Question for all you experienced breeders

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js1arab

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OK, first let me say I am not a huge fan of breeding two yr olds. Let me also clarify that when I decided to try breeding, I felt like I was fairly well informed I didn't just say hey, let's see how fun it would be to see the miracle of life - because that's not how it works. It's dangerous business and I do know that, but like many people, I have found many things I need better understanding of.
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My question is - how many of you do breed 2 yr olds, what has your experience been with them and this is why I ask. I have a filly who is shown by my kids and I had planned on possibly breeding her as a 3 yr old. This yr she has come into heat hot and heavy and is about to pee herself to death or at least into serious dehydration
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: It is driving both her and my stallion crazy. They are both super easy to handle and they usually go to shows togther and we never had a problem until now. But I am concerned that number one, it may be (well it is) harder for her to focus on the task at hand. She's still a peach to work with, but thinks she's all that already so she doesn't need anything else to distract her LOL. My 7 yr old was so excited to show her again this yr and he especially loves obstacle so I want them to be safe. Also, everytime she pees she gets it all over her tail and legs. I'm already having to hose her to keep her from scalding. It would be a mess to have all that during a show. I also don't want to have to worry about it upsetting someone else's stallion. I know a simple option would be to just keep her home, but she and my stallion are the two show horses and obviously a 7 yr old can't show a stallion (even though he behaves better than a lot of mares -but that's off topic)

She is the youngest mare I've had around since owning a stallion. One of my mares was more mature when I got my stallion and the other was an experienced breeder so I don't know if this is something that will pass after a cycle or two or will she always be like this. It is incredibly sleezy LOL. Again, I don't like the idea of using a two yr old, but it would make life much simpler and easier on her and the stallion as they could be together without worry. But I also know that is the lazy persons way out. When I evaluated her this spring. I felt like she was still slightly immature looking. She's always been full of herself so I think that's just her not necessarily immature mentally, but who's to know until she get's older.

Just looking for thoughts from breeders who are much more experienced than myself. Please don't flame. I've already said that I know it would be the lazy thing for me to breed her just to simplify my life. But it WOULD make life much easier.
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: I want to know all the negatives though so I can weigh the decission. I want to know if breeding as a two yr old significantly alters their appearance at a much earlier age (i.e. do they get sway back earlier in life than if bred at 3) do they have a tougher time with labor, nutritionally does it seem to hurt the growth and overall health of a 2 vs 3 yr old etc. I want to get everyone's opinion. I'm leaning towards just gritting my teeth and trying to survive this messy, smelly, hormonal, totally unlady-like stage, but thought I'd at least see what others thought. Thanks for any help!

P.S. If anyone would like to see her to get a better idea of her maturity, I have a yearling picture of her on my website (her name is Scarlet) I figure if you think she looked decent as a yearling, she's only gotten more mature as a 2 yr old. But of course we all have a set of barn eyes that don't always see what the rest of the world sees so a seasoned breeder may see her as more or less mature than I do
 
I don't know how experienced you need to be to answer this, but personally I won't breed a 2 year old. I'm actually leaning towards holding off with many of our mares until they're at least 4 and some will be a full 5 before they're bred. Is it hard to do, sure.

It's like having a room full of Christmas presents and being told you can't open them until 2008 or 2009! That is rough!

But the reality is a mare is productive up until she's in her 20's (in most cases). So even if I (or all of us!) held off breeding until a mare is 5 - that still leaves 15 years or a potential of 15 foals! Add that up to the number of minis out there!

From a health perspective, you should really ask your vets opinion. There are many sources regarding the nutritional requirements of a pregnant mare which you can check against the nutritional requirements, physical needs of a two year old.

When we got our first minis we were told to breed two year olds. That was the accepted practice, hey and you get an early foal out of your investment right? Not a good idea in my opinion.

For the specific reasons I won't breed two year olds:

- Just because they can, doesn't mean they should! Teenage girls can get pregnant, but we don't encourage it.

- We don't technically consider a mini 'mature' until three for AMHR or five for AMHA - so why breed a two year old? Large horses aren't considered mature until they're well past five years.

- Many minis aren't physically mature or mentally mature - again they may have the want, but not the need. We have lots of harlots here that love to tease the boys, but I'm not going to allow them to be bred for that reason alone.

