She's so LAZY sometimes!

[rbrown]

My mare Skip is driving me nuts. She has no "go" when I'm working her in the arena. She has no problem moving out on the trails or in our neighbor's large, fenced-in pasture, but getting her to respond to forward cues in the indoor is taking way too much encouragement on my part! I'm always switching up our routine in the indoor- we do cones, lots of groundwork, etc., so she's not just going around in circles, and I only work her in the indoor about once a week- otherwise I'll take her walking/jogging on the trails, or we'll drive in the pasture. When we're in the pasture, she'll respond to my voice and I hardly ever have to use the whip (she doesn't get hot or crazy- she just listens well and has no problem going forward), but it's becoming a drag to drive in the arena. The footing isn't too deep, the cart doesn't sink (it's a well balanced wooden road cart and shouldn't be too heavy for her- she's a big, strong 39" girl), so I don't think that's the issue- she's also lazy when I ground drive her or lunge her in the arena. I even got her a freedom collar, thinking she might be resisting moving forward into the straight breastcollar (it did help free up her shoulders, but she's still as lazy as ever!). I would love to just drive outdoors at the neighbor's place all the time, but it takes me forever to haul the cart over, then bring the horse, then drag everything back (plus there often isn't anyone there to help if something went wrong, so I usually only go if there's someone to watch me).

I'm just not sure what to do with her. I know that she is capable of moving out- my barn owner says she's always running around in her paddock, and she does move out very well when I take her out in the pasture. I don't think harness fit is the issue- she's lazy on the lunge as well as when I'm driving and ground driving (and I don't use an overcheck or sidecheck, so her head/neck isn't being restricted). I am thinking she might just be bored in the arena, but I try to keep it interesting for her- I set up cones courses, fun obstacles to play with when I'm working with her on the ground- and I never drive her indoors for more than half an hour. She's also just generally difficult to get moving- sometimes she stops and doesn't want to keep going when I'm walking her to the neighbor's, or doesn't want to walk at a decent pace when I take her for walks down the back roads. The only places she seems to work well in is the pasture and the trails, but I really need to be able to drive her in the arena for those days I can't get to the neighbor's! I'm also frustrated because I really want to work on bending, or tracking up, or better contact when I'm in the indoor, but instead all of my energy goes toward keeping her moving forward.

I've never had this issue with my other mini mare, so I'm not sure how to deal with Skip. Using my whip doesn't seem to phase her- giving her a tap on the rump will get her to move for a few strides, but then she quickly loses energy. I don't want to nag her, and I don't want to be constantly using my whip. Any advice would be much appreciated

 

[Becky Horat]

Sounds A LOT like what we're working on with our young gelding. This was the main issues I was asking Clay Maier for help. This is what we're doing....and so far, it's helping. Clay says you have to create a good work habbit...."requiring" moving out a neccesity. Staring on longe line and then long lining.....don't allow that lazy attitude and pace. Sammy was doing the same thing....would "die" at the trot if I didn't keep nagging him. I was concerned that the more constant nagging, clucking, would create the habbit of him only moving while I was nagging. On longing, I am now not allowing him to drag on. If he doesn't respond, I make my whip cue count. I'm not beating on him...but I have popped him a few times to show I mean it. I encourage a lot of long trotting on the long side of arena....with me trotting along side of him encouraging. Lots of praise. And when dropping to a walk....do NOT allow him to creep along. I now require him to walk out nicely immediately after coming to walk. It's working. Lots of cone work and figure eights are great for long lining as well. As we're turning, I make sure he continues that same impulssion through the turn as well. Sammy does the same thing....enjoys working out of the arena where there is something to look at and not be bored. I think some is conditioning physical as well. I am concentrating on gradually increasing the time on longing that he's moving out at a nice trot. I was worried that he wouldn't last the whole hour at our clinic last weekend. He did fine.....I think I'm just expecting him to NOT make it. But, I've worked hard on him....and I'm seeing an improvement....even in cart. Another thing I've added is doing some halter obstacle stuff and even added a little jump to longe him over....nothing major, but just to make things more interresting. He's not very atheletic in the jumping part, but I think he sort of enjoys it....it's a pretty low jump. Good luck.

