Stud chains in mouths

[MiniHunterHorseFan]

What is other people's opinions on putting stud chains in horses mouths and yanking on them in general? Isn't it cruel? Can't another form of punishment be used? I'm just wondering why anyone has to do it? I feel really bad for horses that have to endure it because I wouldn't want someone to put cold metal that snaps harshly against my tongue. Just my opinion.

 

[ohmt]

I suppose it depends on how it's being done. Metal on a horse's tongue.....like having a bit in the mouth? Or like using a twitch? Horse's have different pain thresholds when it comes to their mouth which is why a horse can have their teeth pulled one minute and be out running around and eating the next. So a bit in YOUR mouth is a lot different than a bit in a horse's mouth. A stud chain in your mouth is a lot different than a stud chain in a horse's mouth. Have I ever used a stud chain in a horse's mouth? Nope (I don't use twitches either), but I'm not going to get upset about another person using it if I don't know their reasoning behind it and if I haven't seen the extent of this 'yanking'

 

[disneyhorse]

Anything can be "cruel" depending on the situation/circumstance and how it is applied.

Jerking on a snaffle bit is just as cruel as jerking on a stud chain, is it not?

Is applying a stud chain over the gum to help twitch a fractious horse that needs an injection cruel?

That said, I believe that slow, consistent training is MY way to go and I've never had to resort to a stud chain through the mouth on my horses.

However, I have dealt with an ill-mannered, 2000 pound Percheron gelding that would just as soon drag you off than go where you wanted, so when I had to lead him, he got a stud chain through his mouth and guess what, if he STILL tried to drag someone off, he got jerked in the mouth with it until he decided to pay attention. So in that situation, what do you do? Just let the horse drag you off?

This post is too vague to really answer one way or another...A

Andrea

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Using a mouth shank is normal operating procedure in breeding farms. Its the same thing as a nose chain, when wielded by a sensitive, experienced handler. In breeding, it signifies to the stallion that they are going to the breeding shed, and its appropriate to act like a stallion. In every day activities, stallions are often handled with nose chains. That gives the stallions a definite que they understand to tell them how they are expected to behave.

Of course, protocol varies between farms. That is just the way I've been taught, and the way I run my breeding operations.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I agree it depends, but a chain in the mouth of an older, experienced horse that "knows" the routine is one thing. Putting a chain though a young horses' mouth while trying to teach them to whoa, or walk-up or ear, etc. is probably a bad idea and not going to work. Then, if this young horse was not "getting" the command and the chain was "yanked" then I would personally consider that unnecessary and cruel. But again, there are a lot of variables that could be in play here. I personally think a chain - through the mouth, over the nose, whatever - is for an older, experienced horse and used as a "reminder" of something they already know, but may feel tempted to misbehave. In the example of the draft gelding - yep, I would have used it.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

I have spent a lot of years with thorobreds and there are several that I would dare anyone to try to manage without one. I also sold a mini stallion once and he was nice as can be when he left here, but the new owner called me about a year later and said she was terrified of him. She had never diciplined him "at all"....she brought him back here....he was not abused at all, but I did manage him with the chain in his mouth until he gained back all of the manners that he had lost. There was no need for me to "yank" it and I never drew blood....just a steady pressure helped him to be a gentleman again. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it when they are used appropriately. I do however see that sometimes it is a problem when non-horse people get a horse and let it take control, fail to teach it manners and create a problem for someone else (and the horse). I do not currently have a horse on the farm that needs the stud chain in the mouth, but if I ever do get another one, I wouldn't hesitate.

 

[txminipinto]

Stud chains are like any other training aid like a bit, spurs, or a riding crop. Most horses don't need a stud chain. Some do. Some just need it under the jaw. But then there are horses that need a chain over their nose, through their mouth, or over their gum.

All of my in-hand performance horses show with a chain under the jaw. It allows me to give very fine and detailed cues when asking for manuvers in class. Most of the horses are longed with a chain under their chin to help rate them on the line. Then there are a couple that yank and drag me and have to have the chain run through their mouth to remind them to mind their manners.

Then there are the studs that require special handling during a breeding. One stud just needs his halter and no chain. One needs a chain over his nose. And then another needs a chain run over his gum and a plastic waffle bat to keep him in line.

The horses that need a more severe chain truely need them to prevent them from hurting themselves or their handler. Anyone who claims that its not needed is more than welcome to take my most rowdy horses for a walk! They are happy and healthy but would take advantage of the situation.

