silver dapple genetics?

[AFewSpotsMostlyBlack]

can some one explain to me the genetics and probabilities/possibilities of sorrel pinto x with a silver dapple pinto? Mom is a deep chestnut with no hint of flaxen, Dad was a deep steel/pewter grey color with white mane and tail (though how much of that was from the pinto I don't know)

Baby is a puzzle. She was born looking like a chestnut tobiano with 'fuzz' look to her, lol. Mini babies are so fuzzy, sqqueeeeeee! The tips of her fuzz was kinda a weird whitish color like she had a halo around her, which I thought was just baby fuzz but now she has bleached out to a muddy palomino looking body color, kinda like a dun (but no dorsal or even counter shading) and is getting silvery in her mane. I'm quite confused as to what she might end up being. does silver express on sorrel? I thought I read that it didn't but where is the silver mane coming from? then while I was searching for additional info I found this "However I know of some miniature horses breeders who believe it does have a subtle affect, and that they can tell which of their chestnut horses carries silver on the basis of what they look like." on this site. So what's going on with my new little baby? I bought her yesterday and I'd sure like to know what color to call her Sorry I don't have pics of her, my camera is broken and she was a muddy mess today even if I did take pics, I'm not sure the color would come out. I won't go back to see her probably until she weans. She'll probably give me more answers by then, however, my mind is whirling with the possibilities

Thanks in advance

 

[targetsmom]

Well, we have a colt out of a silver dapple pinto mare who was bred last year to a sorrel pinto stallion, so maybe I can help. Our stallion was tested and carries agouti (but not silver) which helped in our guesses. Our foal LOOKED like a sorrel pinto (see below, next to his silver dapple dam) but he was tested to be Ee (so black based), Aa (so agouti, or in his case, bay), plus we figured he had to be silver bay to look like that - otherwise he would have been a normal bay. He also tested homozygous for tobiano!! I think you need to test yours to know for sure, but a photo might help. He could be sorrel, but he could also be silver bay like our colt if the sorrel parent carries agouti. Or he could be silver dapple....

 

[AFewSpotsMostlyBlack]

ok, so if the dam carries an agouti gene baby could possibly be silver bay? that possibility of the mare being the one carrying the bay, didn't enter my mind. The Agouti wouldn't be expressed in the dam because she's sorrel/chestnut? is that correct?

So if she's possibly silver bay, what would I want to test for first? Black? because the silver has to be on black based right? if she's ee, would you still test for silver? would it make a difference? if she's ee she'd still be considered sorrel right? Silver would only pop up if she were bred to black and baby lucked out with both Black and silver? Sorry I'm posing so many questions, just trying to wrap my head around it all. I find genetics fascinating and this is really my first encounter with silver

When I get her home I probably will eventually test her just because I'm so curious, but for now I won't get to go over and see her as often as I'd like to, she's a little over 2 months right now, it will be a few months before she comes home.

 

[targetsmom]

Agouti and silver are not expressed on any red based horse (sorrel, palomino, etc). We tested our colt for red/black (EE), agouti, and silver (yes we did test for all 3; I had forgotten when I posted before). Animal genetics was offering a deal of $40 for both EE and agouti, so we took it! I suppose you could test first for red/black because if she is ee you will know what color she is. But you still won't know if she "hides" agouti or silver unless you test for those. If both parents are tobiano pintos then I would test for that also. As we found out when Jake's minimal tobiano sister tested H/Z for it too, you really can't tell by looking.

Most testing labs will save your hair samples (be sure to pull the hair out and get the root) so you can do one test at a time, but I don't know anyone that patient!

Animal genetics also has a coat calculator to help predict what color you might get but we found it does make mistakes, even with the right information entered. And if you don't know if the sorrel is hiding silver or agouti, it can only give you wild guesses..

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

I'm pretty sure that one of my fillies from this year is a silver dunskin (probably w/sabino) even though her sire is a homozygous black smoky grulla. Her dam is a sorrel sabino with flaxen mane and tail... Even though silver does not express on sorrel, I'm wondering if sorrels with flaxen mane and tails are hiding silver... Here are a couple of pics, but they're not very good. She has a silver sheen in her mane and tail.

First pic is today, second pic she is just a few minutes old... She was born April 9th.

