Shetland Convention info

Discussion in 'Pony Talk' started by txminipinto, Nov 12, 2007.

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  1. Nov 13, 2007 #41

    kaykay

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    Thanks for answering Adam. I do know what a tough position the judges are in [​IMG] !!

    But dont you really think that if someone showing in the wrong class just got the gate (doesnt even have to be excused) they would stop doing it? Or maybe I am naive LOL. that could definitely be!!!
     
  2. Nov 13, 2007 #42

    alongman

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    Kay -

    People have very fragile egos. All it takes is one comment to make someone question their involvement. Throw in the negativity heard from seasoned exhibitors (especially if they don't agree with the placings) and it is questioned even more. I have seen it here. New people asking whether or not it's worth it. Believe me, IT IS! I love every aspect of the horse shows from judging to showing to everything in between (cleaning barn included).

    What I'm saying, is it is easy for people to place blame when things don't go exactly as they seem. Whether that be a Classic showing in a Foundation class and placing, whether that be the 35" mini showing in the 34" class. MY JOB IS TO JUDGE THE HORSES IN FRONT OF ME! I look at the horses, look at the standards and make an educated opinion. If people are upset because an off-type horse was in the class or one that didn't meet some other standard, then that falls back on the exhibitors, not ONLY the judges!

    To clarify - yes, an off-type horse can and should be penalized. BUT, that doesn't necessarily mean that it won't place. Here is the system I use to judge, maybe it will help with my explanation.

    Let me also say here that many of the horses showing are not BLATENTLY off-type, but questionable. So there is some discrepency there.

    When each horse enters the class, it is given a score of 10. I break the horse down into parts (head, neck, shoulder, chest, barrel, rear, topline, legs, movement (in shetlands), level of brightness and overall appearance based on the standard). For each thing, the horse can loose a point(s).

    If a "questionable" horse comes in the ring - I can use my own mare as an example. She is foundation papered, but EXTREME for a foundation. Even if the judges drop a couple of points (lets say she now gets an 8) due to her level of extremeness, she is still quite possibly better than some of the other animals in the class (or possibly all of them based on the class). Since she is questionable, she can still technically place right?!

    The rest of the class places themselves based on their points "lost" during their showing. Every horse starts the class on equal terms and loses points throughout the class.
     
  3. Nov 13, 2007 #43

    kaykay

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    Adam thanks so much again for taking time to answer my questions!! (maybe I should have done a new thread) I am so fascinated by seeing it from a different point of view. Wish you lived closer and we could have coffee and I could really pick your brain LOL.

    For sure I understand on the questionable ones, because there truly are ones that fall between.
     
  4. Nov 13, 2007 #44

    alongman

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    Go ahead.....I love to answer questions and explain. I would so much rather have people talk to me to find out why I feel the way I do (in or out of the ring) as opposed to making snide comments. Feel free to PM me if you want, and my phone is always on.... [​IMG]
     
  5. Nov 13, 2007 #45

    Lmequine

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    Thanks for sharing your judging system with us Adam. I think by breaking down into points how you look at a pony that makes is easier for an exhibitor to know what is going through the judges mind. I show a good many foundation ponies. For the most part they do well. I have some that do push the extreme for foundation type but when put next to the winning classics they certainly carry more bone and less extreme necks, etc. I have shown some VERY foundation type ponies this season that have excellent conformation and those ponies have by in large WON their classes and many judges have told me "thank you" for bringing up a nice foundation to judge that meets type and has great conformation.

    For those of you with true foundation ponies, please continue to bring them to the shows so the judges DO have a choice in the class. Extremes will continue to be shown in all classes because we all see things differently. What is average in my barn may be seen as extreme to others and vise-a-versa. Foundations seem to get the most talk about "showing off type" but I have seen extremes in classics and modern pleasures ponies all season. I have seen judges place those very beautiful animals down in a class because of being extreme. I was told early in the season one of the yearling foundation ponies I was hauling was too extreme by a judge. I moved this pony up to the classic division.

