rule book breeding 2yr.old stallions

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pinck43

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I talked to someone who was one the rule book committee to try and get a better understanding on the ruling. She feels people are misinterpreting it. All is means is the sallion must be permanently registered before the foal is registered. For an example, if foal is born in April and stallion doesn't turn 3 till June, then foal can't be registered until the stallion owner receives his permanent papers. This will help get the paperwork done on stallions that aren't being shown. This will also keep people from breeding their young stallions. Hope this helps. Dionne
 

Minimor

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Sorry, it doesn't help. The same issues are still there. The issue of if the stallion dies before his actual 3rd birthday, and so he can never get his permanent papers...if the horse is sold and the new owner doesn't bring his papers permanent...someone on an earlier thread said that if that happens the seller should just get a duplicate copy of the papers (assuming the buyer hasn't transferred the horse either) & send in for permanent papers. That's not on the up and up, since obviously the horse is gone & cannot be measured--person would have to lie. Unfortunately, I can see that happening...if someone has actually suggested doing it, you can be sure there will be those DOING it. Sigh.

What's the concern about breeding young stallions? Nearly all cases where a yearling sires a foal...it is an accident. It's common practice for breeders to breed their 2 year old stallions to a few mares--how is that a bad thing?

It's not an issue for me, since our stallion is past his 3rd birthday & his permanent application is ready to go--I'll be sending it in along with the registration applications for his 2 '05 foals--but I have concerns with the overall impact of this rule change for breeders in general. I think it's ridiculous, and I think the rule should have been properly discussed so that everyone knew about it ahead of time. I also think it should have been worded more clearly, so that there could be no confusion regarding what it actually means.
 

Cathy_H

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She feels people are misinterpreting it
............................ If a rule can be misinterpreted by so many people, then it NEEDS to be clarified so that everyone can understand it........... I personally see no problem with a two year old breeding a few mares............ Apparently there can be problems with this rule & it needs to be thought through more than it was previously......................................................... Wanted to add .. Since we do our advertising from showing our horses this means I could not show my weanling that I wanted to show & sell if his sire was not yet three. We have in the past shown every foal that was for sale as we are a small farm & cannot keep all of our foals (2-4 each year)................................ So what do we have here with this rule ------ Horses being sold without papers from breeders who do not want to hang onto the foals - How can that be good for the miniature horse industry as horses without papers are sold for less money? Not saying we would sell ours without papers - we would hold on to ours but think about the breeders who have too many & will let them go for a few bucks.
 
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Becky

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I'm not exactly sure how AMHR is handling this, but I can tell you that AMHA has the same general rule.

Horses that turn 5 (both mares and stallions) can't have registered offspring that year until they have been taken permanent. It doesn't affect the registration of previous years offspring. In the event of a death of sire/dam that hasn't gone permanent, as long as the horse involved is marked 'deceased' on the registry records, it's offspring can still be registered as long as all other registration requirements are met such as DNA, ownership, etc. All the more reason to DNA potential breeding horses BEFORE they are used for breeding!
 

ChrystalPaths

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Ok, now I've been reading all these different threads and I just thought of something. My Hopes was used as a 2 yr old (he's 5 now) and all his babies were registered
Both A&R. I am totally confused now. Hopes is sold and his new owners were told to bring him perm this year.

Now my Glow is 2 yrs old and will be three in May of 06. He did get in with the mares one time and although I have NO IDEA if he had time to breed anyone, I do plan on sending in stallion reports to the A&R.

IF I get a foal from that interlude....as I am understanding it...after Glow turns 3 in May.and I get him perm in the R...any of the resulting get IS registerable regardless of when they were conceived.

Have I got it right?
 

