Reducing belly

[whitney]

From one rookie to another. I HAVE tried everything BUT the little hay technique and nothing has worked. I do know that the 30+ years of having big horses is USELESS when feeding minis. If you do a search on anyone that has answered you, you will find their posts in the beginning trying to figure out WHAT WORKS!

Before you discount the No handful of hay you better weigh your handfulls. My biggest problem was having big horses first where a little extra never hurt. My advice invest in a scale and measure everything. My handfuls weigh a pound. My minis only need 2 pounds 1% of body weight (we can't determine where that recommendation came from probably from big horses).

I'm not sure lack of hay is a primary reason for ulcers. I had a barnful of ulcer horses (never had a horse with an ulcer before that) and they ALL were getting ALOT of grass hay.

I think minis process protein differently and may need more?

 

[mdegner]

I'll take a stab at this but first I commend you for seeking help from those of us that have been there done that and learned from our mistakes. Keep in mind that what works for one may not be good for another, so do keep an open mind. When dealing with youngsters I do feed Purina Jr. and also it is backed up with Purina Born to Win ration balancer plus plenty of hay/grass. My yearlings do not get forced exercise whatsoever and they have no bellies and are quite fit and could be show ring ready with just a good bath and clipping. They are simply allowed to be babies and they exercise plenty on their own.

The foundation of my feeding program is hay. I feed a very good quality orchard grass hay plus I have grass pasture to offer.

You start feeding hay only by the handful and you are going to have ulcers and you may already have them from withholding adequate hay/grass; as ulcers take on many forms and one of them is extended belly. Horses naturally produce acid to the stomach and hay and natural grass grazing buffers the acid. When a horse is refused adequate grazing or forraging hay, excessive acid builds up in the stomach, which results in a gas overload thus causing an ulcer.Horses are grazers and the last thing I would be withholding is their proper amount of hay/grass. This is however not to say to allow them to go out and gorge themselves into a state of obescity which is equally as bad. A handful of hay is absolutely not sufficient whatsoever, but you must allow them grazing time of grass/hay somewhere in your daily schedules.

Also for yearlings treadmilling and round penning would be out of the question. I am completely with Leia. The only way I would be round penning is if the pen were huge such as mine is 55' and there is no sharp radius. To reduce belly bloat besides going over your feeding program consider a 5 day purge of SafeGuard.

Best wishes and good luck to you.

Thanks Marty. Is there a way to tell if they have ulcers? I began reducing hay about 2 weeks ago, so does it take a while or can they happen quickly? I am going to give them a bit more hay then I had been giving them and reduce training to and every other day round pen of 20 min. We don't have any pastures without grass and, since both horses are dark and we don't want the color bleached by the sun, they are in the barn during the day and in a large round pen overnight. (at least during the show season) I won't stop the round pen run since it's really their only known exercise. Thanks

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Recent studies have shown that a small amount of alfalfa can buffer stomach acids in horses and help to prevent or even heal ulcers.

 

[whitney]

This came from THE HORSE.com website

If your horse has ulcers, giving him GastroGard (omeprazole) isn't the only thing you can do to help reduce the severity of the problem. At the 2007 American Association of Equine Practitioners Convention, held Dec. 1-5 in Orlando, Fla., Noah Cohen, VMD, PhD, MPH, Dipl. ACVIM, professor of equine medicine at Texas A&M University, discussed a study that found alfalfa hay reduced the severity of ulcers in young, exercising horses.

Ulcers can reduce a horse's appetite and feed intake and cause weight loss, poor hair coat, colic, and reduced performance. Many factors can contribute to ulcers, including stall confinement, intensive exercise, feeding infrequent large meals, and stomach outflow obstruction.

In this study, 24 Quarter Horse yearlings were kept in small dry lots and fed two different diets for 28 days each, with a 21-day pasture washout period between. The first diet included coastal Bermuda grass hay and a 15% pelleted concentrate, while the other diet included the same amount of alfalfa hay and the same concentrate. All horses were exercised three times per week using a horse exerciser.