That all said, I would never use a stud chain to train a horse to lead. A plain halter and lead rope is all that is needed to achieve that.

 

[Psultan]

I would never use a STUD CHAIN in the mouth, gums or over the nose. I do not use a Show Chain under their chin. Now that said the show chain I use is captive so no presure on the chin. That also goes for STALLIONS and babies, LARGE HORSES or small ones.

There is no secret just work and train them thats all it takes. For breeding I will use a chain under the chin. Maybe this comes the large horses and I want to ride the and have a GOOD MOUTH.

 

[Minimor]

I have never had need to use a stud chain and have to say I think they are pointless on Miniatures. There's something wrong somewhere if any adult needs to use a stud chain on a Mini. I once got a very hard to handle 2 year old B division stallion--a solid built boy so he was plenty strong--and I didn't even have to resort to using a chain over his nose or under his chin; just an ordinary halter and rope and a couple of halter lessons and he was minding his manners very well. If I could handle him without a chain I sure don't figure I need one on any of our youngsters that we raise. I do show with a chain sometimes, but when I do I wrap it so that it doesn't tighten on the horse's jaw--it works more like a mild bumper bar than a chain.

With the Morgans I sometimes used a chain around the nose for showing but that was only on certain horses that needed a little reminder that I was in charge. I didn't ever need a stud chain on them and only once did I have to resort to a lip chain, which got used instead of a twitch--no jerking on it, just a couple of tugs to focus the horse's attention on the chain rather than on the procedure the chain was distracting from.

If the horse is one that I am using for riding or driving, I don't want the chain being put through the mouth and potentially causing damage that will ruin the horse's "good mouth".

I know some of the full size breeding stallions they use stud chains on are very rank and hard to handle--I am not going to comment on them because those are not horses that I care to handle with or without the chain through the mouth and I don't think that is what this thread is about anyway.

Yes, a snaffle bit that gets yanked on can do damage to the horse's mouth, but I try to avoid yanking or jerking on any bit when it's in the horse's mouth and I would have harsh words for any person that misused a bit on any of my horses! I have seen and heard of some things about people misusing bits--things that make me feel quite ill--there are some people that really don't deserve to be riding horses if that is the best they can handle them!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Unless you have a mini thats competely out of control you should not have to do that. If you have to then there is something seriously lacking in the training of that horse. Yes they carry bits but do you literally yank on their mouths with them? No.

 

[Marty]

Thank you Minimor from the mouth of reason, I bow to thee

I didn't think I even had a chain on the place but low and behold I did find one while cleaning my tack room and for the life of me I don't even know why its here. If someone cannot handle a miniature horse without the use of a stud chain, something is very wrong and its not with the horse. And put it in his mouth? That doesn't even begin to compute.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

In the perfect little world, no...there would never be a need for them. On the perfect farm where people imprint and the horses are trained from birth to be friendly and kind there probably is no need. But in reality if a horse is trying to eat me alive and I choose to put a chain in his mouth and let him chew on that "instead" of me, then I don't find that to be abuse...only tactful thinking. Now..if I yank on the chain and cause the horse to flip or cut his mouth until it is bleeding, then "yes" that is abuse. But the stud shank was invented down the road by someone who didn't live in the perfect world and had to actually train horses that would hurt him if he could not figure out a way to manage them. When the mini stallion came home here, he would pin his ears and run at you with his mouth wide open trying to take a plug out of me...should I have hit him in the face with a riding crop and made him head shy, or should I have put a chain his mouth to try to keep him from taking out my knees when I was walking him? I don't know the answers...all I know is that there was no just walking up and saying "now calm down fluffy"....that didn't work here. Why did the horse come back to me this way...well I will tell you....the lady fed him treats and then if he turned suddenly or pinned his ears...she ran...she told me this...he got worse and worse until he would run her out of the field when she went in with the mares. He "learned" that he could bully...and he liked it. He would bite you and rear...walk on his hind legs coming toward you and try to strike you in the face. Now...perhaps none of you have had to handle a mini that did this...but if you did...what would be "your" suggestions. I think "without pain"....just diverting his attention to something else...the stud shank helped immensely. In fact...I know it did. The horse left here a gentleman and is still one to this day...not head shy...not hurt...not scared...just trained...actually retrained.