    I have hauled 20 different ponies to 18 shows across 8 states this season. I have been showing Shetlands since 1999. I can say overall this season is the best judging I have seen especially in the modern pleasure and foundation divisions. Judges seem to be more comfortable in picking the correct type and penalizing those that are off type. Things are getting better eventhough to some it may not seem that way to some.
     
  6. Nov 13, 2007 #46

    Lmequine

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    Last year there was also only two days between the World show and Congress according to the dates listed in the Journal.
     
  7. Nov 13, 2007 #47

    alongman

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    Leah -

    First, thank you for coming and bringing out the ponies you did! I had the pleasure of judging Leahs' show string and she presents some very very nice animals. I love, however, that you comment that you note some of your animals are extreme for their division. It's important as exhibitors to recognize that fact - if you don't place as well as you hoped, it may be for that reason. Second, thank you for noting that the only way the judges can become more confident and have the choice to pick "on type" horses is IF THEY ARE THERE!!!!

    Can I also share a point? I think that some people have decided that Foundations are somehow lesser quality than the Classics of today. I overheard several people talking about "putting their horses in the Foundation classes as the Classic classes were just too tough." I think that is a HUGE misconception. There are differences, yes! Lesser quality, NO NO NO!!!!
     
  8. Nov 14, 2007 #48

    Lmequine

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    Thank you for the nice comments. I was lucky to have a very nice showstring for this season and to have ponies of all types showing. I too am starting to hear from other breeders and exhibitors that foundation ponies are not the way to go, they are too course and chunky and not the way the breed should go breeding wise and are of less quality. They all seem to think that tons of refinement and lots of action at the trot is what Shetlands are all about. MANY of my foundation and even classic halter show ponies go on to careers as RIDING ponies. Lots of trot and lots of refinement really equals a bad ride!

    I hall of famed a pony this year as a modern pleasure. He is foundation sealed and met the height requirements. He was shown by his TYPE and not by his papers. Trainers and owners need to learn the types and show accordingly. As an exhibitor if you place low in a class and do not understand why then stick around to the end of the show and ask the judge. I have learned so much by doing that and by also watching the other classes at the shows. Granted we are not all going to agree with every judge but keep an open mind when you go to a show, realize that you are paying for one person's educated OPINION for that day only against the competition that was in your class.

    Now all of that said I do not know how we got so far away from Convention news and onto Shetland type! But I have enjoyed the discussion.
     
  9. Nov 15, 2007 #49

    dmk

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    Actually NO her information was not incorrect. The information I relayed to Carin is that the board voted on ONE location - for or against. The other locations were discussed.

    Michelle

    Belinda

    Jim Curry stood up and did speak for the idea or at least points he could see as positive. I was in the meeting and I do not recall anyone reading the 3 page proposal in its entirety. I do recall the discussion and that the proposal was presented. Carin asked me if the ENTIRE proposal was read and I do believe it was read exactly as written . . . at least according to the information I had from Carin. I did not see the proposal myself so I can't speak to that - only answered what I was asked.

    Michelle

    To me this seems paradox. The #'s and the pocketbook will BOTH be affected if the organization continues to move the Congress farther EAST.

    Michelle

    Lisa I must agree with you on this one. It was quite evident in the meetings that at times there was mass confusion over what was being discussed - on which side to vote (for or against) because of how the proposal was worded and many times there was the general air of wanting to get on with it - so to speak. Scheduling is an issue so there is not always time to discuss topics fully. There MUST be a better way in order to allow us to make more informed choices on certain issues.

    Michelle
     
  10. Nov 16, 2007 #50

    ownedbyapony

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    Michelle,

    Here is the quote from Carin that I responded to. I didn't know that you had been the source of Carin's information and just responded to her initial post.

    Carin's quote:

    I also heard that the Congress location in Cloverdale was the ONLY one presented. Makes it kinda of hard to make an informed choice for the entire registry with only one option.