 

[Sandee]

Wow, my (now) gelding is the same way and always has been. The only one I've seen him respond to is the trainer that broke him to drive. Sure wish I could get the same response. Hope you find a fix and share it. If there's a pill or something let us know, my boy sure needs something.

 

[rbrown]

LOL Sandee- the other day a friend and I were joking about giving her coffee before I take her out for a drive!

Becky, that makes sense. I don't let her do her lazy walk, or stop without me asking her to- you'd think eventually she'd just realize that it's easier for her to keep moving until I say stop. When she starts getting lazy, I use my voice cues, then tap her with the whip and repeat the cue, then if she still hasn't responded I give her a smack- and sometimes she still ignores me! I know that she feels the whip, even through all that hair, and it really is a smack (as you said, I'm trying to make it count!). I know that in theory, horses are supposed to realize that they better move the first time you ask, else they're going to get a zinger with the whip, but it's like Skip doesn't care. Part of her issue might be conditioning as well- it takes her about 1/2 hour of walking and trotting and a bit of hillwork in the pasture before she starts to get tired... but since I'm only at the barn a few times a week, she's only being worked a few times a week... probably not enough to really get her in decent shape. That's probably another part of the problem- just not enough consistent work. It's a 2 hour round trip, and on weekdays, by the time I'm done with work, I'd be sitting in traffic for a good hour and a half before I'd get there

I just discovered that she LOVES to jump when we came across a fallen tree on the trails- after we hopped over it, she turned around and wanted to go over again, silly girl! Too bad she can't be that excited when she sees the cart come out!

 

[set2go]

Might I add another suggestion. Have a session every so often of doing different stuff. Can be done in a halter, good when time is short. Train some behaviours on cue such as walk backwards, halt, now walk forwards and touch a target (use a small cardboard disc anything that the horse can touch with its nose. Then reward (I find my twosome love to be scratched on the wither area) . You set the criteria, (do it fast, do it slow) reward the ones you want. Train turn of the forehand and turn on the haunches, and get it on cue.

Put out some boards/discs in the arena, horse walks to the first one, trots to the second one, stops at the third one, then backs up. Halt stand for 30 seconds. Circle left, circle right, now go straight. Make up a course of different requirements, slow and faster speeds. Variation, stimulates the brain, can switch on a lazy horse. Reward well, half an hour zooms by, tired handler, tired but stimulated and interested horse. Treats and pats and scratches, use voice cues. It is still work and also a bit of light fun. Works well for me, I have 2 enthusiastic players. Just a thought. .

 

[rbrown]

Oh yes, I should have mentioned that I do obstacles with her- I've never driven her twice in a row, so if we're not driving, out in the woods, or on a walk down the road, we're probably doing obstacles! She really likes obstacles- jumping, hula hoops, pushing the huge inflatable ball, standing on pedestals, she'll sidepass on cue, etc. She is a curious horse, so she's always interested in whatever we're doing, but she really likes to stand there and play with the obstacles. She wants to sniff, lick, and chew on everything before we actually use it as an obstacle, and I let her- I personally think it's better for her to thoroughly examine objects she's not sure about, otherwise she has a hard time focusing on what I want her to do because "that might be a monster and I'm going to keep my eye on it, just in case it tries to eat me!" ... either that, or she's totally fooled me into thinking she needs that time to process when she's actually just escaping from doing work!

And I should also add that she's fairly green- I think she's been driving for almost 2 years now. I didn't train her, but I know her trainer said she gets lazy. They were using her in a pair, and she was the one who never wanted to pull her weight!

 

[Jetiki]

Teach her a march, meaning a good tempo walk, and I use Work, for a working trot, trot on for faster work, and jog for slow work.

How varied is the terrain that you are driving on when out in the field? Just grass? is if flat or rolling or what? Do you do transitions out in the field or just let her pick her own speed?

Don't let her make the decisions, that has to come from you. When I tell my horse trot, I say Midget Work, that means a working trot, and to maintain that speed until I tell her otherwise. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.

She may not have the muscle stamina to maintain the speed in the arena vs the grass. depending on her condition

I use Hup for a verbal half halt. I use it before downward transitions or when I need their attention. especially useful in hazards.

