Stupid Old AMHR Breeder

[LaVern]

Gee, HGF Farm I don't know how I can say it more clearly.

I have a horse that is AMHA registered. (That is the outfit in Fort Worth, Texas).

I want to hardship it into AMHR (that is the outfit in IIllinois)

All I have to do is send a copy of the AMHA( the outfit in Fort Worth Texas) papers to AMHR (the outfit in Illinois) and pay the reg. fee and the 100.00 hardship fee.

 

[Minimor]

I still fail to see why you would ever think it preferable to skip doing AMHR stallion reports (they aren't that hard, and they are free) and refuse to pay a $20 registration fee and have (or sell) an AMHA horse only that someday you (or some buyer) then have to pay $100 PLUS $60 registration (if the horse is 3+ years old). Really? What kind of sense does that make?

Yep, it makes a lot of sense to hang on to those AMHA only horses, just keep right on refusing to pay AMHR registration fees and then discover a year & more from now that you're losing out on some sales because buyers want horses to have AMHR papers and they don't want to have to pay $460/$260 to hardship in those horses.....or maybe even more than that in the event that hardshipping fees go higher than the current regular rate. If you cannot see that it is YOU, not AMHR, who is hurting your program then I truly feel sorry for you.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I still fail to see why you would ever think it preferable to skip doing AMHR stallion reports (they aren't that hard, and they are free) and refuse to pay a $20 registration fee and have (or sell) an AMHA horse only that someday you (or some buyer) then have to pay $100 PLUS $60 registration (if the horse is 3+ years old). Really? What kind of sense does that make?

Yep, it makes a lot of sense to hang on to those AMHA only horses, just keep right on refusing to pay AMHR registration fees and then discover a year & more from now that you're losing out on some sales because buyers want horses to have AMHR papers and they don't want to have to pay $460/$260 to hardship in those horses.....or maybe even more than that in the event that hardshipping fees go higher than the current regular rate. If you cannot see that it is YOU, not AMHR, who is hurting your program then I truly feel sorry for you.

^^^^^^ LIKE!!!

 

[Sandee]

Kaykay "Initially the horses that hardshipped AMHR were foundation ponies with no hackney outcrosses, they had A papers. "

Excuse me? My (ex)stallion is AMHA & AMHR. He's under 32". He also has bloodlines (big ones including Orion / Gold Melody Boy) that I can trace back to Shetlands and Hackneys in Europe from before AMHR started.

Come one people. These little horses didn't just appear on the planet. They were bred down and if you can't believe it I can post the whole lineage (for mine anyway).

As for MiLo and LaVern, get a grip. I have kept up the AMHA papers on my horses when there are no shows in my state and only 1 or 2 in the surrounding states. AMHA is a big bust for me but I don't get on here and run it down. Pinto is another dissapointment for me as their show fees here in Wisconsin are not in line with many other states but WAAAAY high! So a beef is a beef. I don't like this one. You don't like that one. Get over it.

And as for all the money you were making breeding AMHR/AMHA.....hmmmmm, I don't think so. Those days are LONG gone. Obama will have us all in the poor house house soon. At least we'll have lots of company.

There now that's a GRIPE!

 

[REO]

Please stay on track and don't make your replies argumentative or personal. What Lavern is trying to say is her opinion and as a long time breeder and supporter of the registry she is entitled to it.

Please be nice

 

[dreaminmini]

I think this, unfortunately, is an argument that will never be solved. My own opinion is that the AMHR is after more AMHA horses to boost it's numbers. It is not necessarily a bad thing, allowing for new bloodlines, new members and new horses into our registry. Unfortunately, I think they were wrong in allowing the $100 hardshipping a second year. It does cause a strain for the straight AMHR breeder. But,interestingly enough, it is amazing news for the ASPC pony breeders. It couldn't get much better for them. Why don't we just call it like it is and just ditch the AMHR miniature horse and have the MSPR (Miniature Shetland Pony Registry). There would be no need for hardshipping, heck, don't even bother to measure, not that they do it all that honestly now. You would boost numbers at Congress by quite a bit and we wouldn't have to worry about the rule allowing cross entering of ASPC and AMHR at the same show. Since we are reminded every two seconds that Miniature Horses are just really ponies anyway we can just throw out all of those people who dedicated themselves to creating what we know as the miniature horse,(they must have been hallucinating) and the people who enjoy owning and showing them, they were smoking something too. Give all that money to the pony people because they are the only ones who count anyway. I will take my little figments of my imagination and enjoy them, love on them, do carriage driving, horse agility and therapy work hopefully away for the cheats, liars and abusers. Maybe we need a straight miniature horse registry for us people that think the miniature horse has value and has after years of careful breeding has become it's own entity. Something that can take this further and get a breed standard and put value back into this lovely breed because it is endangered and soon to become extinct. Scoff if you want but I love my miniature horses and I want them to continue.

