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Little Wolf Ranch

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Let's be honest, most of us consider our miniatures to be our hobby and while it is fun, most of us (or at least our money conscious husbands) would like to break even or better yet, make money while enjoying this hobby! So let's get a little serious for a moment.

Who here has actual broke down the costs from the initial breeding, through mare keeping, to foaling and all the way to weaning and date of sale in order to calculate the costs? I cam across a website with an amazing Excel spreadsheet (not sure if I can share it here or not, so will an admin please approve that I can or confirm that I can't??) that had you break down the costs for everything from the original cost of buying the mare, to stud fees, to caring for the mare through pregnancy, to foaling costs, etc. and it enlightened me that I should be bringing in somewhere between $850-$1200 per foal to be able to break even on all of the costs for the time from breeding to the sale date at weaning. I'm sure my husband would gasp at the sight of these numbers, so I'll keep that hush hush for now lol.

So, my point being, is who here can say they have actually been able to be "in profit range" for selling their foals, or do you even take the numbers into consideration? Keep in mind, the numbers above have nothing to do with the QUALITY of the foal. These numbers were just calculated purely by the costs put into each mare to get a live and healthy foal on the ground, and seeing as my costs are very reasonable compared to other areas of the US, I am sure it can vary much lower or much higher depending on a variety of factors.

I'm sure all of us would love for the miniatures to either maintain themselves, or better yet make a profit, which in todays market is hard to do. I do plan on using the spreadsheet to help price my foals along with their quality. Obviously a poorly bred conformational mess will not bring those prices unless you can sweet talk a fool into buying it but this is assuming that the foal is of quality, which I do hope they are based on the sires and dams. It's always a shot in the dark about what you will get, but let's talk business for a moment!
 
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email me the link Katie so I can tell you if it can be posted here, it sounds very interesting and something we'd all like to see!
 
For me, just keeping the horses to breed and sell did not profit. It was more of a hobby. Especially because the prices of the foals increases drastically if the parents were shown and did well. I had to work a dull time soul crushing day job to fund my horse showing. Once the horse market crashed and quality foals couldn't bring the prices needed, even to break even, I knew I had to do things differently. You cannot run a business to break even and not go out of business. The bills have to be paid somehow. I don't have a rich husband or a rich daddy to fund my little endeavors like many of the women in my local area do.... so I had to get creative. Breeding is a small part of what I do. I have waiting lists of buyers and mostly sell foals "on order" so the deposit money can cover some cost of mare care and foal vetting. Many foals have deposits on them as soon as momma is confirmed bred. I sell weanlings as soon as possible so my investment into feed, stabling and training/time is minimal. It is no longer profitable for me to keep a foal for years, break, train and finish it then sell it with show miles because the cost of all that far exceeds the realistic price that I can get for the horse in today's market. Riding ponies are a different story, people want kid tested, mother approved broke and sane child's mounts. If I pasture them for as long as I can to reduce feed and bedding cost, utilize my working students free labor as much as possible and find affordable shows to bring them to, I can make it work. It is the boarding, training, riding lessons, clinics, classes and other services that we offer that turn a profit while tying into the breeding. It is all a numbers balance game. I need a certain number of boarders, students and training clients to fund my own horses and pay my personal bills. If I lose a client without replacing them, one of my personal horses must be sold, or I won't be able to feed him/her. I also raise and sell bantam chickens, geese and ducks, pheasants and bunnies for sale as well as eggs and hatching eggs, and we raise and sell meat birds, rabbits and LOTS of beef cows. We make and sell a lot of hay and corn silage to pay the farm bills as well as doing custom work. I have found that if I stay diversified, then I can do okay. At the end of each month, I look at our numbers, what my expenses for each category were, how much we brought in and make adjustments as needed so I do not get into trouble. Many people in my area sell a large quantity of foals at low prices (they're not of great quality) and make their money that way. Some bought horses at very high prices and ask unrealistic prices for unknown and un trained foals and the only way they sell is to find a sucker to buy it. Butvmost of those people have full time jobs and "farm" as a hobby.
 
I have yet to breed, but i'm going into this with the mind set that i'm doing it to get 1) a top quality filly or colt who gets in the ribbons as a yearling, 2 year old, 3 year old, 4 year old then 2) drives into the ribbons. Thats my plans for my first ever homebred. Obviously this may not happen, but my view on breeding is that its for the love of it, i NEVER expect to make money on it hence why i'm going to be a very economical small time person and i wont even call myself a stud cause i just will not be that - i havent enough room for one. Im going to focus more so on producing but i think i really need a foal for the experience so that in the future if my circumstances change, i can go into a more breeding set up with experience .
 