 

[rbrown]

Jetiki, yes, she does have verbal cues for different "speeds" that her trainer gave me, and I use those. I want her to be maintaining whatever speed I ask for until I tell her otherwise, but she's just not getting it. Maybe she just needs more time and consistent work- I've only had her here with me since October (she's been driving for about two years now, if I remember correctly). The biggest issue for me is that it's not just little reminders to keep moving- I have to use my whip almost every time, and I think she's definitely getting desensitized to it.

The field is grass, and hilly/sloping- there is a hill running through the middle of the pasture with fairly flat areas on both ends of the pasture. The hill is big enough that she does have to work to pull us up the hill. She goes along so well in the field that I end up doing a lot of work with her there versus just cruising around- big circles, transitions, etc. She does have a bit of trouble staying at the same speed... almost like she doesn't quite know how to settle into a good rhythm yet (I think this is a BIG part of it... now that I think of it, LOL.. I am thinking lunge work might help with this?).

I was also thinking that she might just be having more trouble pulling the cart in the arena, but she's the same exact way when I'm ground driving or lunging her there- no energy. The outdoor arena has deep (for a mini) sand footing, so we don't spend much time there, but the indoor has some sort of non-sand, firm footing that the cart doesn't sink in.

 

[Jetiki]

Get a metronome or music with a really good beat that you like and play it, they will pick up on the rhythm and it helps to get them regulated into a steady trot. I found a free one for my android phone. One upper level CDE competitor told me they play lady gaga when they go out to work because of the beat, gets the horses in rhythm they drive a 4-in hand.

So she's been driving for 2 years, but how consistent? Do you work her every day, every other day, has she had time off? This all plays into it. They have to be conditioned to do the work we are asking them to do. Meaning, if they have had 2 months off, they aren't going to be as capable of maintaining and steady pace as a horse that has been driven 3-4x a week because they muscles will tire easier. You mentioned that you don't drive 2 days in a row, why not? Go for it, that will help you establish your rhythm.

How long is your whip? will it reach past her hips? Say what you mean and mean what you say. Make sure you are asking the same way, in hand, on the lunge or in harness for a trot or whatever cue you want to use. I expect a little less upity in the ring vs on the trail but if I ask for it I get it. Also make sure you aren't holding the reins tighter in the ring vs on the trail restricting her forwardness, sometimes we do things like this without thinking about it or realizing we are doing it.

karen

 

[rbrown]

The metronome is smart!! I will try that today. My whip reaches her shoulders. When I use it, I tap her hindquarters- same when ground driving and lunging. I actually have the reverse problem with contact- I keep having to remind myself to pick up contact in the indoor, as when she's not moving out, I throw away contact without thinking about it.

She's definitely had time off- she got sick when she arrived here after a decently long trip, so she had about 2 months off, and now has been back in work for about 2 months. I don't think her trainers had enough time to work her everyday (though I could be wrong), and since it takes me 1 hour just to get to the barn on the weekend when there's no traffic (driving there after work is awful with the traffic!), I am only able to see her 2-3 times a week. Not ideal at all. This summer I will hopefully be working her almost every day. I guess this didn't occur to me, since my other mare, even when I hadn't worked her in months, was still able to keep a good rhythm and move well. But duh, of course Skip isn't improving as fast as I think she should- she's only getting worked twice a week and she's still young!

ETA... I took Skip out this morning, to lunge her and ground drive her. I hardly ever think to set goals before I work her, but this time I made it my goal to work on keeping a steady speed and rhythm. I think it helped, because I am usually trying to work on a hundred things at once! I forgot to look for a metronome app before I went to the barn, so will have to see how that works, but she was better than she usually is and I am proud to say that we had at least a few full trotting circles where I wasn't reminding her to move, and she was very good about maintaining a nice, working walk without slowing down

I will have to keep reminding myself to set goals before we get to work so I can stay focused, and I'm sure that the more workouts like this that we have, the better she'll get! Thank you everyone for the help!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hi there! Welcome to the forum.