Ulcer scores were significantly lower for the alfalfa diet than for the Bermuda hay diet, and the 11 horses in the alfalfa group with ulcers at the beginning of the study all improved their ulcer score by at least two grades. However, one horse went the other direction, developing ulcers while on the alfalfa diet. Only five of the 12 horses starting the Bermuda diet with ulcers had ulcer score improvement, and only two of those improved by the two grades or more. Ulcers tended to be worse at the end of the Bermuda diet period.

Another notable finding was that while ulcer scores didn't change significantly from the end of the Bermuda diet to the end of the pastured washout period, they increased significantly from the end of the alfalfa diet to the end of the washout period.

"So only one of 23 horses fed alfalfa worsened vs. 16 of 24 on coastal Bermuda," Cohen summarized. "Eleven of 12 horses on alfalfa remained ulcer-free compared to only three of 12 on Bermuda."

He cautioned that not all alfalfa is created equal, and it's not yet known whether older horses or those exercising more intensely would see the same benefits.

"For some owners, the cost of (the FDA-approved omeprazole product) precludes its use, particularly for purposes of preventing ulceration," Cohen concluded. "Feeding alfalfa hay may represent a useful adjunct to antiulcer treatment for the control and prevention of equine gastric ulcer syndrome."

 

[AnnaC]

Have been reading this thread with great interest. Lots of good - if differing - advice here on a subject that is almost impossible to agree on. Everyone is different and all animals are different. I think it has been shown what suits one wont necessarily suit another. You just have to find what works for you and above all what is right for your horses.

Let me say that I am a 'hay feeder' (agree with Marty on this), but in my original post here I did ask how those that feed little/virtually no hay managed their feeding regime. Taking it that we all know that horses are basically 'trickle' feeders over the best part of 24 hours (in ideal conditions). I would be interested to know how they 'space' their feeds to keep as closely as possible to this ideal.

For instance, many more years ago than I care to admit, my dressage horse suffered from breathing problems. He was allowed no hay (but I did cheat a bit!). He was therefore fed 6 times a day with a complete food, plus a small handful of a herbal mix in a couple of the feeds to provide a taste variety, and when competeing I added a small amount of racehorse cubes to up his protein levels. He was fed 6 times a day between 6am to midnight and at that last feed I used to give him a tiny haynet of about 1/2 a small flake of hay - well soaked - to give him something extra to nibble at during at least part of the night. I should also say that he was stabled 24/7 at the time, but also had a 7th feed mid afternoon of sliced carrots and apples, and had 20 minutes of grazing on good grass(in hand) after his exercise/schooling work.

So I was just interested how folk manage their feeding routine for those minis fed, as I said before, little or no hay.

Anna

 

[Echo Acres]

Mary- I have seen your round pen and I think it is plenty big to exercise your yearlings in. I don't know if your treadmill is flat or has an incline, but you might want to cut back just a little(not do so much in one day). With that said, I am a relatively new learner too. At least with minis (3 years) but had horses all my life. This is a whole new ball of wax. You definately want to take it easy on their legs.

Being from the same area, I am going to have to disagree with several on here that letting the yearlings out to pasture to play keeps them fit enough to show. Well, maybe in their area, but not around here! There is no way. I have seen some members post pictures of nice quality horses, but not what I would call show shape that are winning at the shows around them. Hate to say it folks, but competition around here is high and you need to have quality and the horse must be fit.

Yes the feed is trial and error, we are still working on that. The big thing our feed rep said was to be careful what you are feeding. The minis don't need much grain but do need their vitamins, minerals, and proteins. You need to find a feed that you can feed a small amount and get that for them. The junior is a good feed, and I think as equal to what we are feeding Omelene 200. Oh yeah and a BIG issue with me is suppliments. I have never seen people suppliment so much as the mini people do. I think they are just hurting their horses by over supplimenting and throwing off the balance of their feed. Someone pointed this out and is correct, your feed is a complete feed. You shouldn't need to suppliment with a bunch of things. I am not saying suppliments are bad. Sometimes 1 or 2 might be needed. But I have heard of trainers feeding 5 or 6 suppliments along with a complete feed and alfalfa. YIKES!