Buckskin gal

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You have made some very good points. The getting a duplicate would be entirely

wrong since a measurement couldn't be done, but so would the registering a foal from a stallion that has deceased and hadn't been brought permanent because he couldn't be measured either. It really sounds like matters had not been thought through before this new rule was put into effect and I do think it is hard for many to interpret correctly. Would love to hear the honest to goodness truth as to why the board put this rule into effect, as it is and who really benefitted from it. Mary

Minimor said:
Sorry, it doesn't help.  The same issues are still there.  The issue of if the stallion dies before his actual 3rd birthday, and so he can never get his permanent papers...if the horse is sold and the new owner doesn't bring his papers permanent...someone on an earlier thread said that if that happens the seller should just get a duplicate copy of the papers (assuming the buyer hasn't transferred the horse either) & send in for permanent papers.  That's not on the up and up, since obviously the horse is gone & cannot be measured--person would have to lie.  Unfortunately, I can see that happening...if someone has actually suggested doing it, you can be sure there will be those DOING it.  Sigh.
What's the concern about breeding young stallions?  Nearly all cases where a yearling sires  a foal...it is an accident. It's common practice for breeders to breed their 2 year old stallions to a few mares--how is that a bad thing?

It's not an issue for me, since our stallion is past his 3rd birthday & his permanent application is ready to go--I'll be sending it in along with the registration applications for his 2 '05 foals--but I have concerns with the overall impact of this rule change for breeders in general.  I think it's ridiculous, and I think the rule should have been properly discussed so that everyone knew about it ahead of time.  I also think it should have been worded more clearly, so that there could be no confusion regarding what it actually means.

465306[/snapback]

 

pinck43

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Well i can see there are a lot of different situations that can arise concerning this ruling. I was just trying to clear the air a bit, but I guess there are alot of questions that still need to be answered. I also have registered "A" babies before the parents are 5. Maybe someone else can find out more details. Thanks, and sorry dionne
 

Cathy_H

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Maybe someone else can find out more details. Thanks, and sorry
No need to be sorry. I hope you are not taking these comments personally............... One cannot realize the problems that might result unless rules are thought out thoroughly. It should have been presented for discussion so 'what if's' could have been explored. Not a big problem though as it can be fixed if the proper people have a notion to.
 

Miniv

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As has been pointed out by previous posts, there are many flaws with this new rule. In my opinion, it was not well thought out.....

Another point is that this rule was DUMPED on the AMHR members with NO warning. There was no discussion or anything. I personally find this very upsetting.

MA
 
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RENMACMINIS

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I am one of those that has a gorgeous filly that cant be registered partly my fault b/c i played around and kept putting off sending in her papers. But now it is due to the fact that her sire has not been brought permanent and have just recently found out will not be brought permanent due to the fact the last owner sold him WITHOUT his papers. So here i am stuck with a nice filly that cant be registered.. someone kick me in the behind!! I figured i had plenty of time.. now I guess i dont since they changed that rule...
 

k9mini2

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Well this is all making me realize I could have gotten into a problem. thankfully I am getting this before any damage is done. I have a 2 year old that I bred to 4 mares this year. I have since bought another stallion, and had thought of selling the 2 year old. He's not leaving now until he turns 3!

Why can't they just make the rule that if the horse is not made permanent in his 3 year old year that his foals born the following year (his 4 yr old year) can't be registred until he is brought permanent. That way the person in possession of him at the time he should have been permanent at age 3 would most likely be the person who was breeding him and would suffer the consequences of their lack of interest.

Most people who sell a horse during its 3 year old year have got to know that he is due to be permanent and if they don't do it themselves they can't blame someone else if they bred mares to him.

The way the rule reads now a person selling the stud during his two year old year can be caught in this, but If I own the stud and I know he needs to be brought permananent and I have bred mares... and I don't send in his paper work....duh!

The way it is now It kind of keeps you from selling the 2 year olds if you have used them on mares. So what was the real goal? to stop us from breeding 2 year olds? OR to make people be more timely in bringing studs permanent?
 

Russ

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Well, when Dr. Pam gets back from Nationals you guys can ask her, how to go about getting your concerns heard. I believe she assisted on the rule book revision commitee.Go through the proper channels and voice your concerns to your directers, president, board etc in a diplomatic, professional, positive and proactive tone.

