These pictures may be disturbing to some

[Danielle_E.]

Thank you all for your opinions and thanks Debi for your explanation as well. Even though this is painful I very much appreciate all of this since I have gained precious knowledge and many others may have as well.

Thank you.

 

[Dona]

I know you are looking for answers, Danielle and I so wish we could give them to you.  But I don't agree with Lyn though.  I have had numerous foals born that have been followed immediately or shortly (before the mare got up) by the placenta & all foals were alive.  It just happens that way sometimes, for example if she'd had a longer than norm labor.
If the foal is born dead and has been for several hours you can normally tell by looking at it all.  As mentioned the color of the placenta is one thing.  But I have had two foals born dead after prolonged dystocia Labors.  Both foals had very slack lips, the lower one just drooping down.  Their ears were still pinned back, too.

There could have been a problem with the delivery and that's why the placenta followed her.  The length of time may still have been too long for survival had you been there.

I just didn't want anyone to think that when it was all intact that it always meant the foal was born dead because that isn't the case.

Debi

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I agree with Debi....I've had a few foals who were born very much alive & well, who were followed immediately by the placenta...and I had to cut the cord. Just because you find a new foal with the placenta still attached, does not always mean it was born dead.

That being said.....this foal "could" have been already dead when it was born. It does appear to be emaciated...wrinkled skin...almost malnourished. So I suspect something was wrong. Please don't beat yourself up over this, Danielle. You may never know what the problem was. Sometimes it's just meant to be.

 

[DebiM]

That is a wonderful way to look at it, Danielle. We lost our first Mini foal when I was doing the big horse 1 hr checks. It hurt like the dickins but I did learn something.

I try to learn something from each bad experience to take something positive away from it. I think it's great that your doing that, too. HUGS

Debi

 

[Marion]

We lost a colt in January. I was there for the birth, but it was too late for him. The mare aborted due to an infection. He died during birth and we could not get him out. The vet had to be called and have him removed. There was nothing that I could do for him. He might have been about two or three weeks premature. He looked about like your foal only not as thin.

It is very sad to lose one.

 

[tagalong]

I agree with Debi....I've had a few foals who were born very much alive & well, who were followed immediately by the placenta...and I had to cut the cord. Just because you find a new foal with the placenta still attached, does not always mean it was born dead.

I agree with that ^^^^. It is not abnormal for the placenta to arrive right after a foal... I have foaled out at least 150 babies by now - and never had any trouble resulting from a placenta arriving on the foal's heels - and everything coming at once. Sometimes, it just happens that way. One big contraction - and there you go! A bit of a time saver, really - you do not have to wait around for the thing to drop.

It is not necessarily a sign that something is/was wrong....

Yes she looks kind of scrawny - but many leggy babies arrive looking like that... pointy little butts and shoulders jutting out....

Dora does not look preemie to me - her hair coat is not flat/smooth and silky looking like a preemie's... she looks fully "cooked". I suspect that at some point during delivery she may have just decided this was all too much for her....

Sometimes - even when you are there - you cannot bring these ones back. No matter how great your expertise at foal CPR.... they simply say- no thanks.

And in the end - you often never know what went wrong...

 

[Danielle_E.]

I too don't think she was preemie. At 319 days of gestation I would not consider that preemie. You are right she is very leggy and was very refined but then again Abby is a very refined mare when not pregnant and Abby is small boned and very feminine looking, when not pregnant. Well I know a few things I will do different next time. Hopefully I can get her bred again this year. I will purchase a halter alarm and I will know next year to be around from 300 days on and will be sleeping not only in the barn but in HER STALL!!!

 

[Minimor]

I'd also agree with DebiM and the others who said that just because the foal was delivered with the placenta attached, it doesn't mean that there's a problem. All but one of our foals (Morgan as well as Mini) have been delivered with placenta still attached--a few seconds after the foal arrives, there's one more big contraction and the placenta comes out. Actually my Equine Research vet book even says this is the way it happens, then goes on to say "though it's not unusual for the expulsion of the placenta to take an extra 30-40 minutes". Our foals born this way have all been healthy and strong. (Well, not counting the 2 we lost to congenital hypothyroidism last year--they were born weak, but that was the iodine deficiency/nitrate problem, nothing to do with the birthing itself.) I've never had to cut a cord--they generally break as soon as the foal tries to stand.

I do also think there was something wrong with this foal prior to birth--she just doesn't look right for a new born dead foal. We lost those two last year and they did not have that extra thin, dehydrated look to them. Ours were born alive, but just faded away and died within the hour.