I learned several years ago that no matter the size of the horse, there are those (especially stallions) that will test you. It is then up to you to let him know that it is "not" OK in the most tactful and reasonable manner for both of you. I have worked around horses that would "kill" you if not handled properly....yes they were big thorobred stallions and just full of steriods (once again...because that is the "real world").....I saw one attack a woman while she was holding him for his bath after his morning workout....literally got down on his knees and was mauling her like a pit bull would have...an ambulance came and got her...she was hurt badly, but survived.

That horse was very dangerous. He also had a knack for grabbing his walkers knee (jeans) and just flipping that person over backwards. This may not sound feasable to any of you...but it is all very true and a stud shank in the mouth (or even over his gum when he was at his worst) was the "only" way to manage that horse. What kept him around was that he could truly run and won lots of races. Bales of staw were placed in front of his stall so the people walking horses in the morning could not get close enough for him to lunge out and get them, because once he did and all I saw was feathers flying as he tore the sleeve right off of that girls down jacket. Thankfully she had that jacket on and it wasn't her arm that he got...oh forgot to say also that he tore a piece of a girls ear off as well. I will go even further and tell you that his name was "Steel Robbing"...he was trained by A.J. Foyt Jr. and we were stabled in barn 5A at Churchill Downs...if you all know anyone that happened to work for Tony in the mid 1980"s.....they will have no problem telling you about this horse. There were several others in that barn that would "manhandle" you....but Robbie was the worst.

I choose to have minis now at this point in my life as they are loving and docile little horses. I do not have one single horse on the farm that is hard to handle and I hope most all of you don't either....but you should never judge or "never say never" until you find yourself in a situation that you then need to try to outsmart the horse....not necessarily try to hurt it. A stud shank can be used by an "experienced" handler and never cause one bit of pain....just as a diversion of their attention.

 

[tagalong]

I choose to have minis now at this point in my life as they are loving and docile little horses. I do not have one single horse on the farm that is hard to handle and I hope most all of you don't either....but you should never judge or "never say never" until you find yourself in a situation that you then need to try to outsmart the horse....not necessarily try to hurt it. A stud shank can be used by an "experienced" handler and never cause one bit of pain....just as a diversion of their attention.

Bolding mine. Exactly right.

I have had to deal with two minis that I ended up having to use a stud chain over their noses for. And it had nothing to do with me and everything to do with THEM. It is all well and good to say you would never do this or that - until you are in a situation that may require that. The one mini stalion I had to deal with many years ago before I moved here was rank and a danger to himself and others - horses as well as humans. He needed a firm, fair correction and he blew off everything except that chain. After a while, he no longer needed it for day to day activities but ALWAYS needed one for breeding. ALWAYS. And you had to watch him like a hawk or he might snake his head around and grab you. Before you ask, no - it was not my decision to breed that one.

If someone cannot handle a miniature horse without the use of a stud chain, something is very wrong and its not with the horse.

Marty - to be fair, generalizations like that are not always true - or fair.

Not all minis are the calm, quiet horses they are advertised to be.... and I think this is where a lot of owners get into trouble. They think minis are all peaceful and mild - and let them turn into spoiled, nasty twits at times. I am happy that you have yet to encounter one like that. They're out there.

I have handled breeding stallions on Thoroughbred and Warmblood farms. One Dutch Warmblood was 17 hands of idiot - his owner thought it was "cute" the way he roared off the trailer and reared and struck out and tried to grab you. I was the lucky one who got assigned to him. He found his manners with quiet, firm and fair handling. Do I like using a chain across the gums for control on such a hot, aggressive horse? No - but I am not going to let that horse be a dangerous, obnoxious jerk, either. Once he had his boundaries set, his personality began to change and he no longer needed anything more than a chain over his nose for breeding. Another Standardbred stallion I worked with was an evil beggar who would happily take your head off. I NEVER handled him without a chain over his nose and a dressage whip in my hand. I never had to use that whip - but he knew I had it. Strangely enough, I was the only person he trusted and liked.

A stud chain used correctly and fairly in the right hands is just another tool that can be used if needed... like a twitch, a crop, a driving whip etc. Just a quiet reminder.

But all that being said, I have no idea why you would need one to teach a young horse to lead... but as the OP was rather vague, I am not sure what was going on...

 

[txminipinto]

A stud chain or bit for that matter, will not cause a hard mouth. The hands that hold those aids will.

