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crponies

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One of the faults that I see all the time, even in winning miniature horses, is camped-out. A horse's cannon bones will be perpendicular to the ground (so I know it is not just a case of the way they are set up) and if you drew a line from the buttocks down it would be in front of the cannon bones. I have also noticed this in American Shetlands. Do you think this is an acceptable fault? What problems does it cause? (I have some idea it would make it harder for the horse to gets its hind legs under itself for good collection.) Are there any other faults you feel get overlooked a lot?
 

disneyhorse

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Crponies... do you think this overall fault is that the horse is actually camped out, or that it has a very shallow/weak hip?

That said... minis often have lowset necks, large heads, upright shoulders, long backs, weak hips, lowset tails, short upright pasterns, and clubby feet! These are very very common faults!

Andrea
 

crponies

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I hadn't thought of it that way. I'll have to pay more attention to the hip on those camped-out horses. Hmmmm
 

disneyhorse

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Yeah... usually those two faults really go hand-in-hand in the minis... check it out.

Andrea
 

Vertical Limit

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One of the faults that I see all the time, even in winning miniature horses, is camped-out.
I have brought this up a number of times. I have commented that if these were riding horses all our teeth we be jarred out of our head. It's one of the major faults I see with minis as well as minis being post legged. No wonder there are so many stifle problems. I have seen National Champions so camped out I have to wonder how it won a prize.

I know judges have to pick the best of the worst or the horses they feel have best of the worst faults (if that makes sense) but I guarantee if these were riding horses the thinking on it would change drastically. There is no way a camped out horse can get underneath himself well enough to establish any sort of collection or any sort or drive from the rear. Very, very poor performance horse candidates. And a post legged horse is so rough you would not want to ride it and it probably would not remain sound enough to ride.

Weak rears, poorly shaped, underslung necks, club feet, and heads too big for bodies are the other things I have seen that seem to be so rampant in the industry.
 
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bingo

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I think weak hips is one of the most common faults in minis and ponies. I have seen many shetland handlers feel if they really really park out the pony you might not notice the weak hip thinking it is part of how the pony is set up. This is very common in minis as well and some mini handlers follow suit. While I do find more minis with lower neck sets I tend to see more ewe necks on a lot of shetlands. I think both breeds still really need much more culling.
 
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Minimor

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I would have to say that the most overlooked fault in Minis is a poor hindquarter in general. yes, I see lots that are camped out, and many/most of those do have an overall poor hip otherwise. Often you'll have a horse with a nice front end, and then there's that rather awful hindquarter just kind of poomped onto the end of the horse, looking like it really doesn't even belong on that horse. Sometimes it's a real slack rear end, often it's a rather thickset, bulky looking butt that in spite of it's bulky appearance comes with a very short hip and low tailset. Then there are the thin, straight stifles. Sadly, so many people don't seem to recognize this fault at all. Many cannot recognize a poor hip when they see it, and even more don't know what poor stifle conformation looks like. Worse, there are those that don't even look at the rear end. They see a pretty head and a nice neck, and I honestly think some of them don't look beyond that.

Stretching will not help with poor hip conformation--trust me, I see many horses stretched out & they actually look worse stretched than they do stood square. On the other hand, stretching will not ruin a good hip--a good hip will look like a good hip whether the horse is square or stretched, though over-stretching is not so flattering to any horse. Stretching does not make a horse appear to be camped out if it isn't, nor doesn't it hide camped out conformation. If you stretch a horse that is camped out, if you run a line up the back of his legs, with that line touching the back of the fetlock and the back of the hock, that line will not intersect the horse's rear end. On a horse with proper hind end conformation, when you run that line up the back of his legs when he is in a stretched pose, the line will always intersect the hindquarter.
 

bluerogue

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I've had friends tell me I'm a butt person... I look at the hips first. If I don't like the hips on a horse, and it can be absolutely perfect in every other way (conformation, pedigree, mind, movement), I won't like it at all.

Hips are so overlooked in minis it's terrible. It's an extremely common fault to have "bad" hips. Other common faults include ugly necks (for several different conformational problems: underslung, ewe, thick necks), big heads, unattractive heads (we have a mare who looks like someone punched her in the forehead-she has a perfect place to rest your fist right between her eyes), and bad legs and feet. Also, I've noticed a great deal of minis tend to have long backs. A good short back seems to be hard to find.