    I answered that there were several sites "presented" to the board and discussed. I was in the meeting and listened to ALL of the presentations. Tracy Slagle "presented" the Lincoln site to the board. Doloris "presented" the Duquoin site to the board and Bud "presented" the Indiana and Ohio sites to the board.

    Your quote:

    Actually NO her information was not incorrect. The information I relayed to Carin is that the board voted on ONE location - for or against. The other locations were discussed.

    You are correct in the fact that the board voted on 1 location after a motion was received to "Move the Congress location to Indiana", all sites were "presented" and discussed. At any time prior to the nomination to move to Indiana a nomination to move to Lincoln or any other site could have been made. No such motion was introduced.

    I was just clarifying with Carin that there were other sites "presented" to the board.

    As to your quote:

    To me this seems paradox. The #'s and the pocketbook will BOTH be affected if the organization continues to move the Congress farther EAST.

    I understand your concern with the location being moved further East. Your trip is long. I have made the trip to Glen Rose several times in the past couple of years and I do not enjoy the drive. I do however, enjoy the show and will continue to travel to Texas. However, the move to Indiana is very close to the Rantoul mileage for people from the East and those from the South. I realize West Coast is an issue, but for that matter a move to Lincoln would be a concern for those on the East Coast or those from Florida (and we have as many from Florida as we have from Washington State). There is no way the board will be able to please everyone.

    There was no talk about making the Indiana site a permanent location. I am sure the board will continue to entertain new sites and locations in the future.

    Amber
     
  11. Nov 16, 2007 #51

    dmk

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    I understand Amber - that is the reason I clarified it because many people seemed to be under the assumption the board voted AGAINST Lincoln, but I wanted people to understand there was never a motion regarding Lincoln as a possible facility. For the Lincoln site to be voted on, it would have required a board member to bring that to a vote - not someone simply presenting information or sitting in on the meeting. Isn't that correct?

    I want to share some of my feelings and revisit something that I mentioned last night. I actually wrote this last evening, but decided to wait and post after I had some time to think about it. I do not want it to sound as if I want special consideration be given to one or the other locations because that is where I AM. In a way I do, but the location in Lincoln was still 13-14 hours away from me so that is not asking for much for MYSELF. And I do like Lincoln, but I could have settled easily for something more east than - but NOT THAT FAR east.

    Three things actually:

    #1 - In regard to Congress location and what was posted about the directors looking at the #'s & cost. I would like to clarify that I do NOT believe the directors need to sit down and discuss who will or won't come to Congress. That can never be a sure thing. Family obligations, illness and a multitude of other things might influence a person to travel the distance (whatever the mileage) to Congress in a particular year.

    #2 - I asked in the OPEN MEETING when the proposals were being made WHAT the cost of the facility in Indiana would be. It was stated that they would rather NOT disclose that figure. The facility for Lincoln came in at around $34,000 (and is MUCH nicer & bigger (and air conditioned) than Gordyville). The Gordyville facility was renting for approx. $32,000. IF it is true the board set a cap of $25,000 for a facility, how did the Indiana facility JUST HAPPEN to come in for that figure?

    Since the board set a cap of $25,000 and the board knew there were other proposals coming in from other member(s) (not board members) did they share the fact of the cap to those members submitting proposals? It certainly would have saved some people a lot of time and energy and made us feel less slighted. I have no problem if we're all on the same playing field, but it certainly didn't feel like that to me.

    #3 - Maybe the numbers will be there in Indiana - maybe not. Maybe some people will think it is just too far. And that will affect the $$$$. When choosing a location for Congress I feel the board should have looked at where their bigger number of exhibitors are. Look at the numbers on the club website - go to show results and then ASPC results and choose to look at the numbers by show. Then look down that list and see the numbers of ponies showing throughout the season and where those shows are. Just an FYI - Glen Rose, TX in April had 93 ponies. In June they hosted the Area V show and had 110 ponies. Oregon Gold show had 84 ponies. The Corsicana, TX shows had 64 & 54 ponies. The Ada, OK shows had 48 & 49 ponies. THE WORLD SHOW in Columbus, OH hosted 119 ponies last July - 9 more ponies than our area show. Okay so maybe Lincoln wouldn't have been the choice but somewhere with a little more consideration given to somewhere much MORE reasonable to that population.

