Selling horses without papers?

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MA that is a great point...

Large horses- so many are not registered and are still highly sought after and bring darn good money as hunters/jumpers or west horses.

It all comes down minis being a breed that is bred to be bred.
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MA that is a great point...Large horses- so many are not registered and are still highly sought after and bring darn good money as hunters/jumpers or west horses.
And some day maybe unregistered minis will have equal opportunities as well, but they have none now. Where would you ever see non-registered minis being accepted at a mini show? Heck, even registered minis have enough problems being shown what with constant measuring, which can be hit or miss from what I have read here these past several years. Unregistered large horses have tons of show opportunities every day...to compare them to unregistered minis is like apples and oranges...the only similarity is the shape.
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What if a foal was born with bad conformation problem (s) (ie. bad bite or twisted legs or dwarfy characteristics etc.) and the breeder decides at birth they are not even going to register the horse? Is it then OK to sell them without papers because they are not yet registered?
If the foal has terrible conformation, shows signs of dwarfism, or has some problem that prohibits it from ever becoming a useful horse in the performance ot driving ring...that is different. I am talking about the many horses that just wouldn't bve "perfect" enough for a breeder to breed. And that too can be subjective.

we've sold pets with papers in the past and stopped that pretty darn fast when they started showing up in the ring...if l'm not comfortable showing them because there not up to par your not using my farm name to do it.... my reason for selling with no papers.
If they are THAT bad, one should perhaps take a long hard look at one's breeding program. If a horse being produced by your farm isn't even good enough to be driven, or shown by a 4-H youth...that horse isn't the originating problem.

It all comes down minis being a breed that is bred to be bred
Sadly, that is only TOO TRUE, and one of the main reasons I have decided to get away from breeding. I see far-far too many horses being pumped out of both registered AND unregistered stock that are being bred only because they have reproductive organs...not because their foals will become a benifit to the breed.
 
Sue C.

l think your remark about my breeding program was very uncalled for all l did was answer why l sell them unpapered...to each his own but l have looked at my horses and l have also looked at myself and what l'm doing with my breeding program and feel just fine about it..pets happen and l don't sell them with papers even if others think they are good enough to show...my barn my rules.
 
All I can say is DITTO!

IMHO, selling without papers does NOT DETER those who are greedy or ignorant enough to breed poor quality/poorly conformed, or otherwise non-breeding animals. Those people will breed reguardless of papers, unless they can be informed and educated by the seller, as to WHY that animal shouldn't be bred. If we as breeders/sellers would pay more attention to who we sell to, and do our best in informing the buyers...perhaps the breeding of these animals can be lessened.
As far as selling what one has decided is "pet quality", or otherwise un-breedable without papers...this can be doing the animal a huge dis-service. Many horses that would never make a halter contender, can go on to become the most extraordinary DRIVING horses...not every horse is a halter winner...but they STILL deserve a chance to be used and possibly shown in other diciplines. Once those papers are with-held...the animal has no chance of "becoming the best it can be"...what a shame that could be.
 
And some day maybe unregistered minis will have equal opportunities as well, but they have none now. Where would you ever see non-registered minis being accepted at a mini show? Heck, even registered minis have enough problems being shown what with constant measuring, which can be hit or miss from what I have read here these past several years. Unregistered large horses have tons of show opportunities every day...to compare them to unregistered minis is like apples and oranges...the only similarity is the shape.
The single thing with unregistered big horses, is there is jsut about tons mroe to do with one, not having papers isn't going to stop them from being an awsome horse. It won't stop them from being able to be trail riding horses, cow horses, or jsut plain old good kids horses. The options for big horses without papers are just so much more than mini's. I mean mini's you get one for a pet, you put 'em out in the yard and play with 'em. Or you can drive 'em, but that's about it. You want to get into just about any fun stuff, and you've GOT to have papers. Big horses you don't. We live adn work on a ranch, so being horseback is a job requirement. Out of the 7 QH's we have here, only 3 are papers, the other 4 aren't. Of those 4 that aren't one is my 2 yr olds horse, he was my old kid horse, an awsome all around babysit, wouldn't harm a hair ona kids hair horse. One is a PMU colt, and the other two are just general ranch horses. All are nice horses. Funny enough the worst one we have is a Skipper W bred AQHA red roan that would as soon as kick or paw your eyes out as look at you. One of my husbands best cow horses was a grade QH, tough as a boot in the rocks, knew how to keep his feet under him, and would watch a cow like a hawk. But again, it's just different with the big ones, there so many opportunities to have and use big horses without papers, that jsut isn't there with mini's.
 
l think your remark about my breeding program was very uncalled for all l did was answer why l sell them unpapered...to each his own but l have looked at my horses and l have also looked at myself and what l'm doing with my breeding program and feel just fine about it..pets happen and l don't sell them with papers even if others think they are good enough to show...my barn my rules.
What I am trying to get across is that just because a horse isn't HALTER material, shouldn't make it unworthy of registration. WHY should a horse with a not so perfect head/neck/croup ETC...be relegated to the backyard, rather than given a chance to shine in the ring in another dicipline?

The term "pet quality" does this breed SUCH a diservice...what other breed have you EVER heard this term in, besides dogs??
 