Anyone who watched the 2yr old B stallion class at Nationals in 2008 would see a perfect reason and horse to run a chain through the mouth. A client owned stallion was literally trying to eat me alive. Pinning his ears, striking, snaking his head, and trying to grab me. And he did. He was so bad that Roger Eitel asked if I was going to be ok. People in the stands were concerned for me as heard by my best friend. I stayed and survived the class but had to take my ribbon running backwards as this horse had full intentions of jumping on my back and knocking me to the ground. He was so aggressive he was screaming as he came at me.

This incident was one of many but definately the worst and he was gelded the following week. He's now a great gelding.

That said, anyone who gets huffy and crosses their arms declaring a training aid cruel is two things:

1) Uneducated: of the equipment, horse, and situation.

2) Not a real horsemen to understand and appreciate that all horses are different, have different temperments, and require different training aids.

I wish all of the horses in my barn were calm and respectful of human space. But some aren't and like others have said, I'm not going to get hurt and try to give that animal treats and kisses to change their behavior. They are not puppies or kittens. They will hurt you if they have the mindset to decide to.

 

[OhHorsePee]

Anyone who watched the 2yr old B stallion class at Nationals in 2008 would see a perfect reason and horse to run a chain through the mouth. A client owned stallion was literally trying to eat me alive. Pinning his ears, striking, snaking his head, and trying to grab me. And he did. He was so bad that Roger Eitel asked if I was going to be ok. People in the stands were concerned for me as head by my best friend. I stayed and survived the class but had to take my ribbon running backwards as this horse had full intentions of jumping on my back and knocking me to the ground. He was so aggressive he was screaming as he came at me.

Dang it girl! I could see how catch handling could present you with a surprise horse like that and it would be dangerous. I am surprised he was awarded a ribbon but manners in the ring is a different topic. Was the particular stallion not use to the ring or just nasty?

Here we do not use stud chains or anything that might be painful as a training tool. We use repetition. Repetition is the best training aid there is IMO. But with saying that I also have to say that everyone trains differently and has different capabilities of patience or time that they allow for the training. But we are all going to have our own way of doing things and I am glad that we can all be respectful of that.

 

[Minimor]

Anyone who watched the 2yr old B stallion class at Nationals in 2008 would see a perfect reason and horse to run a chain through the mouth. A client owned stallion was literally trying to eat me alive. Pinning his ears, striking, snaking his head, and trying to grab me. And he did. He was so bad that Roger Eitel asked if I was going to be ok. People in the stands were concerned for me as heard by my best friend. I stayed and survived the class but had to take my ribbon running backwards as this horse had full intentions of jumping on my back and knocking me to the ground. He was so aggressive he was screaming as he came at me.

That isn't something I'd be bragging about especially since--if I recall rightly, and if I've got it wrong then I apologize--this wasn't a catch handle as Fran suggests, but one of your regular training horses?

I wondered at the time why any trainer would continue to show such a poor tempered/poorly trained/poorly behaved stallion, regardless of what the client/owner wanted. It doesn't do anything for 1)the horse's reputation 2)the trainers reputation or 3)the breed's reputation

 

[txminipinto]

You're right. It wasn't a catch handle but a horse that had been in my barn for 9 months. He had been shown previously by another well known trainer and was just as ornery.

Why did I continue to do it? Because just like Fran said, repetition. As a trainer, how would it look if I just threw my hands up and sent that SOB home? He came to me like that! Sent him home to a woman twice my age. He would have killed her. Plain and simple. Trainers are paid and work for clients. Most of the time we have to do what the client wishes even though we might think otherwise. I worked and worked that horse trying to establish that his behavior was unacceptable. Sometimes they are just rank. The client wanted to take that horse home after Nationals and that's when I put my foot down. I knew he was dangerous and for me to let her take him home where he would get the best of her would be unethical of me knowing his temperment. The horse, frankly, needed a straight jacket. The following week he was gelded. And he's been the best gelding.

I'm not sure how that comes across as bragging. Its not. I left that ring at Nationals in tears. Had to go to the trailer I was so upset and peeved off that he was getting to me and the better of me. And it wasn't just me. He'd eat anyone up. Bonnie Fogg even did a reading on him before Nationals and was very concerned about me. She said "Carin, he's evil. He has a black heart. You won't be able to train this out of him. He seriously wants to hurt you."