I wrote this lovely long reply the night you first posted but managed to erase it at four in the morning and didn't have the heart to rewrite it. You've gotten some great advice since then! I want to say first of all that you're clearly a caring, conscientious driver who loves her mare and looked first to the physical variables so kudos to you for that. You're absolutely right to look first to the harness, the footing, and her physical fitness. That said, your replies have painted an interesting picture.

I chose some specific lines that caught my eye as I was reading and ran them all together below. I hope you'll forgive me.

Oh yes, I should have mentioned that I do obstacles with her- I've never driven her twice in a row, so if we're not driving, out in the woods, or on a walk down the road, we're probably doing obstacles! She really likes obstacles- jumping, hula hoops, pushing the huge inflatable ball, standing on pedestals, she'll sidepass on cue, etc. She is a curious horse, so she's always interested in whatever we're doing, but she really likes to stand there and play with the obstacles. She wants to sniff, lick, and chew on everything before we actually use it as an obstacle...And I should also add that she's fairly green- I think she's been driving for almost 2 years now. I didn't train her, but I know her trainer said she gets lazy.

She goes along so well in the field that I end up doing a lot of work with her there versus just cruising around- big circles, transitions, etc. She does have a bit of trouble staying at the same speed... almost like she doesn't quite know how to settle into a good rhythm yet...

I actually have the reverse problem with contact- I keep having to remind myself to pick up contact in the indoor, as when she's not moving out, I throw away contact without thinking about it. ... I hardly ever think to set goals before I work her, but this time I made it my goal to work on keeping a steady speed and rhythm. I think it helped, because I am usually trying to work on a hundred things at once!

So what I see here is a young, curious horse, naturally energy-conserving (okay, lazy) and easily bored, who has been out of work and doesn't have the muscle to hold her balance and rhythm for long. Most days she gets to do fun things- jumping, going down the trail, obstacle work, things like that with the involved owner she loves and lots of interesting things to see and do. Then every few days she gets put into harness, taken to a dark mono-featured box and asked to walk or trot in circles constantly without a real plan or focus. Oh, and when she slows down enough her reins (understandably) go slack and allow what little energy she had to vanish into the ground.

Sound about right?

You see where I'm going with this?

It seems to me that she's so used to being worked outside that she's never had to really learn the cues for going forward. She just DOES, and you're able to work on bending and transitions and tracking up and all those other wonderful things. That's a good way to teach those lessons initially but the problem is that when you take her in the indoor you see the gaps in her education. You mentioned never driving her in the arena for more than half an hour and that's probably part of your problem too; she's like a kid in detention waiting for the bell to ring. Why SHOULD she work harder? You're going to let her out of this purgatory soon and she won't have to come back here until the next time you get this silly idea to stop being fun. Seeing things from her perspective it's pretty obvious why she's acting as she does.

Horses aren't dumb!

The solution is going to be two-fold. When you're outside, you need to really work on building her understanding of forward cues and insisting she move on each and every time you ask her to. It may only be for a stride, but she needs to try! The advantage of working on this outside is she has motivation of her own and you can introduce this lesson in a positive context where she's set up to succeed.

The second part of this is for you to stop subconsciously scorning arena work as boring. Don't give me that look, we all do it! LOL. It is, or at least it seems like it at first! We get in there and secretly feel just as uninspired as our horses and the whole lot of us go "blaaaahh...." like a toy running out of batteries. My youngster Turbo was going through that big-time when I put him back to work last week. He wanted desperately to go out front and play and turning him towards the arena caused all sorts of spinouts and whirling and try-to-drive-a-noodle episodes. Once I got him in there he just died. Period. Can't make me. Bleah. Not gonna happen. Driving around cones or obstacles would only have helped a little because he would still have been metaphorically staring out that window and wishing he was anywhere else. The solution is focusing inward, on the partnership between you, so that the outer location ceases to matter. You have to inspire the horse to find interest and pleasure in the things you're asking her to do instead of where you're asking her to go. Actively drive her every single step, all the time, and help her to think about how she can improve her own self-carriage. Show her how it benefits her, and how happy it makes you.

