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Silver Chestnut or Silver Bay?

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shadyacersminis

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Somebody said something thats made me curious, I posted this mare several years ago and was told she was a Silver Chestnut and not a Silver bay.... her first foal also appears to be a silver chestnut pinto but with more red mixed in with the silvery white in his mane and tail than his mom, His sire is a Blue Roan Pintopictured in my avatar, so he is a black based stallion.... Im curious to see what everyone else thinks she and her yearling colt are....

Here is Momma





Here is her colt, You can see the silver in his mane in the bridal path



 
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Matt73

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The silver gene does not show in red-based horses; there is no such thing as a silver chestnut -unless the chestnut horse has been DNA'd to confirm the silver gene-. She is red-based. And, based on looks, is a chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail. She is definitely not a silver bay. She may have silver in her, but it won't show. But she sure is a beauty!

Here ya go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_dapple_gene
 
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Songcatcher

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The silver gene does not show in red-based horses; there is no such thing as a silver chestnut -unless the chestnut horse has been DNA'd to confirm the silver gene-. She is red-based. And, based on looks, is a chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail. She is definitely not a silver bay. She may have silver in her, but it won't show. But she sure is a beauty!
I fail to understand what makes you think she is definately "not" Silver Bay. In the first photo she clearly shows darker/smokey colored legs. She looks very typical Silver Bay to me and almost identical in color to a mare of mine who is proven Silver Bay by having produced two Buckskin colts from the Smokey Black Pinto stallion in my avatar.
 

Matt73

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The silver gene does not show in red-based horses; there is no such thing as a silver chestnut -unless the chestnut horse has been DNA'd to confirm the silver gene-. She is red-based. And, based on looks, is a chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail. She is definitely not a silver bay. She may have silver in her, but it won't show. But she sure is a beauty!
I fail to understand what makes you think she is definately "not" Silver Bay. In the first photo she clearly shows darker/smokey colored legs. She looks very typical Silver Bay to me and almost identical in color to a mare of mine who is proven Silver Bay by having produced two Buckskin colts from the Smokey Black Pinto stallion in my avatar.
Okay...maybe I'm wrong. The best way to tell is by DNA. She's not a "silver chestnut" though.
 

Joanne

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You are asking about the dam correct? Not the foal?

If so, I think it is a silver bay.

Here is the quote from Animal Genetics:

"Since the Silver Dilution gene only dilutes black pigment and does not physically alter red pigmented horses, testing red based horses will identify carriers of the Silver gene."

Testing is always the best option to know for sure. At least for those things we can test for.
 

SWA

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Hey there William!
How've ya been?

The mare looks silver bay to me, and the foal looks chestnut pinto...But then, I'm no expert.


BEAUTIFUL, both them, no matter the color.
 
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shadyacersminis

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I dont want any fights to start over this, I have been looking through several websites and there seems to be a big conflict over this topic, Some sites say it exists and shows and some say it cant be shown on red pigmented horses.... The more ive been looking into this the more im starting to think maybe she is a chestnut w/ flaxen like matt73 posted..... From all the pics Ive been looking at, she highly resembles the classic Chestnut w/ flaxen, from her lineage, she has alot of chestnut horses in it, If she were a bay, Bay is a dominant and chestnut is recessive... Since she was bred to a Black based sire, and her foal seems to be chestnut, I get the impression she is red based.... It really dosent matter much to me what she really is... I was just curious to see what everyone would say now compared to back then..... and try to get a better idea what she is..
 

Songcatcher

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I don't think anyone means to start a fight, just stating opinions. Colors of Minis listed in pedigrees are notoriously wrong in many cases. Back when there was no way of testing, people listed according to phenotype (what it looks like). With the development of genetic testing for many colors, we now know that many of those were mis-labled and now know what characteristics to look for. Throwing a Red based foal from a Black based stallion only means that both the mare and stallion have a recessive Red gene. Just like the stallion in my avatar. He is Black with a recessive Red gene and also carries Cream. I get far more Palominos from him than I do Blacks.
 

Matt73

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William, she is gorgeous whether she is chestnut, silver, black, chinese etc. LOL. Here's my silver bay for reference. I was unsure about him at one time too:

 
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Minimor

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She looks very typical Silver Bay to me and almost identical in color to a mare of mine who is proven Silver Bay by having produced two Buckskin colts from the Smokey Black Pinto stallion in my avatar.
I have to point out that this in itself doesn't prove your mare is a silver bay. She could very well be a chestnut that carries agouti! The black base on the two buckskin foals could have come from their sire. If you'd bred her to a palomino and got two buckskin foals (or even one)--THAT would prove your mare is a silver bay.
 