- The two mares we've had to put down here from foaling problems were both two year olds that someone else had bred (we were foaling out) and both had pelvic/cervical openings that were to small (one was 28" the other 32") to deliver the foal. We didn't own the horses, but the owner chose to have them put down as they were no longer 'broodmares' and she wouldn't pay for C-sections.

On the opposite end of this, I have two 23 year old mares desperately wanting to get pregnant again. One has had 16 foals and although she might successfully carry a 17th or 18th or ?, do I really need to push her to do that? Her last two (she wasn't bred last year), really slowed her down. She's doing better not pregnant or nursing a foal. But from a business perspective I know a number of breeders that would - they view their mares as cash cows, once they don't produce they're gone! I view my two old ladies as having given wonderful gifts to me with their foals over the years, and it's now my job to give them a wonderful retirement. Truth be told, the second mare if she's as fit as she is this year (she was open this year), and is wanting to get pregnant with her 14th foal I might breed her. Every breeding we undertake is very seriously thought out and considered.

You'll have to figure out what is right for your horse and your situation though. None of us are in your shoes or know your mare and what would be best for her.
 
There are many other ways you can stop heat besides pregnancy. If that is what you want to do, talk to your Vet about it.

If you actually want to breed her, and I have bred two year olds without any problems, then you, and you alone can answer the question as to whether or not she is ready.

I have bred a two year old this year who is mature and will be OK- I am on a promise with Rabbit at 27 years old and I really want a foal by him out of this mare.

Selfish?? Yes, but she will have extra special care taken because I am well aware of this fact.

So- IF what you want to do is breed the filly, think hard and long and follow your conscience- the Vet can only give you another opinion in this matter, Vets are not usually the experts in this sort of thing.

I am far more interested in the owner/breeders feelings, they know the hors so much better.

You have two options.

Breeding her is no safeguard the seasons will stop, or that she will get in foal, but chemical interference is.

You have to decide which option to go for.

Good Luck
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Rabbit, I forgot to mention I had thought about the chemical thing. I have a friend who's mare I feel has a true hormonal issue as she will be at a show doing perfect, being an angel then out of the blue -squatting and peeing and turns quite unpredictable. She is a QH so much mor edangerous for her. She tried the Regumate route to keep her from coming in. It is expensive to keep her on all summer so she puts her on it a couple weeks before a show (she only goes to a couple) and it does seem to help if she remembers to keep her on it. Me on the other hand...I am incredibly forgetful at times and I know I'd forget to start it on time (I keep a calendar in front of me at the computer so I'll know what's happening but sometimes forget to look at it LOL) If I need to choose between chemical/staying at home or toughing it out. I think I'll try getting through it for awhile as long as it is safe for my son. My next choice I think will be just to stay home.

Is there any hope that this will get better after a cycle or two.

Again, my two other mares had already gone through heat cycles before I had a stallion and they weren't like this. I know all humans cycle differently with different levels of discomfort (I really know that-but that's off topic again LOL) I am hoping she will level out and go into a more quiet heat. She isn't really hard to handle. She just doesn't concentrate as well and she pees every 10 seconds - I'm truly not exaggerating on that. And she has been doing this for going on two weeks straight now
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: I guess I'd really like more than anything to hear everyone's experience with two yr old heat patterns. I wasn't real sold on the idea of breeding a two yr old so if some of you can hold my hand and convince me she will quit acting like a well- you know what. then I'd prefer not to cover her this year. Just so others know. I am not flaming or condemning those who do breed young mares. I just don't have as much experience so I worry. I think lots of things can be done and done safely if a person has the knowledge. I love Arabs and some breeders do use inbreeding (not line breeding but actual inbreeding) to a small extent to "set" good traits. But you have to really understand what you're doing. I guess I feel that way about young mares, you just need to be experienced, but I need a few more seasons as this year was only my fourth foaling year and I only cover one or two mares per yr.

I'd still love to hear everyones thoughts and even though I probably won't breed her, this topic may help others in this situation so let's go ahead on continue the debate if all are willing. Thanks guys for any responses :saludando:
 
If your main goal is just to keep her from coming in heat so the kids can still show her, I would put her on Regumate during a show. This is very common to do that with mares that are on the show circuit. It can be started a day or two before leaving for the show, given everyday during the show, then stopped when you come home. It will keep her from cycling and all will be well at the show.
 
