POLL CROSS ENTERING OF ASPC/AMHR HORSES AT SAME SHOW

[JMS Miniatures]

WHOOO HOOO!!!

 

[ruffian]

Deleted - apparently offensive to too many people

 

[disneyhorse]

Here's a thought - if you want to register your 38" or smaller ASPC as a MINI, then throw out the ASPC papers. That's how this all started.

Would then throwing the ASPC papers away magically transform the animal into a mini?

 

[Minimor]

Apparently so, Andrea? Thing is, not all Shetland papers did get thrown away when the ponies were Mini registered...I've asked this before & no one answered...are those that kept their Shetland papers at time of AMHR registration (years ago when AMHR was just starting) less Mini than those that had their Shetland papers thrown away???

Another thought which I keep forgetting...JMS has posted about requiring qualification for Congress and now ruffian mentions it too....I would suggest that if it were to be ruled that Shetlands must qualify in order to show at Congress then it should also be ruled that in order for a show to be AMHR sanctioned it must also include a full ASPC show (all divisions).

 

[Belinda]

Ruffian,

You know up until this post , I thought we were all doing a great job staying civil , Really there is no aneed to bash the folks that want to show in the Aspc classes and have ask the shows to put in some classes for them !!! And how is that hurting YOU as a Mini exhibitor ?? It brings more revenue in for the shows , And did you ever think that those sheltand folks might like to a put HALL OF FAME titles on their pony's the same as You do on YOUR mini's and they can not do that by going to Congress ONLY !!

 

I tell you I am in the Mini breeders corner 100 % , But Don't slam the Pony exhibitors and their right to show at any show that the club agrees to put in the classes . No one can gurantee how many horses will show up at a show .. How can you say they do not warrent asking to have classes put in for them to show in ?? What if those shows felt that same way the day the Miniture Horse ( shetlands really) ask to have those first Mini classes put in at a show ?? Why Why would you turn this in this direction , We ALL BELONG TO THE SAME CLUB !!

I guess I had better stop at this , but I have busted my butt , posting , debating and standing in YOUR corner this weekend as a Director , a Miniature Breeder and yes I own well over a 100 of what you might want to call STRAIGHT MINIATURES ,!! But then I also started in Shetlands and own a small group of Classic Shetlands with MOST being well over the Mini Height and many that are double reg. So I feel that your post was a total slap in the face to me for everything I have tried to do for you this weekend , Never once did the Shetland folks say WE do not want those minis at our show !! Once again we are ONE Club , and should not fight among our own breeds ... There is room for all of us !!

..

Ok it has been a long weekend and I feel a very productive weekend for many aspects of the ASPC/AMHR.

 

[ruffian]

Belinda - I am NOT slamming the Shetlands. What I am saying is that in the past the Miniature Shows in Michigan had Shetland classes. Every year the numbers dropped until there were virtually no ponies showing at all. Those shows have 80 to 100+ Miniatures. If you offer the classes, you have to be prepared to distribute the ribbons, etc., for each class. That is why the pony classes were eliminated. It's very expensive to have all those extra costs and have no income to offset the costs. It's absolutely not a slam against them, or them vs us. It's simply a fact that IN MICHIGAN the ponies have not been showing at the local level for the clubs to keep their classes on the showbills. As example, at the last show that had pony classes, ONE pony showed. They walked away with their class ribbon, champion dsash and trophy, and grand champion sash and trophy. Ball park about $50 in awards. They Paid entries for one class (their halter class) - $20. The club also had ribbons for the other classes, champion and reserve sashes and trophies, and reserve grand champion awards. So for one pony to show, probably cost the club about $200. The other club had already eliminated their pony classes due to lack of entries.

I like Shetlands. Love to see them move. But unless they are getting out to the local level and showing as ponies, they are going to be shut out of more shows simply due to economics. If there is enough people willing to get out there and show their ponies, the clubs may look at adding the classes back in. But one or two ponies won't be enough for most clubs to add the classes. It's got to be enough to be profitable for the clubs to add them.

Would it help if they could show as dual registered animals at a show, probably. Will some folks love it? Yes. Will some folks hate it? yes. But I am NOT one of those who would hate it. I'm just expressing my thoughts as a Miniature Horse breeder for over 30 years.