What does Abby get for mineral supplements?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have foaled down a few mares in my time, I have had a few attached placentas. I have also had dead foals born without any trouble at all- in fact the only one I have had to have the Vet for was this year, that was actually my first dystocia and I consider myself lucky, but it was also a termination, not a foaling, so I expected trouble. What I have NOT had is a foal born alive in a bag- just the once in all the years I have been breeding. That was five years ago and a Mini, if I had not been there I would have lost the foal without a doubt, but it would also have been very obvious that the foal had been alive- she was lively enough to move the whole shebang a foot or more before I got there and I was RUNNING!!! Danielle, I still believe this foal was dead before arrival, in spite of the eyes etc, my first Arab died inside- absolutely NOTHING to be done, and I was sitting there! Just could not get him out. Of course you would have felt better if you had been present, and therefore reassured that you had done everything, but I think the outcome would have been the same. I had a full term termination last year and I could just see there was something not right. The foal was too small, too skinny. I think mine was arrested foetal growth, and just was unable to make up in the last months- a partially twisted cord would be enough to cause this, if it untwisted the foal would continue to live, but expire at a later date. You will never truly know, but NO-ONE here or anywhere else could ever doubt your dedication to this mare and her pregnancy. If willpower and determination were enough you would have nothing but fit and healthy foals, but, sometimes, Fate casts her hand and these things happen. Remember this poor little scrap of life that was just not meant to be, but move on. As I said, next time it will be different. God Bless, Jane

 

[Lauralee]

Danielle,

I had been following Abby's progress and I am so sorry you lost your foal. She does appear to be either black or silver dapple black. She also does not look fully mature to me, but it's hard to tell for sure. We will never know the real reason she was lost, so please take heart in knowing that you only acted on the best intentions and did what any reasonable owner would have done. It just wasn't meant to be.

HUGS FOR YOU<

Lauralee

 

[CharmedMinis]

Danielle............ I'm so sorry you lost this filly.........hugs

I wanted to share my experience from last year.

I bought a bred mare in January of 2004.

At 310 days she started waxing, she waxed for 13 days. I was new at foaling so didn't think much of it. Now I know I should have had the vet out a couple of days into waxing.

At 323 days without any warning at all my mare popped out a baby at 5:45 AM. She didn't even lay flat to set off the halter monitor. Luckily I was awake and saw her go down on the camera.

By the time I got out to the barn, only 100 feet away and only about 2 minutes from when the mare laid down, the baby was out and so was the placenta. I ripped open the sack, but the foal had never even tried to move.

The foal had a heartbeat so I grabbed her and rushed her inside the house and my Father and I tried to do CPR, we hung her upside down by the back legs, you name it we did it. After 15 minutes of trying her heart stopped. She had never even tried to open her eyes.

I took her back out to her Dam and called the vet.

He looked at the placenta and immediately said that it had probably begun seperating a couple of days before that and the foal had slowly been suffocating. The placenta was almost purple in color. He opened the foals eyes and they were dry, he said it was a sure sign she had been dying for at least a couple of days. Even though she had a heartbeat when she was born there was nothing we could have done, she was already brain dead.

The vet said from how the mare had been waxing for so long, how the birth went, how the placenta looked and everything else in between that the mare had more than likely had an infection.

My foal looked almost exactly like Dora. I don't mean color wise, but body wise. If you would like to see a picture for comparison just PM me or email me and I will be happy to send you one.

I don't think there is anything you could have done to save this baby.

And just as an FYI for everyone...........premature can be different for every mare and every foal. Many on this forum have mares that routinely deliver foals before 300 days and the foals are fine. My one and only foal this year was born at 314 days gestation and was premature in every meaning of the word, she had multiple preemie related problems and is still recouping.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Thank you so much for your post. I keep going over and over in my mind about what "I" might have done wrong and it is very much consuming my energy and my emotions. I would love to see the pics nd know what you did after this happened to this mare. Did you have her flushed and put on antibiodics and re-breed? and if so did you have a successful pregnancy and foaling? I will p.m. you and thank you for sharing with me. It is by people willing to share that I and others who are new to breeding will learn.

 

[Danielle_E.]

The placenta was very red in color, not brownish or anything and the foal was found with her eyes open in the sac

 

[Beccy]

Danielle I am so very sorry for the loss of your filly. (((hugs)))

 

[Danielle_E.]

Thank you. I am sorry to hear the problem with your little one. I read your post but I am afraid I have no suggestions as to what it might be. Sending you and the little one positive vibes that all will be fine.

 

[Beccy]

Thank you Danielle. The only thing that is keeping me from going crazy over this is the fact that she does not seem to be in pain. I am praying for some improvement very soon...

 

[auledasacres]

Our first colt this year was born and the placenta came with him. I don't know for sure but my gut was that had we not been there he would have never made it out of the sack and we would have lost him.

I am so sorry for your loss.

I appreciate your posting these things so that others can learn.

My thoughts are with you and this poor momma.

Traci

 

[Danielle_E.]

Thanks Traci. It is difficult in the best of times but it hit me quite hard because this is the first time I have a mare in foal and even though you hear about it on this forum, the death of a foal, of a foaling gone wrong, you never think it will happen to you. On Wednesday night, Abby foaled during that day, I was ready to throw-in-the-towel. I kept going over and over in mind asking myself what did I do wrong? The guilt factor really plays into something like this and then you go out seeking answers or possible scenarios and with the help of all the wonderful people here I got to learn what some of the possibilities might have been. On Thursday I was still very upset but I was fortunately that Abby was fine, didn't seem bothered by any of this, so I had that to be thankful for. By Friday I told myself that sometimes mother nature knows best in this particular case. I know that next time, if there is a next time and I am successful in getting Abby in foal again there are some things I will be doing different to try and perhaps minimize the chance of this happening again.