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We had a business plan when we started that showed we could make a tiny bit of money from just breeding. But that was assuming we could sell foals for what we were paying for our breeding stock (around $5,000 each) and not having THOUSANDS in vet fees and hospitalizations each and every year. Reality was that I think we figured we would need to sell our first live foal (in 2009) for $100,000 to break even. Needless to say we never did break even, and when the market really tanked we quit (in 2013). But we did prove to ourselves that we could breed really fine miniatures and we hope to be showing some of them for years to come. We feel very fortunate that in those years of breeding, with all the foals we lost, we never lost a mare.
 
This could get lengthy - but hopefully I can impart a lot in fewer words as TargetsMom has...

When I started I wasn't looking to produce show stock for the Shetland or Mini horse breeds. In fact, my aim was to produce a Xbred pony that was competitive if desired but also a beloved family riding pony. To have both, I needed to start with good conformation and GREAT attitudes, in smaller packages - I'd been out of the equine world a long time and wanted to be able to return to training by myself.

If I had it on a spread sheet - you will view it as a hobby. I simply NEVER made enough to cover all the expenses, BUT we did cover what I needed to to do what I wanted. Hmm... I knew we were at "hobby level" and had it confirmed off and on when speaking w/ accountants and tax folks about setting up and running what I did as a business.

Not all of the mares we started with were registered or even had well known bloodlines BUT they were proven producers of what I was wanting to produce myself, for my family and for others as we "outgrew" the smaller ponies. They were not the lowest priced equine, nor were they the most expensive. They were what I could afford at the time and few of our mares were priced less than $2,000 (a couple were) and none over $5,000. I took on two mares over the years that were "free" - 1 had serious health issues (she was partially paralyzed) and the other had serious training/handling issues w/ a special needs 2 week old colt at her side. Both of these mares were in their teens when we got them. In fact, many of our mares have been purchased well after the age of 10.

For our program originally - the mares had to do "double duty" - they were our daughters' and my riding mounts as well as producing foals for our daughters to grow into. I sold many of the foals, kept some that our children started under saddle and then moved on to purchase all larger (horse) mares for the girls to ride. It was difficult to maintain the purebred Shetlands, so all but 2 were sold and those 2 were both leased out for extended periods while the girls rode the biggies... We either had limited number of foals or none... Some of the original, older mares passed over the rainbow bridge while with us - others were sold at much lower prices than I'd paid for them and kept on "working" as mounts for loving families and for riding schools.

When the girls went on to college, I maintained 1 horse for each for them but I wanted back into the Shetlands and in 2009 - suddenly had the opportunity to get quite a number of mares whose bloodlines, conformation and colors worked for me. Many of those were purchased from folks going out of business - the prices were much lower than in the past which worked great. Again, several were older and had never had regular handling or any "real" training. Others were jr horses and foals w/ limited handling. I did some selling and some purchasing and some trading, too... I produced a number of foals that I am in love with - larger numbers than in the past which I've found doesn't work real well when I'm doing all the work myself. Right now, I've produced quite a number of young horses that should be sold, but haven't since the market has tanked.

Now, I have a very large number of ponies. Right now, none are getting the grooming or training they should have - but they are fed, vetted and the farrier is out 2x a month to rotate thru all 25 head + 2 boarders. We moved onto a new property in Dec 2014 and we are still getting situated - both outside on the property and in the house - w/ building projects in both "areas" (TIME as well as $$). I haven't advertised recently while we were in "flux" - just was easier not to have to deal w/ prospective buyers at the time - especially when the ponies were all housed in temporary qtrs. and I didn't want people just showing up out there... Soon, I will advertise a few again.

I've been able to keep our expenses lower in several ways - making our own training and showing equipment and outfits; hauling ponies/horses for others - to cover our expenses when I could; doing as much of our own vetting as we can; for the larger # of animals we now have - purchasing feed/hay in bulk; having the ponies do the work of moving manure, hay, trees and even harrowing the ground rather than using tractor/gas - when we can. In the past, I've trained ponies/horses for others as well as given lessons - but insurance requirements became more than what I could afford for the amount I was doing here in NC. I've been asked if I would restart - and we might see about that. When all the property is finished - we will have a "pony playground" that we hope to be able to open to the public w/I 2 years that will include driving/riding/walking trails weaving thru the trees on our 21 acres; obstacles including a pond for fording (won't be deep enough to swim them in), bridges over dry ground as well as over water, jumps, walk overs, hills & various others in planning stages...