 

[Belinda]

Well. LOL. You could have fooled me ! However there are many ways to make your shows work with the classes added. Heck offer the classes and if the pony owners want $50 prizes have them sponsor the class and if they don t then they get no award just points. And I can tell you lots would be good with that, and glad you have been in the minis for 30 yrs Myself it has been a lifetime and way more years than I care to admit. But it is my intent as long as I am in this director seat , to try and do what is in in the best interest of AMHR and ASPC and the members that belong to this club regardless of what horse or pony the choose to own.

 

[kaykay]

We ALL BELONG TO THE SAME CLUB !!

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I second and third that!! If you read this thread and didn't know better you would think we all belong to two different associations. Its one association!

Ruffian I truly do not think you realize how offensive your post comes off. Maybe step back for a minute and read it with neutral eyes.

I have sold several ASPC/AMHR and ASPC horses up your way. The biggest complaint I hear is the lack of pony classes. So there are people in Michigan that truly want those classes in. When they do not have these classes they are forced to either drive further to another state or they leave them home. I have been told that the clubs there are very negative about putting those classes in.

Belinda I am glad they are going to put it to the membership!

Minimor we all know there are quite a few shetland/miniatures that never lost their papers. Those are the ones that are often ASPC/AMHR/AMHA. In my eyes it makes them more of a "miniature" then any of the rest LOL. They for sure have the longest recorded pedigrees.

I sincerely hope that no one ever throws registration papers away on any ASPC horse again. It was such a loss when that happened. To suggest it be done again is just crazy to me.

 

[ahrobertspony]

I think everyone would do well to remember ... there is no ASPC membership or AMHR membership ... or ASPR or NSPR memberships for that matter. There is ONE organization. THAT IS WHAT WE ALL belong to. Frankly, everyone should be proud to belong to one of the oldest equine organizations in this country ... an organization that has managed to weather more ups & downs than anyone who has been a member less than 50 years can even begin to imagine.

It is a multi-breed organization. Sometimes when considering one matter, there are more aspects to be considered than most of us can possible imagine ... from balancing needs of various subsegments to legal matters (everything from the Disabilities act to not-for-profit law) to fiduciary matters to governing laws of the state of incorporation.

I can absolutely, positively, without doubt or reservation tell you this:

This board of directors is committed to doing the right things, balancing the needs of ALL divisions and members, incentivizing & giving back to the membership when possible, promoting the breeds to the extent the budget allows, sussing out all the ramifications AND working increasingly hard to do things in the right way. Do they always all agree on how to best do that? No. But they do try to work together and hash it out to come to that end result.

Most of us can't even imagine all of the various aspects that need to come up on ANY MATTER this group must consider and review because of our overall size and diversity. Then, when you factor in IL not-for-profit states & state law (which has to come to play on many things) as well as legal advice needed on a a variety of concerns, there is a lot to be considered for everything.

I went to the board meeting. I was impressed with this group's commitment to making the right decisions ... and... more importantly their emphasis on making decisions the right way. There commitment to the financial picture as well as re-upping their service to the members is ... without doubt... unparalled.

I just want to thank them all for their hard work and efforts.

 

[disneyhorse]

In response to having very few ponies showing when classes are offered...

In my area there has always been lots of mini shows... It is easier to buy and show horses when there are lots of shows. Why would someone buy and breed registered horses if there is never a hope to show them? I am one who believes ( and I know many do not) that breeding stock and offspring should hold their own in an actual show ring against others of their kind, and if they're not placing well they should be replaced with horses that are. That is kind of the point. Otherwise, the show ring is for fun (chariot and costume are obvious examples) so that we have somewhere to enjoy our registered animals.

What IS the point of showing, think about that.

If your stock can't hold it's own in halter and this is important to you, get animals who can.

I still don't believe that judges are blindly picking animals just because they are also ASPC. I have seen PLENTY of amhr only horses winning and I have great respect for the judges for the most part. I don't think that papers make the horse... Ive seen TONS of horribly conformed Shetlands so I fail to see how Shetland papers magically make a horse a winner in the ring and a lack of them make it impossible for a horse to compete. I think it's pure stereotype... I hope people can all be more open minded someday.

If getting the Shetlands to be more popular so they show more is important to you, this rule change would only encourage more entries. If we've got a lot of mini shetlands showing, then they may cross enter and you won't get that single pony walking away with your one $50 award. There would be more competition and everyone would win.