As I write this I have been thinking more on this subject...bear with me...honestly think about this...dig deep...

Actually, I don't think the miniature horse people in reality would even be against the double registered pony itself IF it truly fits the criteria and standard such as it is. It is PEOPLE, the problems that people have created that accompanies that pony in the AMHR registry. It is the oversized ponies that get measured in when they are 40" and are winning, the judges that can't see for themselves that the horses are oversized and shouldn't be placed or not placed well, it's the yearlings and two year olds that just get measured in at the top height and everyone knows full well they won't be back next year as 2 or 3 yr olds but they are winning everything now, The same ones that will go to the breed shed and quite probably breed another oversized pony for an unsuspecting buyer to purchase. The driving ones with the lovely PLEASURE action that go to Nationals and compete in Country Pleasure and win even though they should not be in the class in the first place forcing the true country pleasure horses into the Western Country Pleasure class (they were massive this year). the judges for not recognizing this and still placing them very high. The pony breeders that sell double registerable ponies for good money with no height guarantee so some poor schmuck that wanted a miniature horse ends up with a horse that can only be shown Shetland and what if that is not what he/she wanted??? Now they are stuck with this pony or stuck trying to sell it or finding out where they can take it to get it measured in as a mini still. Maybe we need to look closer at our judges and stewards and see what agenda they have and what they are projecting to have. Maybe we need more people to stand up and protest the wrongs they see. Maybe we need more stringent guidelines on our judges and more education. Is it possible to achieve some sort of balance here??

 

[Jean_B]

Please stay on track and don't make your replies argumentative or personal. What Lavern is trying to say is her opinion and as a long time breeder and supporter of the registry she is entitled to it.

Please be nice

 

[Jean_B]

I still fail to see why you would ever think it preferable to skip doing AMHR stallion reports (they aren't that hard, and they are free) and refuse to pay a $20 registration fee and have (or sell) an AMHA horse only that someday you (or some buyer) then have to pay $100 PLUS $60 registration (if the horse is 3+ years old). Really? What kind of sense does that make?

Yep, it makes a lot of sense to hang on to those AMHA only horses, just keep right on refusing to pay AMHR registration fees and then discover a year & more from now that you're losing out on some sales because buyers want horses to have AMHR papers and they don't want to have to pay $460/$260 to hardship in those horses.....or maybe even more than that in the event that hardshipping fees go higher than the current regular rate. If you cannot see that it is YOU, not AMHR, who is hurting your program then I truly feel sorry for you.

Snippity snide snarky remarks are not necessary in order to make a point in this discussion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as it is POLITELY stated. And no, I don't see myself as the 'polite police'. Hateful word just get my dander up, that's all and in my old age, I'm getting less tolerant of intolerance.

But to the point about registering - as long as the stud reports are filed - you can go back many years and get a horse AMHR registered and you don't have to worry about the possibility of large hardship fees. Have done it with a mare that was 4 years old that I bought on application. Piece of cake if you trust the person you are buying from.

And Yes, I feel the lower hardship fee is de-valuing the AMHR horse. When the fees were higher, people had to give some serious consideration to whether or not that pony or AMHA animal was worth the cost. Now, with it being so low, and because of the latest fad being the double registered ASPC/AMHR animal - some people are hardshipping in (in my opinion which I am totally allowed to have here in the old U.S. of A.) some marginal quality animals because it's cheap to do so. I am NOT saying all are marginal....just a few. But you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Ah.....and so the pendulum will swing....I've been at this for over 20 years and have seen HUGE changes in what people want, and believe it or not, I've noticed a HUGE comeback for the under 30" animal. You know why? So many moved to the B division, that the class sizes were small for the "littles" - so more and more are showing in that arena again because "HEY! Maybe I can bring home a National ribbon with such small classes!" And the pendulum swings...and swings....and swings.

 

[Minimor]

If you thought there was anything snippy or snide in that quoted post then you haven't seen much snippy or snide..because it certainly wasn't written as such--and no worries, I would never assume you to be the polite police.

 

[LaVern]

Thanks Jean for backing me up on this one. We don't always agree, but I love it that I always know exactly how you feel. I also appreciate any one that feels sorry for me too. Right now me and anyone else that raises only amhr horses needs all the sympathy that we can get.

Went over to talk things over with Swigg this morning. He sort of puts a different slant on things.