    In conclusion (finally) - the Congress location is Cloverdale, Indiana in 2008 which I am most unhappy about & I shared that with Belinda before the vote. There are many other people in this area of the country that feel the same or at least that is what they indicated to me by their statements when they have heard the location. We all realize how long the travel is for people in Florida and California or other parts West. We all realize where the hub of the industry is, but some regard needs to be allowed for those numbers that are on the upswing in other areas of the country. This information should play a pretty significant part in the decision making when it comes to location. And this is the biggest FACT of them all - If it is $$$ & #'s you want then at some point I feel that we must face the fact we must have a little concession on location.
     
  12. Nov 16, 2007 #52

    Belinda

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    Michelle ,

    First let me clear something up about the price of the Facility.. THE BORD DID NOT SET THE CAP !! The Facility when they gave us their bid set "THEIR CAP AT $25,000 ". The board let me once again say did not set the Cap !

    Next I sat here last night and one by one counted the exhibitors that showed at Congress. Here is what I came up with . Area's 1* 2*3* & 4 had 80 exhibitors.. Area 5 , 6, 7 & 8 had a total of 49 exhibitors.. Now this is actual people who owned horses at Congress, I do understand several, more tham likely had horses with trainers from other area's , Just as I train for people in Area 2 , and I know that Amber Trains for people in Area 5... There were two Directors from Area 6 that sat right there and could have brought Lincoln up for a vote, but did not..

    I as a director did talk to lots of people from my area ,and Michelle I did talk with you and the group at that table , just as much as your group wanted Lincoln, there were people in Area 5 , which includes Ok, New Mexico and Arkansas, that did NOT want it to go to Lincoln , and really there were more that did not want Lincoln.. :DOH! And I told those I would vote with cost in mind first..!! It was no further for me to one or the other .. So I actually did not care in that respect........I VOTED WITH WHAT I THOUGHT WAS BEST FOR THE SURVIVAL OF CONGRESS . It is not a easy Task being a Director as I have found out because at times you will just be wrong regardless of what you do .. I try very hard to represent what my area members want, and at the same time do what is in the best interest of the Assoc. And believe me there are lots of times those two things have a big Conflict and then when your area is divided on a issue well there you go , But I feel that the board did the right thing for the good of the ASPC/AMHR.

    Thanks for listening.
     
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  13. Nov 16, 2007 #53

    dmk

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    Belinda - thank you for responding and THANKS for stopping and discussing this at our table at Convention. I understand that NO director brought up Lincoln for a vote. I understand the numbers regarding exhibitors also. But I think that the number of exhibitors is a pretty fair indication of WHERE the Congress is located. I am basing my questions and thoughts on where the ponies are showing around the country - NOT who exhibits at Congress as that is an unfair assessment IMO - naturally if you held the Congress in Texas you would have more exhibitors from Texas, Oklahoma, perhaps Arkansas and then from the West, etc.

    I have absolutely no problem with you voting your conscience and I hope you don't take this as a criticism of you because that is not what I intended. I can honestly say that you have ALWAYS listened to anything I've brought to you and I have tried to encourage more people to go directly to the source rather than talking around about things. I am only trying to present MY opinion (& maybe sway yours in the process [​IMG] ). Of course you can never please us all and I understand that you represent people from other states as well.

