also a little shopping for our original stallion

As far as pinto color I'm lost and no help,

Good luck and enjoy

 

[HGFarm]

Test, test, test. I have seen horses that are LWO positive that you would NEVER guess are, and you dont want to breed those to another horse that is LWO positive. I also know someone who has tried to breed for frames for years- they test EVERY horse on their place. They have only had a couple of loud colored foals- most of the rest are SOLID with maybe a face marking. My neighbors currently have a mare that is solid black with a star- a few years back they bred her to another stallion that appeared to possibly carry the LWO- they had a lethal white foal, so know that the mare is also LWO. Certainly would not have guessed by the appearance!

 

[targetsmom]

Remember that Rowdy was LWO+ (therefore a frame overo) and the number of wild colored frame minis he sired was small. Now, he did sire a lot of LWO+ minis, some of the "solids". With frame you only have a 50% chance of producing frame no matter what you breed to (you do NOT increase that chance by breeding LWO+ to LWO+, you only increase the chance of getting a dead foal). We breed our LWO+ mare to our LWO negative tobiano (might also be splash and sabino, and heterozygous for tobiano) so we have a 75% chance of getting pinto and still have a chance of getting frame without tobiano. If we had a HZ tobiano stallion (we dream!), we would have a 100% chance of getting pintos but we wouldn't get any "just" frame from our LWO+ mare. But she is the one who gave us Max and now Bunny, so we really don't care what color foals she gives us.

 

[jandjmc]

You might consider buying youngsters that are already on the ground that have the features that you want rather than trying to breed for them. Everyone has different ideas about what is desirable, colorwise anyway, so I have always been able to find what I wanted for less than I would have spent if I had bred for them. Maybe consider what your absolute ideal is then look to find it? Best Wishes for you and your horses.

 

[Kelsey]

The best way of producing splashes is to breed splash to splash. I've had 100% splashes with my splash stallion, Checkers and my splash mare Boots. I also have a tobiano mare with two blue eyes that I bred to Checkers that produced 100% splash foals.

And of course all horses are tested for LWO before breeding!

 

[HGFarm]

The mare I mentioned that my friends have is Rowdy bred- solid with just a star, but is LWO positive.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Test, test, test. I have seen horses that are LWO positive that you would NEVER guess are, and you dont want to breed those to another horse that is LWO positive. I also know someone who has tried to breed for frames for years- they test EVERY horse on their place. They have only had a couple of loud colored foals- most of the rest are SOLID with maybe a face marking. My neighbors currently have a mare that is solid black with a star- a few years back they bred her to another stallion that appeared to possibly carry the LWO- they had a lethal white foal, so know that the mare is also LWO. Certainly would not have guessed by the appearance!

I always do - it's too much hard work and dedication to just "wing it" when it only takes 10 minutes and sending off the hair sample to find out! My stallion I currently use is LWO- so no need to test the girls, however I know that I would be needing to when my program changes.

I've also decided I'm just going to try to breed for straight splash overos and not frames.

You might consider buying youngsters that are already on the ground that have the features that you want rather than trying to breed for them. Everyone has different ideas about what is desirable, colorwise anyway, so I have always been able to find what I wanted for less than I would have spent if I had bred for them. Maybe consider what your absolute ideal is then look to find it?

That's true but I would really prefer to set up a small breeding program instead. My fiance is in the Navy and I need something to keep me active and busy and I love having the babies around and enjoy showing and training them as they grow.

Remember always put conformation first when your shopping. You'll find the right combination with the color you want if you keep looking

Thanks for the tip, but it wasn't for me LOL I try to be as picky as humanly possible while trying to stay within my budget....that I always seem to go over haha

QUESTION:

So from what I am reading, the best way to consistently produce splash is to breed splash x splash?

Also, does anyone know any good breeders on the eastern side of the US that have a good program going? I can't seem to do a good search on google to find them?