Also and this is just my opinion.....have some faith in our registries. They aren't out to "get" anyone or trip anyone up. As in everything in life....rules have bumps in the road and mistakes are made....there are ways to fix everything. It's not like Moses wrote the rule book and things are written in stone forever.


The breeders of any registry are part of the back bone of financial success within the registries.....be positive....they won't let you down.


Dionne....don't be
.......you were just trying to help.
AND don't let this effect you from posting......ya here!

I always wear my flame proof underpants before going anywhere on the net just to be safe.
Guess I'm trying to say, Don't let comments effect ya personally.
 
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Little Wee Horse Farm

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As I said in the earlier post on this, I reiterate:

WHO benefits from this rule? Rules/laws usually have someone who is protected or helped by the rule or law. You can say, "I don't like it, but I can understand where it helps so & so or would prevent such & such............."

Neither horse nor human benefit, as far as I can see on this one.. I also don't see any benefit to the registry. Can't be money -- going perm is only 5 bucks!

My question: Why this rule?
Can someone answer? It would be very nice if someone could actually explain the NEED for such a rule. Besides all the confusion, such a rule is creating already, I think I most resent seeing NO reason for the rule. Please help me understand it.
 
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pinck43

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Thanks for all of you concern. It won't keep me from posting and I didn't take anything personally.
This situation DOES need to be clarified. I also have a 2yr. that I used for breeding. Luckily his only foal won't be born till after he is permanently registered.
Thanks, Dionne
 

justjinx

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I have one foal due in 2006 from my 2 year old stallion and i think the foal is due right after my stallion turns 3. guess i better have everything ready to fly! LOL

jennifer
 

Little Wee Horse Farm

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Pinck42 -- Yes, please don't think that any of these posts are directed at you....we're all just very frustrated about this rule that's been forced on us. Any anger or frustration is directed towards the registry, not you. -- karen
 

auledasacres

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My biggest problem with the change is how it has gone down. Why do you make huge changes like that in the middle of breeding season. I feel the changes were made to no members understanding it was coming. As a member we buy the rule book. When the change it they make no statement in the form of a mass mailing sent to alll members. We have to find out on the internet about it.

If these changes were necessary for AMHR we should have all be notified of this by mail and the changes should have started Jan 2006 not in the middle of breeding season. My opinion is this should be the purk for being a member of this organization.

I did run into problem with them this year. I bought a mare that was bred to the previous owners stallion. He was born in April. I sent the paperwork in the week he was born. 6 weeks later I still didn't have the paperwork back. I made numerous phone calls, thought I had it straightened out and then the paperwork never came again. I finally got a letter stating they couldn't register the foal until the stallion was permenent. I called the breeder and she immediately sent the paperwork. He hadn't hit is birthday until recently. I called them back to say my paperwork was post dated before his birthday so his papers should be able to be worked. They agreed and I finally got the papers. He was closed to weaning before I got them.

Sorry to ramble, somedays I just don't understand the dynamics of all these rule changes and why they don't notify members respectfully.

Traci
 

Lewella

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This has been being discussed on a couple of the yahoogroups too and what I've found interesting is one gal talked to her director, who has been a director for quite some time, and he wasn't aware of this rule change at all! And, another director came on one group and said something to the effect of ask the office where the rule came from..........

As others have said, I don't see how this benifits anyone. I know someone who sent in registration papers on an 04 weanling last December and they refused to register her weanling because the sire wasn't brought permenant. The person doing the registering had bought the mare bred. She made sure she had the stallion report and breeders certificate in hand since the mare she bought was the only mare the stallion had been bred to and she knew the stallion was also for sale and would likely be sold. The stallion was a two year old in 2003 when he bred the mare. The stallion was sold also to another person who chose not to even transfer him. Now this woman who did everything right, got all the correct paperwork done, can't get papers on her filly. How does this benifit the registry? How does this benifit this beautiful filly who can no longer be registered unless by some miracle her sire is located and brought permenant? How does this benifit the members?
 

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