I have not bred any at two yet myself - I do however OWN 2 mares that were bred when they were two. One has had 3 foals (and a year off now) and is being rebred this year - and has not had any problems that I am aware of -- the other has practically had a foal a year -- since she was 2 -- I gave her a couple of years off in there - and she is in her teens -- looking fine and demanding that she be bred this year - horrible flirt!!

So -- although I would not recommend it -- I have two mares who have done well in spite of it.

I tried to access your website (from the link in your signature) and it wanted a password -- so could not go look.

JJay
 
I would like to ask a question regarding the use of Regumate. This is in no way an accusation, I'm just wanting information. I am not up to date on all the chemical information.

If you use Regumate to keep a mare from coming in heat, does it stand a chance of messing up her productivity later on? I hate to compare horses to humans, but I have known of many women who have used the pill for birth control and then when they went off they were unable to get pregnant.
 
We have been breeding since 86 & all of the mares were bred at age two unless we were showing them or they did not take. I'm guessing perhaps a dozen or so ........ Out of those two year old mares we had 2-3 mares that I now say should not have been bred until three or later... The resulting foals did not make it. After the fact, I concluded the mares were not mature enough............. Our current maiden mare is now three & any mares in the future will not be bred until at least age three either.
 
I have bred the rare 2 year old filly in the past. It is not the end of the world. However, I no longer breed 2 year old fillies. I don't see the point in breeding them that early, and I have plenty of mature, experienced mares to pick from. Nowdays, I even wait until age 4 for some smaller fillies. I've just seen too much heartbreak with the young inexperienced mares and I personally have decided to wait until AT LEAST age 3 to increase my chances of a live birth, and of maternal bonding. Maiden mares are nerve-wracking enough, even at age 4 and 5.
 
I have used Regumate to regulate heats in mares that were very heavy and not setting .

It had no effect on their breeding record, in fact at the level it was being given- to aid heat not stop it- it just stopped the heats being over heavy or long and the mare did set.

I think you should talk to your Vet about this- and if s/he does not know enough get a referral to a reproduction specialist.

The amount given to a Mini is tiny and should not be expensive.
 
I never find the decision to breed a matter to be taken lightly, so I at least applaud you for opening yourself up to opinions.

I have to agree that the Regumate route would be healthiest for your mare, especially since there are so many risks to take. It is hard on a mare to be in foal, and it is hard on a horse to show, so remember you will be DOUBLING the physical demands of your horse if you ask it do do BOTH.

What do you show your horse in? If it is halter, a broodmare may find it more difficult to compete against the trim, open mares in her class. If it is jumping or driving, this is very physically demanding. Most people retire their show horses to breed, and the majority do not do both.

Also, breeding will not neccessarily ease your mare's hormones and temperament. My mare is MORE cranky when she is in foal and MORE aggressive and intolerant of other horses... so what THEN?

Your vet should be able to give you the best advice. ReguMate is somewhat expensive, but you will not be dosing a full size horse so it's not that bad!

Andrea
 
LOL Disney, my horses already find it hard to compete with the trim ones :bgrin Mine tend to be pasture brats as much as show horses so they are all out of figure compared to the stalled and conditioned ones. My stallion looks almost preggers next to those long lean guys he's up against
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: But then we show to have fun with our horses and to show off our work with handling them. We aren't going for the top dog prizes. We show for fun in halter, showmanship, obstacle and hopefully this year driving. The kids have also done costume. Today the mare only peed three times when I was putting my stallion in and her out so hopefully she's slowing down, but still, 3 times is still smelly messy business :new_shocked: But in the long run the mess from this isn't worth the heartache of something happening to her and since I'm hoping she'll be a perminent fixture around here I want to keep her in sound shape to be a show horse at the fun level for the kids so I don't want to wreck her just because I'd rather be lazy and not deal with the mess. If this keeps up though I may pursue the ReguMate since my youngest really is wanting to go to a couple shows.
 
I havent read others answers but I would not do it - the way I see it a 2 yr old isnt ready to ride, a 2 yr old isnt ready to drive, or jump due to bones not being fused, being hard on the legs needing time to grow up.. they have there WHOLE lives in front of them so for me I dont see the reason to do it. NO different then a 13 yr old can have a baby doesnt mean they are truly ready. So for me I wouldnt opt for it
 
js1arab you are always so level headed and kind so I'm glad you are thinking this one through very carefully before you jumped into breeding your little girl. I can only imagine that you are at your wits end with her peeing all over herself to these proportions and I would be concerned too. I have used regumate in the past on 2 of my quarter horse mares that came in horribly hard heat cycles that were very difficult on them, and it never affected them getting bred.