Have you thought of Beet Pulp? We are going to try that this year.

 

[mdegner]

Mary- I have seen your round pen and I think it is plenty big to exercise your yearlings in. I don't know if your treadmill is flat or has an incline, but you might want to cut back just a little(not do so much in one day). With that said, I am a relatively new learner too. At least with minis (3 years) but had horses all my life. This is a whole new ball of wax. You definately want to take it easy on their legs.

Being from the same area, I am going to have to disagree with several on here that letting the yearlings out to pasture to play keeps them fit enough to show. Well, maybe in their area, but not around here! There is no way. I have seen some members post pictures of nice quality horses, but not what I would call show shape that are winning at the shows around them. Hate to say it folks, but competition around here is high and you need to have quality and the horse must be fit.

Yes the feed is trial and error, we are still working on that. The big thing our feed rep said was to be careful what you are feeding. The minis don't need much grain but do need their vitamins, minerals, and proteins. You need to find a feed that you can feed a small amount and get that for them. The junior is a good feed, and I think as equal to what we are feeding Omelene 200. Oh yeah and a BIG issue with me is suppliments. I have never seen people suppliment so much as the mini people do. I think they are just hurting their horses by over supplimenting and throwing off the balance of their feed. Someone pointed this out and is correct, your feed is a complete feed. You shouldn't need to suppliment with a bunch of things. I am not saying suppliments are bad. Sometimes 1 or 2 might be needed. But I have heard of trainers feeding 5 or 6 suppliments along with a complete feed and alfalfa. YIKES!

Have you thought of Beet Pulp? We are going to try that this year.

Hey Renee, yeah I'm going to lay off the treadmill on the babies. At one of our next club meetings I'll ask they others what their philosophy is on treadmilling. And yes we've been doing beet pulp.....they love it....see you in cannon falls if you are going

 

[Margo_C-T]

I would agree the most 'completely' with Marty, though must add that there have been SEVERAL who've made excellent points!

There is no 'real' pasture here in the dry desert SW. I do have a large arena for turnout time. I DO weigh my hay, and highly recommend doing so( even though I've been taking care of horses for the past 57 years, so am pretty good at 'estimation'.) I have ALWAYS fed good quality alfalfa, and always will; in fact, this year, may return to a slightly HIGHER % of alfalfa relative to the grass hay, since this is alfalfa-growing 'country', and good grass hay is higher priced AND becoming harder and harder to find. I do NOT believe in 'limiting' hay to horses, but neither do I 'free-feed'(grass hay; I would NEVER suggest 'freefeeding' alfalfa of ANY quality!). I have increasingly been thinking about ways to 'require' horses to eat their hay MORE SLOWLY, making the eating more like grazing, where the forage enters the digestive system very gradually, but continuously--the way horses EVOLVED to eat. I believe the real challenge is to figure out how to accomplish making their forage LAST LONGER, and I am about to seriously try to build, or adapt feeders I already have, to try to accomplish this, based on ideas I've had, and others I've recently come across. I truly believe that, especially for dry-lotted(or even more, stalled) horses, who simply don't get much if any actual grazing, this might do more to ensure their digerstive health than about anything else you can do! "Limiting' hay could be no more than an 'invitation' to digestive disorder like ulcers and colic, not to mention unhappy horses.

I certainly also agree about dropping the treadmill (I personally would not use a treadmill for any horse, period), and like Marty, I don't want youngsters being required to 'go round and round' in a round pen, unless VERY minimally and in a LARGE one!

Mary, I hope you will continue with a open mind, and realize that ALL who have so far replied on this thread have done so because of a primary concern for the well-being of the HORSES. There is NOTHING wrong with that....

Margo

Margo

 

[mdegner]

I would agree the most 'completely' with Marty, though must add that there have been SEVERAL who've made excellent points!