I've also included a pic of her dam (w/black & white mare in labor).

 

[supaspot]

I have a silver bay mare that was reg as sorrell when I bought her , she was an obvious silver bay once she shed her foal coat, Ive found its pretty common

 

[AFewSpotsMostlyBlack]

Animal genetics was offering a deal of $40 for both EE and agouti, so we took it! I suppose you could test first for red/black because if she is ee you will know what color she is. But you still won't know if she "hides" agouti or silver unless you test for those. If both parents are tobiano pintos then I would test for that also. As we found out when Jake's minimal tobiano sister tested H/Z for it too, you really can't tell by looking.

Most testing labs will save your hair samples (be sure to pull the hair out and get the root) so you can do one test at a time, but I don't know anyone that patient!

Animal genetics also has a coat calculator to help predict what color you might get but we found it does make mistakes, even with the right information entered. And if you don't know if the sorrel is hiding silver or agouti, it can only give you wild guesses..

I played with the calculator and got the wild guesses with nothing being higher than 18% (which IMO leaves too much open ) so I am probably going to do the $40 deal first, if she ends up Ee Aa then I'm really gonna have to say she's silver bay

I'm pretty sure that one of my fillies from this year is a silver dunskin (probably w/sabino) even though her sire is a homozygous black smoky grulla. Her dam is a sorrel sabino with flaxen mane and tail... Even though silver does not express on sorrel, I'm wondering if sorrels with flaxen mane and tails are hiding silver... Here are a couple of pics, but they're not very good. She has a silver sheen in her mane and tail.

First pic is today, second pic she is just a few minutes old... She was born April 9th.

I've also included a pic of her dam (w/black & white mare in labor).

Dun colts will start out with some funky colors and will change up on you a lot, I may not know silver very well but I do know what dun babies look like. They make startling changes and when they have other genes thrown in there (my experience is with creme) sometimes the babies will show one color and end up another. We once had a palomino filly born red dun and faded out to almost white til she ended up a pale pal. Grullas keep on changing with the seasons, lol.

We don't have silver as a color in QH's but I have a red dun QH who has blond/silver highlights in his hair and is basically light all over (his legs are more pale than our other duns, red and black based alike) that I've always bent a suspicious eye toward his color, lol. Does anyone know if there's something linked specifically to dun that does that or does he have a rare silver gene (rare at least for QH's)? he's red based so it shouldn't show up right? is the dun allowing it to be expressed? I'm not sure where he'd have gotten it from, his sire was coal black, tested Ee, aa and dam is a red dun who has never thrown any other silvery looking traits like his. She's a dark red dun, and most of her other colts have been red dun as well, with a few actual duns (she always throws some variation of dun)

I have a silver bay mare that was reg as sorrell when I bought her , she was an obvious silver bay once she she'd her foal coat, Ive found its pretty common

I don't know if it will be obvious on her other than in the mane, her tail is mostly white and her white goes up above her knees :/ I'm really thinking of taking a special trip to yank some hairs, lol. it's killing me to know.

I forgot I had this but found a not so great cell phone pic from a few weeks ago, she's about a month old here and hadn't really faded or started shedding yet. This is pretty much what she looked like the first time I saw her at like a week old. You can see the whitish fuzz on the mane I was talking about, well under that fuzz the actual mane is coming out just as silvery as the fuzz (I don't think it's white from the pinto her neck is mostly dark)

 

[targetsmom]

I am going to vote for silver bay...and cute..for your filly

 

[AFewSpotsMostlyBlack]

I'm starting to believe it more myself too. hmmmm, thought I was getting a sorrel, but this would be so much more cool, lol. Can't wait to see how she sheds out

 

[paintponylvr]

She is absolutely GORGEOUS!

I'd say silver "something" tobiano. My eyes are too sunburnt & ocean salted to see very well... Coming home from 4 days on the beach celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary!!

There are also now confirmed silver brown horses - QH - Champs Guthrie. He left behind a couple of purebred QH offspring and several warmblood silver carriers. APHA has confirmed several silver carriers as well - see the silver buckskin page. Hmmm, looks like all the ponies were removed from this website when it was revamped. Some of mine were not the only ones removed - 2 Welshies and some Icelandics were as well. One of the Welshies was in Canada and think he came to the US (not sure - haven't heard how he's doing lately) and the other was a mare that was in TX.