I have given away a few ponies in the past. Recently, I offered 2 ponies for free again - they were both already gelded, had had extensive work w/ one ready to start pulling and be ready for hitching/driving as a 3 yr old and his full brother coming along as a young 2 yr old ready to start ground driving, however he did have the beginnings of problems w/ locking stifles (both sides). The responses I got were NASTY, and of course, everyone wanted to pick from my herd whom they wanted "for free" - got lots of folks telling me I had too many and should just give away 1/2 of them - at their choosing. Understandably - I haven't re-advertised any for sale since. I did find what I think is a good home for the boys, they did go together and were happy, but the home is quite far away and I seem to have lost contact now...
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When I was growing up and dealing with horse breeders from different breeds (mostly Stock and working Arab/ but also imported Trakhaner and warm bloods), it was always my understanding that a foal HAD to be WORTH, between weanling and yearling ages, at least 3-5x what the stud fee was for the you to make it as a breeder. In all actuality - that doesn't cover what you may have paid for the mare OR invested in her by showing/proving her before breeding - then - and definitely not now. Even when breeding the "best to the best" - you could still get one who wouldn't "measure up" and that's where culling both your breeding stock and young stock came in... Also, in all breeds, some haven't lived up to the jobs expected (my favored Doc Bar comes to mind) but DID find "niches" in other markets w/I their own breed or outside of it.

I don't know how any breeder can make it in todays' market and really love what AmySue has done to make it/her program work. I can't imagine having a horse breeding farm w/o an outside job (or 2 or 3).

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Didn't meet my goal of fewer words - LOL
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In years past - I made good money - yes, way more than my expenses (however on paper, because I depreciated my purchased horses, it didn't always mean a profit for tax purposes but when comparing sales to actual expenses, yes, I made money). I have always done my own shots, treated injuries myself, treated the very rare case of laminitis myself, always kept my horses wormed on time, have treated colic without the help of a vet unless it was clear that it was more than a simple colic, etc. My horses are outside 24/7 with access to shelter, which greatly reduced stress/ulcer issues, as well as reduced snotty noses. I have made sure that I bought only the best hay I could possibly find, and made sure my horses were well fed for their individual needs.....which equates to much less vet bills. The only thing I do not do is trim feet...which was a huge expense but worth it because I had a farrier that did an excellent job of keeping those horses straight.

Growing up for the last 63 years on a farm and having horses for most of those years made a huge difference in my knowledge base. So many people today don't have a lot of practical experience, try to learn from a book, but you cannot diagnose unless you have walked in the shoes for a while.

Edited: And I made sure I was buying the best animals I could....not just because I liked the color....or because it was "sweet". Color and sweet doesn't pay the bills if it is sway backed, crooked legged, jug headed, with a bad bite.
 
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...Obviously a poorly bred conformational mess will not bring those prices unless you can sweet talk a fool into buying it ...
I'm sorry... but your comment just doesn't sound very nice.

Perhaps, instead of copying spreadsheets, you could focus on customer relations? I'm a potential customer and I gotta' tell you, I wouldn't want to be the fool who's sweet-talked into buying your breeding mistake. I think there's a market out there for people who want a horse that looks nice. Maybe they don't want (or can't afford) a horse that is show quality, but they also don't want a broke-down, fat-bellied nag with bad feet. I really think this is an opportunity that is missed by many breeders.
 
We have been extremely lucky when it comes to producing and selling our foals over the years. Our approach is fairly simple and that is to produce the best quality foals out of constantly upgraded mares and stallions.

We honestly evaluate all the aspects of each and every one the horses in our herd, each and every year. The yearly task is never fun, but to us is the only way to stay on top of the market and also achieve the goals we set for oursleves each year. Considerations such as pedigree, previous breeding results and future possiblities are important to us. We also try to keep a watchful eye on industry standards as they change and then we attempt to stay ahead of that curve.

Further we constantly fight against being barn blind and work to find every horse a life job, be that family pet or extreme show horse. The pricing seems to take care of itself when we approach things in that manner. The industry as a whole is better now than it has been in the last 6 or 7 years. which is great for everyone.

Pricing is indeed subjective and we have personally seen the average price on the horses we produce each year increase nearly double in the last 3 years. I believe this is because we are extremely selective in our breeding attempts and very critical of any and all foals we produce. Plus the economy is better in our part of the country overall.
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Add to that the fact that we as a small farm depend on our sucesses in the ring to promote the bloodlines and offspring we produce. We strive to place horses in every part of the country in order to expose folks to what we are doing and how it is working. In order to do this we have and will continue to dramitically discount our horses to show homes and areas where we do not normally show ourselves personally. Continued involvement with the new owners is a must also, if you are going to maximize the potencial of any union of any owner and every horse.
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All of these things constitute a marketing plan in its simpliest form. Some form of a business plan is paramount to the sucess of any operation in my opinion if you want to at least break even in this expensive game we all enjoy playing.
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