After listening he said, " It sounds like you don't mind being a used lady, you just want to be a high price used lady."

 

[MiLo Minis]

MiLo, we gotta find a new hobby. How about that ice fishing? There has got to be something to it with all the people that seem to love it. We could get one of those portable little houses with a heater in it and play checkers.

We could hang our lines down there and gab about the good old days when Minis were Minis :0) There is something to be said about the peace and quiet of an icehut in the middle of a lake far from civilization....

 

[LaVern]

Yeah MiLo, as much as I gripe, I have to admit that the last 25 years of raising these 100.00 horses has been a hoot. Man, for some fun times. Some awfully expensive fun times, but Golly, I bet we have enough good memories to last the rest of our lives.

After talking to Swigg and Gina yesterday, I have kind of put this into perspective.

Vanity is a terrible thing. I think I was just getting too proud of myself and my horses. I was just getting too uppity and got put in my place real quick. The label Straight AMHR Miniatures was just too pretentious. "Only", is what we are and maybe humility is what will get us to our great reward in the sky.

 

[Margo_C-T]

You know, reading this entire thread, and thinking about it, has changed my mind. I mentioned in my earlier post that I would have hardshipped my unregistered-but-size-eligible gelding into AMHR, but I now see how that really might not be fair to those breeding for up-to-and-including 38" MINIATURE HORSES

I always had a hard time w/ the 'set-up' of AMHR...to my eyes, being used for all the years since its inception, basically just to support the parent registry financially. All those years that you had to own Shetlands in order to be on the Board of Directors, even though BOTH registries were 'supposed' to count? I could never believe how the APSC 'got away with' what I saw as blatant discrimination against those they 'created' in the first place....

Now it seems to be coming full-circle; the very group who originally had the (great, I'd admit)marketing idea to call their smaller individuals "miniature horses', to set a 'new' measurement site that would make the horses seem even SMALLER, and BTW, set the original height limit at 34"; only years later was that changed to take the height limit to 38".(One wonders if that was simply the first step in swinging the emphasis back to the Shetland??) has steered the current 'trend' that the 'preferred' animal is AMHR and ASPC...In my view, this means that again, being registered with ASPC is seen as being 'more important'than being 'simply' AMHR.

I have nothing against Shetlands; heck, I fell hard for a lovely bay registered Shetland 45"+ mare some years ago, seeing her for sale online in a neighboring state-but though very young, she was both in foal and untrained...NOT what I wanted or needed. Recently Fate brought me again into 'proximity' with her, and I still LOVE her...but, again, she is not what I need at this time of my life.

I got into miniature horses because I LIKE MINIATURE HORSES, and have come to appreciate the 'larger' end of THEIR size spectrum for driving. I have NO interest in breed showing anymore...partly due to the kind of concerns I've seen others express in this thread, such as demonstrable 'welshing' on height, and on the quality of the judging compared to the published rules,esp. in driving classes...things that are VERY frustrating to those who believe that qualifications/specifications are written to be FOLLOWED. What bothers me above nearly all else is seeing Miniature horses heading in the direction of such registries as AQHA, where IMO, the unique QH 'type' has been lost, with conformation all over the board, and quite often, only the WORST features 'preserved'.

It seems to me that the registries are at times too inclined to first serve their own perceived financial 'needs', without first thinking through the possible consequences to some/all of their members. I am not against hardshipping, but it is a privilege that should require close adherence to strict rules of inspection and enough cost to weed out all but extremely well-qualified candidates. I can very well appreciate Renee's position now, after reflection upon of all aspects of this issue.

Margo

 

[TMR]

As I read through all of this topic, I can't help but laugh. I have been with AMHR for 20 years, so have watched the registry through its changes. I have yet to understand this dislike of Shetlands and the want of "straight" miniature. Lets face the fact the majority of miniatures are shetlands. Just because you threw away the ASPC papers years ago does not make them suddenly "not shetland" and lets be honest that is what happened years ago. The marketing that Margo talks about, many breeders threw away the ASPC papers and stated no these are "miniature horses". Now it come full circle and all of a sudden many want those papers back. Most all of the big named miniature horses are mostly, if not all "Shetland". The heritage has not fallen away when the papers were tossed. As for harshipping, it is unfortunate that it is again so cheap, but do you really want to lose your heritage of the ponies (oops mini horses) by hardshipping. When I hardshipped some in years ago I hated the unknown status that was put in for sire and dam and never hardshipped another one. I worked hard for many years for my pedigrees and dang it I want it on the papers. Plus, many of us buyers do look at the papers and look for certain pedigrees.

