Spin-off of chariots -- two wheels with a pair?

[BiologyBrain]

I'm wondering about the mechanics of a chariot behind a pair verses the mechanics of an two wheeled cart behind a pair. For chariots a pair is kind of standard (isn't it? Like in Ben Hur??), but is a big no-no for two wheeled carts. Chariots have two wheels centered over the axle, right? My cart has two wheels centered over the axle too.

Could anyone explain the mechanics of the difference?

PS I have a forecart if that makes a difference. I've got exchangeable shafts and a pole for a pair. My goal is to get a pair pulling the forecart (without anything behind it initially for ease of use). I also use a neck-collar harness - not a breast collar.

 

[Performancemini]

Not sure I can explain the mechanics part of your question. Like I suggested to the other thread about chariots-contacting Bo Step of Step N High Miniatures would be a good start. He is experienced and knows a lot about chariots. My husband did it for a number of years before we had to retire the horses he did it with. He used both single and team for chariot. He personally used collar (draft) harness to do the team; but used breastcollar type for single. Mainly because that's what we had available.

As you might know, forecarts are used for teamwork. Paintedponylvr can probably answer some question on that. Check the threads on here where she shows her teams and explains what she's doing. My husband built a forecart to use for a team. They use them at our county fair for the obstacle course and the hay bale "race" for the teams. Everyone uses collar (draft) harness for it, not breast style.

Hope some of this is some help to you.

 

[horsenarounnd]

The notion that using a pair put to a two wheel cart is a common one, especially with minis. While it does present a whole set of issues that aren't present with driving a single, it doesn't have to be a huge problem if you take some basic precautions. A major concern with any horse of any size and put to any vehicle is the amount of weight you are asking the horse to carry. With a two wheeled cart and a single horse, you have the weight balanced on both sides of the horse and supported equally by the shafts. You do need to be aware of the weight of course so as not to overload your horse. But you need to be even more aware of the weight and balance when using a vehicle with a pole instead of shafts because the horse is carrying all the weight on just one side, causing an imbalance. With a 4-wheeled vehicle this is a minimal problem because the only weight carried is the weight of the pole. But, with a two-wheeled cart, chariot or fore-cart or any two wheeled cart put to a pair, you have to be very aware of the weight you are placing on your horse and how you are asking him to carry it.

If you are careful in the design of your cart, you can balance it so that you minimize that weight. You can do that by being very careful where you place your axle under your cart. By placing the weight over or behind the axle, you can get the cart to balance with a miimal amount of weight on the pole, and thus on your horse. You need to talk to someone who is experienced in the design, or experiment a lot until you have it right. Take your time and try it several times before you do your final build to make sure you have it the way you want it. Don't forget to allow for a variation in drivers, that will obviously make a big difference.

The other issue then, is the harness. As you noted, a collar harness iss usually used with this sort of set-up. That is because with a colar harness, the horse is carrying the weight on its shoulders and the load is directly above the fromt legs. The horse is substantially stronger there and thus able to carry the weight more easily than if the weight is carried on its back. (try this yourself and you will easily feel the difference)

That is also why you see a collar harness used with draft horses or horses pulling the weight of a larger vehicle. By placing the weight on the shoulders, the difficulty is much reduced. Again, try it on yourself to experience the difference.

Good luck with your driving, The only thing more fun than driving is driving a pair (or more)

 

[Al B]

Another thing to consider once you have balanced the cart is the fact that there is nothing to hold the pole down as there is with the tug straps on a single harness. This can allow the cart to tip over backwards. This can be minimized by making a hold down strap that goes from the cinch of each horse and over the pole or attached to the pole from below.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Contact kuelqhs here on the forum. He has made a few chariots himself and they all convert into single and team. The most important thing is the balance and where the weight is on the chariot. He puts in a bar inside too allow the driver to be able to brace on the bar to keep them stable and we also tested where the bar needed to be and where the axle needed to be to keep the chariot balanced.

I personally use a euro collar I bought from Chimacum Tack and most of the time thats all I drive in. But these euro collars are the closest you can get IMO to look like in the movie of Ben Hur. They are pretty expensive, probably more then what they are worth honestly, but I do like these a lot. I certaintly would try to avoide using a breast collar that you use in a regular harness.

This chariot is one that kuelqhs built.

Single

 

[paintponylvr]

I see that I was quoted here as a possible help... Honestly, I'm still learning about the balancing of cart to both single and pair.

In my case, it's more difficult simply because I use a larger forecart (Hafflinger sized) - which is longer, wider, larger tired and 100+ lbs heavier than the smaller pony sized forecart. I do use it with a pony sized tongue. It's too heavy and too long for the smaller ponies (35,36 & 37" @ withers) that I have to use as a pair - the tongue points down and weighs heavily on their necks. I am a large woman, and I can't shift my weight back far enough in the bench seat to get the forecart to tip back with them - not sure that attaching equipment (too heavy??) would help much in this case. I"ve been considering the lighter forecart pictured below - which is about 1/4th the size/weight of the farm one that I have (meant to be used for farm work).

I've noticed that different companies make a lighter style of forecart such as this one -



I did have a scare one time with this bigger forecart. I was at an event and gave a ride to the farm owner from point A to point B. He was also larger. When he got in and shifted back against the seat rest, the tongue flipped up and the whole cart tipped backwards. Boy, was I surprised as were my ponies!! Could have been a wreck - glad I'd done so much work with the girls. I hadn't even thought about that possibility at that time (had already experienced it with a single and cart w/ too loose of a wrap strap - totally freaked out that pony and ME). Glad that they were surprised but behaved - the one mare's filly was also attached to her dam.

I have been told, numerous times, that I'm wrong and very hard on my ponies using a forecart w/o equipment attached due to the balance/weight issues where the cart can tip forward/low and really weight heavily on their necks. I DO spend a lot of time checking my mares when out for extended times - collar fit. I've found several times that I really have to adjust where/how I sit near the end of a drive - especially with the ponies who aren't as fit. As they tire and/or start working with their heads/necks lower, the tongue shifts down and the cart tips more downwards. It can become a vicious circle where the cart/tongue then continually put more weight/drag on their necks.

Even my farm wagon with 4 wheels has a tongue that weighs heavily on their necks. I've been discussing putting something on it (under the tongue, attached to the wagon) to "suspend" the tongue so it's much lighter on their necks (like with a marathon carriage). I have purchased a mini tongue to use when I hook my smaller than 40" ponies to it - haven't had them hitched yet.

I just lost lots of info that I'd typed and I'll try to re-type part of it...

I noticed when I was at Nationals in 2012, that the chariots seemed to be fit to the individual horses - both singles and pairs. there were different tongue placements - seemed to depend on the axle heights, wheels and the actual build of the chariot... I had some association with chariot racing when I was a teen - sadly, the mechanical/balancing part (or driving) wasn't part of that. I could have learned much. But pictures in the Western Horseman show different tongue/axle arrangements for the big horses, too.