There is no 'real' pasture here in the dry desert SW. I do have a large arena for turnout time. I DO weigh my hay, and highly recommend doing so( even though I've been taking care of horses for the past 57 years, so am pretty good at 'estimation'.) I have ALWAYS fed good quality alfalfa, and always will; in fact, this year, may return to a slightly HIGHER % of alfalfa relative to the grass hay, since this is alfalfa-growing 'country', and good grass hay is higher priced AND becoming harder and harder to find. I do NOT believe in 'limiting' hay to horses, but neither do I 'free-feed'(grass hay; I would NEVER suggest 'freefeeding' alfalfa of ANY quality!). I have increasingly been thinking about ways to 'require' horses to eat their hay MORE SLOWLY, making the eating more like grazing, where the forage enters the digestive system very gradually, but continuously--the way horses EVOLVED to eat. I believe the real challenge is to figure out how to accomplish making their forage LAST LONGER, and I am about to seriously try to build, or adapt feeders I already have, to try to accomplish this, based on ideas I've had, and others I've recently come across. I truly believe that, especially for dry-lotted(or even more, stalled) horses, who simply don't get much if any actual grazing, this might do more to ensure their digerstive health than about anything else you can do! "Limiting' hay could be no more than an 'invitation' to digestive disorder like ulcers and colic, not to mention unhappy horses.

I certainly also agree about dropping the treadmill (I personally would not use a treadmill for any horse, period), and like Marty, I don't want youngsters being required to 'go round and round' in a round pen, unless VERY minimally and in a LARGE one!

Mary, I hope you will continue with a open mind, and realize that ALL who have so far replied on this thread have done so because of a primary concern for the well-being of the HORSES. There is NOTHING wrong with that....

Margo

Margo

Margo, I like your ideas about some kind of device that would slow down their eating thereby allowing them graze for a longer period of time. The gal from England was making some similar points about the nature of horses and we how reconcile limiting feeding with their natural need to graze. Good luck with that. I'm sure if you can figure something out, there would be a nice market for it.

Followup on the little guy, we ended up having the vet come out last night because he just didn't seem right. The vet thought he had spastic colic and possible intestinal unbalance. Oddly enough, he thought we were giving him too much food......Gave him banamene, mineral oil and some thing I can't even spell to re-balance the intestinal system. They also took blood and stool. We talked to the vet today and it turns out he has a low red blood cell count due to some liver enzyme problem. This reduced his immune system and made him more prone to other things like bloat, colic, runny nose if the weather changed, etc. He has us giving him 250 mgs of Echinacea a day for the next month and we'll re-check his blood. I'm going to do some research on liver enzymes and try and get a handle on that. The vet said it wasn't something that's terminal but didn't really have any explanation beyond that.

Regarding continuing with an open mind, I also have the well being of horses in mind which is why I asked the question in the first place. I learned my lesson and will be extremely careful how I phrase things in the future. I may have been a bit thin-skinned but there were posts that made it sound as though I might end up on the ASPCA 10 Ten Most Wanted poster........enough said. Best, Mary

 

[kaykay]

Mary

I hope I was not one that made you feel bad. I only try to help. I never want to discourage anyone or make anyone feel bad. For some reason in all the years I have been here feed always turns into a hot topic. If some of my comments were blunt its because I am on mare stare and fighting a horrible cold. I have averaged about 3 hours sleep per night for the last 2 weeks

Everyone just has to feed the way they feel is best. No two horses here get the same feed. Seems like everyone needs something different.

In reply to some posts above. I feel that almost every area is very competitive. I dont know if the comments about "some areas not being competitive" were directed tword me. But I can say when we show we are up against Getita (buckeye walnut creek) Doc Taylor, Little King, Amber Montgomery, Snowberry, LTd etc etc. I love showing with and against these farms as they make me better and are always willing to give advise. Not easy competition around here at all! I do agree that you should be careful about taking advice. Some people that give showing advice only show at open shows and have rarely been to a rated show or have never shown their own horses.

My whole thing in showing is to be competitive but still keep the horses best interest first. Its hard to do sometimes and sometimes a very fine line. There are just certain things I will not do just to get a ribbon. As much as I love showing in the bigger scheme of life its just a very small portion of a horses life.

I hope your guy feels better soon!! Sending good thoughts to him!