    But I respectfully stand firm on my opinion. The numbers of ponies exhibiting around the country should have a BIG influence on further decisions regarding locations IF people are truly wanting the Congress to grow. Obviously the numbers are pretty much the same in the last few years - numbers have been slightly (emphasis slightly) down the last two. There MIGHT be a solution to that if some people are willing to think outside the box and really take a look at where people are exhibiting ponies across the country - those are the people I would HOPE you want to draw to Congress. And I did say that Lincoln is maybe not going to be the choice - if there is another facility that is more satisfactory to the people who have historically shown at Congress YET concedes a small measure of regard to the growing # of exhibitors in other areas, I can live with that. I just don't feel this location does that. And I also feel that when the times comes for a decision such as this there should be a committee formed to gather, sort through and present the options in an unbiased forum.

    One other question - how long will that cap be guaranteed once we get into the facility in Indiana - one year? It was a heck of a deal and one that practically guaranteed our signing IF what you're looking at is cost only.

    Belinda you are always telling us to talk to you and tell us what we think - that's something you may not want to ask ME again!! [​IMG] ( [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]) But thank YOU for listening and for answering my questions and concerns!

    Michelle
     
  14. Nov 16, 2007 #54

    Belinda

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    Michelle,

    I will welcome your questions, suggestions or comments anytime [​IMG] As with anyone in or out of our Area.. I am not sure why some feel ,that their Directors will not listen..... [​IMG] If they don't then that is wrong..

    As for how long Indiana set the cap , I have not seen the contract. I am sure our Attorney who is going over the contracts will ask that . And when I know I will let you know , not sure when that will be.. [​IMG]

    So I guess we can sit here and [​IMG] this point all day , but I must go to work, Have a whole new group of horses to get started for the new show season.. Think that is what I like best about the end of the year, is starting the next one.. [​IMG] [​IMG] I know must be crazy.. Got to be to keep doing this at my age..

    Oh and by the way for those not at Convention , I have new Name,, NANA !! Yes I have joined the ranks of being a grandmother [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] but now the shock is over I am loving it.. Another little horse person in the making .. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. Nov 16, 2007 #55

    hhpminis

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    Hey Nana! Glad you are happy about this and over the shock. Guess you will be shopping for a new leadline outfit in a year or so.

    As far as the location of Congress. When I went to convention, I was really hoping for Lincoln. What I had read and been told sounded great and to be honest, I was being a bit biased as it truly was quite a bit closer for me to go to Lincoln. A whole day to be exact. After hearing people speak both at the meeting and casually around a table at night, I found that several, even some that it would be a very short drive, did not think much of the facility.

    Business is a subtle blend of practicality and bean counting. Beings that Congress needs to run on a very tight budget it only makes sense that we would first look at dollars. 25,000 is quite a bit lower than any other facility quoted. Push come to shove, the ones that go now will more than likely go no matter where it is held. I honestly do not think we will lose many by moving. We will gain a few as well. Would we gain more if we were in Lincoln? Who knows, I do think a few more west coast people would go. Probably amount to 10 more ponies from our region, (Washington State). Would 10 ponies make up a 7000 dollar difference? Hardly, would 50 ponies make up the difference? Just about. Can we promise 50 ponies if we move????????

    I plan on attending Congress this year, not sure yet if I will bring ponies or just come and help out but I see the industry growing and the popularity of the ponies growing again. Changes are slow, and who knows what next year will bring.

    I do know that for years, we showed minis is Columbia, it was not the greatest facility, but we showed there none the less. We did not get to move to a new facility until we were literally busting at the seams and could not possibly fit another portable stall on the property. When I first started going to Mini Nationals, I think we had about 500 entries at the most. I remember the year we broke 1000. We were still at Columbia then. We now are in a beautiful facility and we have on a regular basis more than 1500 horses there. I believe this year was 1680 or something like that.

    Lets all keep working on breed promotion and work towards busting the seams on these facilities that are presented. Who knows where we will be in a couple years. I have only owned ponies for about 5 years, showed my first pony last year. Some of these people in the heart of pony country have been doing it their whole life.

    I think the board made the best decision with the information they had. It was discussed in depth at the committee meeting and the board took them all into consideration before placing the motion on the table. It is where it is this next year, if you want it different next year get out there and beat the brush and come up with a proposal that the board cannot say no to.
     

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