Songcatcher

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She looks very typical Silver Bay to me and almost identical in color to a mare of mine who is proven Silver Bay by having produced two Buckskin colts from the Smokey Black Pinto stallion in my avatar.
I have to point out that this in itself doesn't prove your mare is a silver bay. She could very well be a chestnut that carries agouti! The black base on the two buckskin foals could have come from their sire. If you'd bred her to a palomino and got two buckskin foals (or even one)--THAT would prove your mare is a silver bay.
I stand corrected. You are indeed correct. However, there is no doubt in my mind that she is Silver Bay.
 

Shari

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They are both a nice chestnut.

There is a lot of miss information out on the internet about what is a Silver bay. People just don't really know.

Here is what I tell people.

If it is Silver Bay, it will clip out a shade of grey. They are born with Black around the Eyes.

If it is Chestnut, it will clip out a shade of Pink. They are born with Red or pink around the eyes, which will turn blk anywhere between a day to a couple of weeks..depending on their Genes.

I have had a number of Silver Bays and Chestnuts over the years. Have learned over time to tell the difference.

Maggie is a medium Liver Chestnut and has Blk in her Mane and Tail... some Liverspots here and there but she is not a bay. Though some people tend to want to call her the latter.

Silver totally hides in Chestnuts. This happens a lot within the Icelandic Breed.

You can test for it.

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php
 

Margo_C-T

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OK, I have a question for all of you...in both the two photos the OP posted of the DAM, and the two photos Jill posted of her gelding--one clipped pic, and one natural winter coat pic---IF I had seen ONLY the clipped pic of either horse, I'd have ID'd it as a silver bay-BUT, if I had been shown ONLY the natural winter coat photo of each horse, I might well have said they were each 'only' a chesnut/sorrel, albeit w/ flaxen M/T---this because the 'telltale' slate grey on the lower legs of a silver bay simply isn't visible in the 'winter hair' photos...am I the only one who sees it this way?

I have three horses that are undoubtedly silver bay. My matriarch mare is a 'medium' red in natural coat, w/ lightening in her flanks)-Agouti?I'm not sure; I don't 'study' this color stuff as many do---but she DEFINITELY has a grey undercoat; she was registered by AMHA as a chestnut in 1982. My AMHR B mare was registered in 1993 as a palomino!--and she IS more 'golden' in tone, BUT, she is definitely a silver bay by definition-slate grey lower legs, definite silver in the base of the hairs of the mane-and, also, a grey undercoat. My old Pinto gelding's color spots are VERY DEEP red, and he has white clear 'up' all four legs, so no clues there, BUT, where his mane and tail are crossed by color, it is CLEARLY SILVER....and, he was registered by AMHA in 1986 as a chestnut pinto.

Three horses, three very DIFFERENT tones/shades of color--yet all silver bay. It is really no wonder that there is STILL a lot of confusion in correctly describing miniature horse color! The registries aren't too helpful, because their terminology often lags so far behind newer knowledge--but when horses have been first registered as foals, often unclipped, it is not hard to see why stated color is so often incorrect.....

I agree that the dam in the photos is a silver bay; honestly, not sure about the foal, but surely "looks like" 'just' a sorrel to me-but as I said, I don't study this stuff. One thing I do think--that there is ALWAYS the exception to the rule!

Margo
 

chandab

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a mare of mine who is proven Silver Bay by having produced two Buckskin colts from the Smokey Black Pinto stallion in my avatar.
Sorry, but that doesn't prove silver bay, only that the mare has the agouti (bay) gene, which red-based horses can carry without it showing as agouti does not affect red.
 

Songcatcher

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a mare of mine who is proven Silver Bay by having produced two Buckskin colts from the Smokey Black Pinto stallion in my avatar.
Sorry, but that doesn't prove silver bay, only that the mare has the agouti (bay) gene, which red-based horses can carry without it showing as agouti does not affect red.
Yes, that fact was already acknowledged in post #12. My goof. :DOH!
 
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chandab

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a mare of mine who is proven Silver Bay by having produced two Buckskin colts from the Smokey Black Pinto stallion in my avatar.
Sorry, but that doesn't prove silver bay, only that the mare has the agouti (bay) gene, which red-based horses can carry without it showing as agouti does not affect red.
Yes, that fact was already acknowledged in post #12. My goof. :DOH!
After I posted then I saw the other post about it.
 

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