With Turbo I started by letting him walk over his favorite piece of plywood near the gate then heading into a corner he seemed drawn to. (Don't worry about where they're going when you've got a problem like this- just focus on how they're going! One thing at a time, and this time your lesson is impulsion. USE what the horse is offering no matter how tiny.) I asked him to bend a little, corrected his course, bent a little more, then pushed him through the corner and softened minutely to allow a stretch and tell him he'd done well. Then we collected again with a half-halt and immediately focused on the next corner on the short side and I helped him correct his balance there too. He was beginning to pay attention so I asked him to reverse on a semi-circle then we bent properly and leg yielded a little as we returned to the rail, walked on, rounded up a little, bent through the next corner, worked on straightening well then immediately went on a diagonal that seemed natural. These relaxed but free-flowing activities began to tune his brain in and soon I had more energy to work with which I promptly channeled forward and was able to praise, praise, praise. When my older horse pulled the annoying "can't move faster than a snail" trick the same night I got after him quite a bit more because he KNOWS how to move on and we did quite a few walk/trot transitions until when I said "Walk on" he'd actually become over-reactive and would break to trot. Normally that's a big no-no for us but in this case it was a step in the right direction with raising his energy level so I allowed it with mild praise then gently brought him back to walk and asked again for a walk on. Once he consistently responded to that with a big energy surge that set his back swinging as he pushed from the hind end he got treated like the world's most brilliant pony and we quit for the night as it was too dark to build on that success. Turbo is not ready for that sort of thing yet so for him it was keeping him busy mentally and building interest in our activities until he was eagerly waiting to see what the next thing I was going to ask for was. It's a bit like a game of Simon Says but it's all in how you're asking them to travel ("A little straighter, a little more round, a little more stretched, a little more bent now...that's good!") The next day Turbo still played up a little going into the arena but was much better, the third day he hardly fussed at all, and tonight after a couple of days off he marched right up there on his own and kept a good forward walk without me even asking. I was quite pleased! He's now seeing the arena as a place interesting things happen and not that purgatory where ponies go to be bored.

And of course the more forward and interested he is, the more fun things we can do!

So much of it is how the driver sees things. I used to find the driven dressage ring constricting in a big open field so as I mentally compacted myself into that "small space," my horse always lost impulsion and would barely move. When I had an epiphany after four years and realized what I was doing, I put my shoulders back and treated that 30x60 space like I would the big arena we explode into for AMHR shows and our scores increased exponentially the very next time out. You have to turn that indoor arena of yours from the boring box shutting her out of fun places to that special space where the two of you go together to learn and focus on the dance. That's something you'll have to show her through a couple of sessions in a row as she'll never believe you otherwise. No more only going there when you have no other choice! No more quiting after 30 minutes without having made progress.

Stick with it a few drives in a row and you'll soon see a lot of progress as you solidify the foundation work you missed and then build on it with skills you can take back out in the real world.

When she's finished in the arena and has ended on a good note, reward her with a cool-down outside so she sees that doing what you want gets her what she wants too. That's the best possible way to motivate a horse!

Off my Zen-of-Driving soap box,

Leia

 

[rbrown]

Oh boy, I think I had an ah-ha moment! Thank you thank you thank you, Leia! I am a teacher, so I should know that when I am interested in the topic, so are my students, and DUH, my horse is no different! As one of the ladies at the barn said, "Oh, so Skip has you convinced that arena work is no fun?!" I feel like if it had actually snowed this winter and I had been forced to work in the arena all the time, we might not be having this problem

I am going to focus more on my cues, and making sure she is responding to them so she starts really understanding that go means go, and that things will be much more pleasant for her when she listens. I will stop avoiding the indoor- I like the idea of working inside, then ending with a nice walk outside. I just wish I was able to go to the barn every day, or even every other day. I know a big part of the problem is that we're only working on this stuff 2-3 times a week, which is really not ideal. I just keep reminding myself that summer is almost here!!

Thank you again Leia- I have a much better sense of what I should be doing now!