MA that is a great point...Large horses- so many are not registered and are still highly sought after and bring darn good money as hunters/jumpers or west horses.

It all comes down minis being a breed that is bred to be bred.
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The thing is--and I think this has already been said--there are SO many more opportunities for full size horses to show even when they aren't registered. They can do dressage, H/J, eventing, and any classes at the open shows--pleasure, reining, gymkhana, whatever. In this area, all of those things are available.

For an unregistered Mini, what is there? Here you cannot even show that unregistered mini at the local fairs, because in order to show in the mini classes there must be registration papers. You can show as an open pony, but then you are at more of a disadvantage because you are likely to be showing against ponies up to 11.2 or 12.2 hands. You can compete in CDE without papers.....but some areas may not have CDEs (we don't, unless you drive a considerable distance and then compete in the pony division because VSE isn't offered). The unregistered Mini can be a family pet and driving horse, or a riding horse for the little kids. That's it.
 
I have to disagree here. As far as things to do with our horses other than showing at miniature shows. I have paid the bills for many years with B geldings most of them not registered. It is harder now with the cost of everything else so much higher. 250 -500 is all we have ever asked for our young stock.( weanlng- yearling- boys to be gelded or not registered. )

Parades- Pulling contest. The last time we were at the Taylor Horsefest The miniature teams came in by the dozens and walked away with it, because they go by weight of the horses. Log pulling contests. Cut down horse machinery contests.Those guys want them 36-37 inches because that is half size and it is easier to scale down machinery. 6 horse hitches. Teams to bring the old man home from the bar horses. Not so many years ago you could see as many as three teams out side the local tavern on Sat. afternoon. These horses are now babysitting the grand kids. They get past down from one generation to the next.

These people do not care a bit about papers. They want a good safe horse.

15 to 20 years ago I sold a Rowdy son to some people. They could care less who he is. He is still winning barrel racing for their grandkids. They don't care about miniature horse forums and magazines and papers they just like going to open horse shows and having fun. And the best part about it is that the horses are used and taken care of.

I got a call from al lady in Washington the other day, who I think is going to have to go into therapy because she just lost her 18 year old unregistered gelding that she got from us.

If you go to a sale a good 36-40 inch well broke kind gelding will bring good money, just like a large horse.
 
LaVern, I think you are very lucky to be living in your part of the continent. There are no pulling contests here that even allow ponies, let alone minis...let alone machinery contests, (?) or horse teams tied up outside of the bars... (That would be worth seeing...)

And yes, the occasional tall mini gets saddle broke, but what about the very likely hundreds of others that are too small, that could still become great little driving horses for local shows and fairs? Here, papers are required to show even at these venues.

To raise a horse, to breed it, put the mare at risk, foal her out...possibly ending up with vet bills, and raising that foal to weaning...at the very least...why would you do it for only $250-500 anyways??

I just think that witholding papers because a horse isn't "winning halter quality" is a shame...because it is only a TYPE, not the actual breed being represented in the halter ring.
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We place so much...FAR TOO MUCH emphasis on halter "quality" in my opinion. There are only the few who are actually shown in halter, then fewer again, who are winning consistantly...that I don't see why our entire breed should be compared to those few...and not considered for themselves and what they can contribute. I think the miniature horse as a breed can evolve past that.
 
Sue I can see your point. It does kind of devalue those animals that do have a recorded pedigree and shouldn't they deserve to have it.

I do tell those people that I will be glad to provide the papers as soon as they are gelded, but they just don't care about papers and don't want to breed miniature horses they just want a good family horse.

And truthfully those are the people I love, we have breeders coming out of our ears.
 
I hadn't read this post until today--didn't think I could contribute, but I happen to agree with every word Sue has written.

When I first bought Gypsy, the seller told me about her paperwork and I said "Oh, I don't care about papers." but I changed my mind. It was very discouraging to see the cost of becoming a member to the registries and transfer the horse... but I did it, just in case....

Glad I did.
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Whisper has an off bite and I've advertised her as a non-breeding mare, but I'd always, always, always sell her with papers. Just as Sue said, halter class is the ONLY class she can't do! Behind her bite, her conformation is awesome. Her molars line up perfectly so she'd make an terrific driving horse. She's Kennedy's horse to work, and Kennedy has her doing fabulous obstacle work and jumping at liberty. Whisper went to one show and loved it! Why would I make the decision to close those opportunities out to Whisper and a potential new owner?? (don't worry, mods, she's no longer for sale
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) I have had several interested in Whisper over the years, but they all admitted they'd want to breed her, so I say no--not selling then.

And for $250-500? They're worth way more than that to me to keep them right here. I'd never go through the breeding/mare stare/foaling, etc with that amount in mind.

I've only had a few foals, and we're done breeding, but I'm proud for ALL of them to have my farm name--perfect conformation or not. Raising them to be kind, well-mannered, eager learners, and loving ambassadors is a worthy characteristic too.
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I sold a bred mare this year on a payment plan and am holding the paperwork until the horse is paid off.

This motivates the buyer to continue on the plan,

and helps them to fufill a dream to have a mare and foal they've always wanted.
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