For the life of me, I cannot even imagine why anyone would breed a two year old, (but in your case, I could understand why it's running through your mind,) and I find it amazing how so many people here are doing it. Flame me if you want to, I don't care, but I think it's appalling, and that's putting it mildy.

If I had a 13 year old daughter suffering badly from cramps I would never suggest that she go get herself pregnant.
 
Generally speaking, Marty I would agree with you and do not consider a two year automatically "breeding ready", even though all my fillies are breeding prospects.

My advice when someone asks this question is always top wait. BUT there are exceptions. Some fillies are ready to breed at two and come to no harm from doing so.

I have to say though that of thefew Mini mares I have bred as two year olds I have lost two foals and failed to get another mare in foal until she was five!!

Then I have two mares that have been breeding since they were three- first foal at three- that were both bred by mistake (MY mistake!!) and they are absolutely fine, no problems at all.

And the filly I had foal when I did not even, to my eternal shame, know was in foal and who foaled down all on her ownsome in a field full of geldings (she was in the diet field) and, again, was absolutely fine.

I think, basically, the rule with two year olds is there is no rule- each one must be taken individually.

It is not the same as a teenage girl- in the wild the mares get in foal as soon as they are fertile, end of story.

Of course we take better care of our animals than when they fend for themselves, but the fact remains that a lot of mares are quite mature enough to carry a foal at two.

I always bred the Arabs at two- I made sure they were in condition and ready to do so.

I backed them very, very lightly at two, just ground work and sit on , and then they went in foal.

They foaled at three and by the time the foal was weaned it was going into winter so they were a full four years old before they were worked at all.

After that I figured they were ready for about anything.

But with Minis, I know people have different ways of thinking.

In this case I would say it is NOT the answer, but, in another, it might be.

Jacky is obviously weighing up the pros and cons and I trust her to make the right decision on this, for the filly.
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I would go with the Regumate; if your kids want to show this filly for the next couple, three or more years then in future years you'd be looking at hauling her and a foal to the shows--which has its drawbacks too.

As far as your question about whether this will be a one or two cycle thng & then she will level out & have heats that are less strong--I personally wouldn't count on that. It could happen, but I find that the mares that have strong heats & will "show" to anything & everything do it routinely every heat cycle. Breeding her now in hopes that once she has had a foal she will be less obvious when she's in heat--not likely. Our broodmares, when they are left open, are just sluts--showing to everything; a stallion can call from two paddocks away & they will be squatting & peeing.
 
Thank you Marty and Rabbit for having the faith in me to make the right decission for her. As I said, I personally think she could use a bit more maturity especially mentally. She is my prankster and always trying to get somebody to play with her and if they won't she pesters them tirelessly
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: I was hoping the responses would be that after a few hot cycles she'd settle down. But it appears that isn't the case and I'm not convinced (especially after reading the replies) that breeding is the answer. My ideal is to have two or three mares and breed one mare per year and the other two can be our show horses for that year. If it ends up that this mare does need to be on ReguMate every year or stay in foal, I may look for her a home that wants a friendly easy to handle broodmare or simply a wonderful pet where she won't be around stallions at all. I don't want her to "HAVE" to be on medicine in order to be happy. And I can't think being in a raging hormone fit all the time would make her very happy.
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Maybe you can just set your fields up so that she is not in that much direct contact with your stallion. Most of my fields adjoin. I use one field for my stallion that is on the same fencline as one of my mare fields. That makes it easy for me to see who is showing to him by them running up to him at the fence. The ones I don't want involved, I put in another field that does not adjoin his.

I have two 3 year olds that have pretty hard heat cycles, or did. Chrissy and Merry Beth. Last year I thought I would go crazy with them, so after re-fencing, I'll put them where they aren't exposed to him and their stalls are on the opposite end of the barn too. They seemed to grow out of their heat being so "drippy" and over exaggerated now during the heat. I swear they were cramping horribly. I was very tempted to breed them this year but in my heart of hearts I'd feel safer starting them when they are 4 instead. Besides, with my track record so far, I may have three more colts next year and this place will be really rocking! I think I must be on very fertile ground.

Best wishes for success in whatever decision that you make. If you decide to breed her after all, I am possitive that you will be very dilligent and attentive to her every need.
 

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