Now don't get your panties in a wad, over my stating about the mainly shetland blood in your miniatures. All of you miniature horse breeders, should be proud of the fact that you took shetlands and through selective breeding have given the offspring a different look and personality in just 3 or 4 generations.

Renee, although I know you don't like admitting your horses have alot of shetland blood in their heritage, you should embrace the specific lines that you have used and instead be proud of what you have produced. You have specifically bred horses that have given you what you wanted and that does not come easy. You have spent years doing it and you cannot get what you breed through AMHA papered horses hardshipped or not.

 

[RayVik]

To demonstrate another perspective of the constant and age old comment that minis are Shetlands....

I would quickly and adamantly state that if that is a fact and it is a fact anyone embraces then I contend that the mini's are the purest form of Shetland remaining. No hackney blood was introduced no outcrossing has occured so what remains is only those little Shetlands whom had their papers thrown away. Further if this is such a common and well know and established fact that mini's are in fact little Shetlands then perhaps it's time to reverse the order of things and give all these pure mini Shetlands the Shetland papers they truly deserve and take these Shetlands with shetland papers and make them show ponies

Maybe it's time the minis just accept the fact they are Shetlands and being the largest segment of the small equine industry make it official. If the mini cannot have there own identity then just make them what they are

 

[LaVern]

Not like Shetland blood? Are you kidding?. Why would I spefically buy and use 5 tall Rowdy sons and 5 tall Buckeroo sons? It was because I liked their look better than some of the AMHA horses of that day. They were the only miniature lines I could find then that had somewhat of a documented pedigree. It wasn't so easy to get information before the internet. But, I tried to find out all I could about those Shetland lines. Cresent Largo Kewpie and others that I can't remember anymore. I sudied those little old magazines. And called and wrote old Shetland breeders. And then Larry gave me piles to study.

I also love the Welsh and used what I liked of them.

I used them to try to produce a new miniature horse, 34-36 inches that I liked. It was to be called the AMHR miniature horse and some of us were very excited about it.

It is still an on going process and some of us were still very excited about it until we were told the papers on our horses were only worth 100.00.

 

[minih]

To demonstrate another perspective of the constant and age old comment that minis are Shetlands....I would quickly and adamantly state that if that is a fact and it is a fact anyone embraces then I contend that the mini's are the purest form of Shetland remaining. No hackney blood was introduced no outcrossing has occured so what remains is only those little Shetlands whom had their papers thrown away. Further if this is such a common and well know and established fact that mini's are in fact little Shetlands then perhaps it's time to reverse the order of things and give all these pure mini Shetlands the Shetland papers they truly deserve and take these Shetlands with shetland papers and make them show ponies

Very interesting and unique thought.

 

[Minimor]

You would have to first weed out any and all Appaloosas--either those with appy coloring or characteristics or those with known Appaloosa in their pedigreed...because Shetlands cannot be Appaloosa--Appaloosa means there is some other pony breeding mixed in there.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

To demonstrate another perspective of the constant and age old comment that minis are Shetlands....

I would quickly and adamantly state that if that is a fact and it is a fact anyone embraces then I contend that the mini's are the purest form of Shetland remaining. No hackney blood was introduced no outcrossing has occured so what remains is only those little Shetlands whom had their papers thrown away. Further if this is such a common and well know and established fact that mini's are in fact little Shetlands then perhaps it's time to reverse the order of things and give all these pure mini Shetlands the Shetland papers they truly deserve and take these Shetlands with shetland papers and make them show ponies

Maybe it's time the minis just accept the fact they are Shetlands and being the largest segment of the small equine industry make it official. If the mini cannot have there own identity then just make them what they are

LOL you know I was actually thinking the same thing. I wonder how big Congress would be if our "mini shetlands" that don't have ASPC papers because generations back were thrown away if were accepted back into ASPC if we were allowed to show both AMHR and ASPC. Seems like that could help solve the problem concerning low entries and lack of profit.

 

[iowa]

This is the same debate that has been going on since the AMHA split from the AMHR in the 70's. From reading the old magazines, I gather that the AMHA did not want to compete with Shetlands which is why many did not want a Shetland on the pedigree. Yes, we all know there WERE Shetlands in the pedigrees - Gold Melody Boy, Kewpie, etc., but I think they wanted to establish a real breed of thier own. I wish we could come up with a standard for a miniature. So far we've had stock type, Arabian type and now Shetland type. I guess the debate will never end and I don't think we will ever have a standard because too many people have their own opinions of what a miniature should look like. Is there anyone out there that was there when the AMHA split off and perhaps shed some light on what their vision was? Just curious.