"Silver sheen" in the mane can be caused by different shades of chestnut, too. We have a chestnut Tobiano mare that we "swore" was a silver carrier... based on what appeared to be 2 silver bay tobiano colts by the same black bay tobiano stallion. Turns out the two colts have something else going on with the "funky" shading that at times makes them appear to be silver bays... The one also seems to get a flaxen mane and tail on a regular basis (kinda like the "Gulastra Plume" prevalent with arabians in bays). My colt will be tested this fall, but he is a bay not a silver bay - his dam tested eeAaTt (chestnut tobiano, bay carrier). His sire hasn't been tested (not mine) and I didn't get my colt tested before he went out to a trainer... The colt - LP Painted Mo-Olympus - or "Oly" pictured below in Oct 2012. He was born 5 May 2011.

I now own 4 solid silver mares - 2 homozygous for silver, 1 silver homozygous black homozygous Tobi stallion, one solid silver gelding (cream as well?) and 3 silver tobiano mares. From crossing some of those mares with Iggy, our stallion, we have produced - 4 silver tobiano mares, 2 silver tobiano geldings, 1 silver bay tobiano mare, 1 silver tobiano colt & 1 silver tobiano filly (2013). I also now have a granddaughter of one of the homozygous silver mares - think she's a silver buckskin - not tested. Not all of our silvers are tested yet. I have LOTS of pictures thruout our site of the different color stages of our babies and even some of the mares (the homozygous silvers fade and look like palominos!!). The silver gene horses can go thru soooo many color changes - dealing with the black coat - both homozygous for black and heterozygous for black or bay... (and how many shades of bay are there?? I have 5 bay arabs and 7 bay tobianos - each is a different shade plus each changes at different times of year with winter/summer coats and fading!)

I believe the silver filly this year is homozygous for silver (YEAHHHHH!!!!!) and could be homozygous for tobi. Almost everyone asks me about the 2 month old "white" filly in the pasture. I've attached pics of "Bunny" (1st one - 2 apr 2013 - still damp from birth; 9 may - little over 1 month old) and 2 of her full sister Flashi - one as on May 17, 2011 - she's a month old w/ 1/2 sister who is almost 3 months old and one as a long yearling last fall Oct 2012 when being shown....

The filly behind Flashi above is Wyndy. The two fillies are "cameo clipped" (what we called it when doing Arabs). You can see the difference in foal coats to where they are clipped. Wyndy stayed at home and was color tested - EEaaTnZn. Flashi and Bunny haven't been tested yet.

Hope to send off another round of color tests next week and then some more later this fall. Then should only have to do some testing on foals... if I choose to.

I LOVE all the "rainbow" shades silvers go thru!!!

 

[paintponylvr]

and to muddle the picture a lot - here is a series of photos of our silver bay filly. She's by our silver tobiano stallion and out of a bay 1/2 arab pony mare. She's a 4 year old this year and is now driving...

"Flower" and her dam "Star" - not too long after birth

21 April 2009

headshot - 20 June 2009 - 2 months old.

Aug 2009 - 4 months - NOT body clipped!

21 Aug 2012 - 3 1/2 yrs old. On pasture - NOT body clipped.

26 April 2013 - mane and tail darkened flax except where white. Winter coat shedding. Ground driving before hitching to cart at home for first time. She was sick when returned from trainer... Took 5 weeks before even tried to hitch her. Went very well, but haven't had the chance to drive her since. Want to!!! Will get more pics of her next week - mostly shed out now.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Just to point out the H/Z for Silver is not necessarily a good thing. There can be real problems with eyes in an H/Z Silver animal and, although a lot are not obviously affected, it is not something I would want. I think your pretty foal is Silver Bay.

Silver does not show on Chestnut, whatever anyone may think. It is merely coincidence when you guess right!

 

[Debby - LB]

From your description and her photo yes silver bay...is that her dam behind her? if so I think silver bay as well. Good added info. Jane Silver is beautiful, some of the most beautiful horses to me are silver bay and plain silver, LOVE the contrast of dark chocolates.. but it's not something that should be bred for or together. Anyone intending to breed, the ASD gene status of your horse is something you should know.