So ruffian I don't see how you can be against this and yet it would solve many of your gripes???

Bottom line I feel that papers don't make the horse's quality though...

 

[disneyhorse]

I don't even have an area show here in CA this year, and in the past ten years there have been few if any pony shows in southern CA. What would encourage me to go out and buy a huge herd of show quality stock and spend time shoeing and training them so that in the event of an ASPC show popping up here I have a string of ponies to enter? Those around me who do/have such a show string has had the time, money, and ability to travel very far away to WA or OR or UT to show additionally. If classes aren't consistently offered, it's very tough to support the Registry.

 

[susanne]

^^^

THIS

 

[ruffian]

In response to having very few ponies showing when classes are offered...

In my area there has always been lots of mini shows... It is easier to buy and show horses when there are lots of shows. Why would someone buy and breed registered horses if there is never a hope to show them? I am one who believes ( and I know many do not) that breeding stock and offspring should hold their own in an actual show ring against others of their kind, and if they're not placing well they should be replaced with horses that are. That is kind of the point. Otherwise, the show ring is for fun (chariot and costume are obvious examples) so that we have somewhere to enjoy our registered animals.

What IS the point of showing, think about that.

If your stock can't hold it's own in halter and this is important to you, get animals who can.

I still don't believe that judges are blindly picking animals just because they are also ASPC. I have seen PLENTY of amhr only horses winning and I have great respect for the judges for the most part. I don't think that papers make the horse... Ive seen TONS of horribly conformed Shetlands so I fail to see how Shetland papers magically make a horse a winner in the ring and a lack of them make it impossible for a horse to compete. I think it's pure stereotype... I hope people can all be more open minded someday.

If getting the Shetlands to be more popular so they show more is important to you, this rule change would only encourage more entries. If we've got a lot of mini shetlands showing, then they may cross enter and you won't get that single pony walking away with your one $50 award. There would be more competition and everyone would win.

So ruffian I don't see how you can be against this and yet it would solve many of your gripes???

Bottom line I feel that papers don't make the horse's quality though...

Whoa people. I DON'T have GRIPES about Shetlands. I guess this will be my last post. FYI - I voted FOR having them show in both divisions. I think it would absolutely increase entries in the pony classes. I was talking about what has ALREADY happened in Michigan. Pony Classes were not supported and were dropped by the clubs offering them. This is proven historical fact. I did NOT say I was against this. I'm just wondering where all the pony folks were when the classes WERE being offered? Thanks everybody. I'm done.

 

[MindyLee]

Whoa people. I DON'T have GRIPES about Shetlands. I guess this will be my last post. FYI - I voted FOR having them show in both divisions. I think it would absolutely increase entries in the pony classes. I was talking about what has ALREADY happened in Michigan. Pony Classes were not supported and were dropped by the clubs offering them. This is proven historical fact. I did NOT say I was against this. I'm just wondering where all the pony folks were when the classes WERE being offered? Thanks everybody. I'm done.

I agree with the pony classes not here in MI. Ponies are growing popular (only reciently) but not enough of them at the shows yet. Just like AMHA, they stopped here in MI because not enough folks entering there as well and now they are gone too. I am a mini horse breeder of 34" and under only and would LOVE to compeate in AMHA shows, BUT MI wont bring it here because of the bad resaults in the past. I believe Ruffin is saying that this is the same thing with the ponies too. Maybe soon we will have both ponys and "A" classes/shows again but not until more interest and folks stepping up a begging for them. Lack of funds = no shows/classes. Until the funds can be accounted for, then the shows/classes will come...

 

[Filipowicz Farm]

We have had a aspc/amhr horse that went over as a yearling or two year old and when showing in area 2 there are not that many shows that do the ponies and if they do we are the only one in the class. This would let the aspc/amhr horses that are shown as a mini to cross over at the same show and compete aspc. It would save some money for the excibitor by being able to show their horses in both mini and Shetland and I think help the horses that are just Shetland get there points easier.I heard this was once done in the beginning and changed to just showing in either division. Why not bring it back again if that is the case since there are many more aspc/amhr horses here in the States and in Canada

 

[horsefeather]

I totally agree with LaVern.