 

[Jetiki]

Leia, you have a great way with words

Still playing up beat music while you are driving makes it more fun

Karen

 

[midnight star stables]

I'll be honest that I haven't read all the post (will come back on tonight to read through fully); but I thought I should add that when I had "energy" issues with one of my driving horses(especially when not going for "fun" trail drives down the road!), a blood test that showed (and surprised both me, my vet, and everyone that has worked with this horse) that this horse suffered from "tying-up". This horse never "froze" but expressed her tying-up as a "lazy" work ethic and poor stamina. And she didn't do it always, she loved jumping, trail drives, and loved to work - she is a very successful show horse. My horse was not being disobedient, she was in pain and that was her way of showing it. Knowing your horse can be really important. This horse is now on routine blood work, a special diet, Added Vit. E & Selenium, Pre & Probiotics and ulcer medications to help her feel better all over. I hope to add some AntiOxidants, Electrolytes and muscle recovery supplement to her diet soon too.

I won't have a full follow-up until this summer when I can reflect on her performance and future blood test comparisons.

May not be the same issue with your girl (though I'm sure a blood test wouldn't hurt) I thought I'd share and maybe it will help others

. Because my horse doesn't present with the normal "tying-up" symptoms (but rather just "lazy"), we would have never thought along those lines. After being diagnosed and life-style changes, I'm hoping to have a "new" horse this year. I hope my experiences can help just one horse.

 

[rbrown]

I did briefly consider that it could be health related (I remember reading another post somewhere about a horse having seeming lazy due to health issues), but I didn't think it was a health issue since she has tons of energy when we're on the trails, or when she's playing with her buddies... but from your post, it sounds like your horse was behaving a lot like Skip is. Do you know if your vet ran a certain type of blood test? I think this is worth checking out, thank you!

 

[midnight star stables]

My vet started with a basic blood test (CBC I want to say, but I'm having a moment) because we really did not know what her issue was. We had thought maybe anemia or hormonal or what Mary's mare had, but when the results came back with "Exertional Rhabdomyolysisis" (aka Tying Up), like I said, we were all socked! It didn't match up with the "regular" symptoms. The vet was out this weekend to take more blood for her first follow up; I'm still waiting for the results.

Just to give another example of my mare's "lazy mood", today I lunged her for 10 minutes at a walk/trot (which she has been in a conditioning program for just over a month now, thanks to the warm weather here this year!) and I had to constantly "push" her to get her to maintain regular compulsion, aka "lazy". Following the lunging her and I went for a 30 minute walk down the road. She was bright and alert the whole time, often breaking into a trot and wanting to keep going (had to remind her we were going for a walk

). After the walk I turned her out with the other horses. A few hours later she was cantering around the field with the babies (not something she often does).

So I am certainly learning as we go along, but it is fascinating. The only thing I'm happy about is that she is feeling better. I also plan to treat her with the same stuff that Mary used, but I won't bother mentioning everything until I see some significant improvement. She also gets pre&probiotics, salt and ground flax seeds as a top dressing. Again, hopes that helps.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Hey Des! That could also explain her somewhat cranky at times behaviour too! I would never have thought that of Joy.....

 

[rbrown]

Just to give another example of my mare's "lazy mood", today I lunged her for 10 minutes at a walk/trot (which she has been in a conditioning program for just over a month now, thanks to the warm weather here this year!) and I had to constantly "push" her to get her to maintain regular compulsion, aka "lazy". Following the lunging her and I went for a 30 minute walk down the road. She was bright and alert the whole time, often breaking into a trot and wanting to keep going (had to remind her we were going for a walk

). After the walk I turned her out with the other horses. A few hours later she was cantering around the field with the babies (not something she often does).

That describes Skip almost perfectly! Lunging her is painful- I am constantly pushing her, but as soon as we hit the trails she can't wait to go (especially when we come across a log to jump over- she can hardly contain her excitement!). I am definitely going to ask for a blood test when the vet is out for spring shots.

 

[rbrown]

Just wanted to update... I have been off work all week, which means I've been to the barn 4 days in a row (why can't every week be like this?!), and I have to say, we are improving! I spent a bit of time doing some lunging and long-lining in the neighbor's pasture, where Skip naturally has more energy, and really focused on having her respond to my cues. I drove her in the arena 4 days in a row, and today she did several laps around the arena at a trot without breaking, and without me reminding her to keep moving! This is a big deal for her

So things are going well. I am being very careful to be consistent with my cues, and that has helped, too. Thanks all for the advice