It just proves there are horses out there that need a little bit extra control. This particular stud was controllable with a chain in his mouth. But he was still testing you the entire way. If you are fortuante never to have to handle a horse like this then you are very lucky. He has probably taught me the most of what I'm willing to take on and willing to handle. My own personal stallion that I love is a bear during breeding. He's beautiful but I've decide its not worth the drama and stress and he'll be gelded in two weeks. We haven't used him much and even tried some different training with him this season. But the worry of him getting out and hurting another horse is not a responsiblity I want. We gave him a good 4 years to get control of his behavior in the ring and breeding shed. He just can't handle it. So he'll make a mighty fine gelding. But he's mine and I can make that decision at the drop of the hat. The client took some lecturing and encouragement from friends to get her to finally agree to cut the stud. I would have never forgiven myself if she hadn't because she wouldn't be here today.

But this really isn't what the OP was talking about. When training a young inexperienced horse to lead, a chain is not the way to go. Chains should be used in performance classes to help communicate the slight of hand and body position and with horses that are pushy on the lead. I never put a chain on a weanling. Not even in halter classes. They get introduced to the chain as a yearling and its an aid that's used as needed.

 

[Psultan]

Here is the way I have seen it for years that I have been around and working horses and Ponies now.

PEOPLE screw UP HORSES and PONIES.....If they would take the time and TRAIN and WORK them you will have a Horse that will be grteat to be around for adults as well as for the kids.

Someone posted on here a Stallion would charge as she went in his space.... But then says she would have to use a STUD CHAIN cuz he would eat her up.... Firts how did she catch him if he is so mean and second after catching him they use a chain in mouth or over nose...... I would want to rip someone up after all that toooo.

What I have seen in the small equine is that people do not take the same time TRAINING them as the Large ones. I think it is do to they are smaller and people can push, shove and they think cuz (people) are bigger the little ones must listen and take the punches.

 

[~Lisa~]

I do not use them as a general statement however I have. We had a 18 hand 4 yr old T/B in the barn who was the sweetest quiet Eq horse. Been shown well mannered easy going guy. I worked with him daily for a couple of years however he broke his leg one morning in turn out- actually a bone in his fetlock. He ended up fine but needed to be in 6 months stall rest with no turn out of course. After a couple of weeks he could be hand walked 2-3 times a day for no more then 5 minutes each time. Let me tell you what he was high as a kite. You can bet he used a chain over his nose- under his chin - in his mouth whatever it took to

A- keep this giant horse from landing on top of me

B- keep him under control so he did not re injure himself which could have dire consequences for him

I challange anyone here who has said they would never ever use one they did not need it to attempt to walk (without any blow ups that could shatter his leg) a 18 hand young T/B who really felt he was well enough to jump and leap and run. Not a mean bone in his body but that much time on stall rest can make even the sweetest horse untrustworthy.

By the way after a total of 6 months of stall rest and a few more months slowing bringing him back.. the following year this horse was back on the circuit as a top eq horse both on the flat and over fences. Nice feeling to know despite the bangs- bruises- and bites and risk of loss of life and limb during those last few months I was a part in bringing such a wonderful horse back and allowing him to have a wonderful and succsessful life and career.

They have their place I know people who say they would never use a crop or hit a horse either - sure most horses I do not need to do this with but yep some need a reminder every now and then.

Everyone chooses to discipline differently everyone makes choices as to what horses they can and will show - sometimes those who discipline with aids do so to a point of being cruel and sometimes those who do not discipline do so to a point of being cruel.

 

[minih]

That said, anyone who gets huffy and crosses their arms declaring a training aid cruel is two things:1) Uneducated: of the equipment, horse, and situation.

2) Not a real horsemen to understand and appreciate that all horses are different, have different temperments, and require different training aids.

I wish all of the horses in my barn were calm and respectful of human space. But some aren't and like others have said, I'm not going to get hurt and try to give that animal treats and kisses to change their behavior. They are not puppies or kittens. They will hurt you if they have the mindset to decide to.

I know exactly what the person that started this thread is referring to.......

Here is a situation we went thru, we have a taller 2 year old miniature shetland that is not allowed to breed yet and most definately wants to. He is one of the biggest pets "on the farm". You get him to a show he wants to breed anything around, including the handler. There is no "getting thru" to him and petting him into submission. It is either get control or be badly hurt and yes possibly killed in some situations.

Do you use a twitch? It is no more cruel than that in my opinion.