These are the main faults I can think of at the moment that I've seen repeatedly, and most commonly.
 

FSGemstoneMiniatures

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Hi all!

This is a really interesting thread. I think a lot of people (including me) would like to see some photos about the things mentioned here. I'm especially thinking about the weak hips..

I know it's probably somewhat delicate, but I hope someone has the courage to post a photo of their horse with a fault like the ones above..
 

Jill

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This doesn't exactly answer the question, but I think the more "interestingly" or "nicely" colored a horse is, the more likely it is that the poor quality underneath the color will be overlooked.
 

midnight star stables

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That said... minis often have lowset necks, large heads, upright shoulders, long backs, weak hips, lowset tails, short upright pasterns, and clubby feet! These are very very common faults!Andrea

This doesn't exactly answer the question, but I think the more "interestingly" or "nicely" colored a horse is, the more likely it is that the poor quality underneath the color will be overlooked.


Also, my pet peeve is rump high horses!

Jill, I also have to agree... SO many appys and overo seem to have huge faults.... And they are producing those same faults again and again.... But "Oh just look at the colour!" ...Not all, but many
 

Jill

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Yep


When I see a horse for sale that really strikes me, in my mind I "paint it" my least favorite color (plain/solid bay -- don't hold it against me -- but ad a blaze and some socks and I love the color LOL). If I still like the horse when it's plain bay, then I may inquire


I think the saying "a good horse is never a bad color" could be amended to add "but bad horses are often good colors."
 
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xxs

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I think the worst faults I have seen have been : legs so short that they are out of proportion to the size of the horse (and YES, I have seen these horses win at a show!) , horses unbalanced...the shoulders being much larger than the hind quarters...it looks like two different horses put together, posty legs, ewe necks, steep croups, tails set too low, long heads.

I agree, Jill, when I look at a horse, I picture them black..not because it is my least favorite color, but because it is neutral.
 

targetsmom

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I am not sure if the OP was referrring to faults overlooked in the show ring (by judges), or faults overlooked in general (or maybe just accepted). I have seen plenty of camped out horses winning in the show ring (as long as they have beautiful heads and necks!). I like to look at the horses when the move their feet, before the handler repositions them, and notice how crooked some of them are. I think judges are less likely to be swayed by color (JMO), or poor hips, or ewe necks, but that you will see a lot of weak hips and poor necks that don't ever get to the show ring. Just generalizations of course. I have also seen bad feet - almost club feet - in the show ring, often fairly well disguised.

For examples of some of these conformation faults, I highly recommend Kay Baxter's book Miniature Horse Conformation, available from Small Horse Press.
 

h2t99

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So can someone post pics? I think it would definately help. Even a pic of one with a great hip and maybe someone has a rescue or pet that they can show with a poor hip. I would definately like to learn what to look for. I have had horses for years but minis for only a few. I can post a pic of my stud who I think has a good hip. If someone can post for me I will send them a pic.
If I am wrong about my boy then I would like to know so I can geld him for my kids to show, there are a aweful lot of boys for sale out there!!


You can also tell me about my filly in my avatar, I think she has a nice hip, but like I said I am not sure.

Heidi
 
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Jill

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Here is a gelding of mine that I think has a weaker hip than I'd like, but the angle of the camera makes him appear slighter there than he actually is (but makes it even better for illustation):


Then a few other minis of mine that have strong hips:





Hope that helps to illustrate a difference in hips.
 

Leeana

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This doesn't exactly answer the question, but I think the more "interestingly" or "nicely" colored a horse is, the more likely it is that the poor quality underneath the color will be overlooked.
Jill is soooo right
.

I think allot of people overlook or sometimes let slide (like, say on a broodmare...) low tail sets.

I however need a pretty topline, long level croup and high tailset but i look at so many, espcially broodmares, and i think that is one thing allot let slide...probably because it as seen as "no big deal" to some...
 

Michelle@wescofarms

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Bad or no butt/hip seems to be the most common that I've seen. Most people look at the head and work back - maybe. I've seen some butt-less wonders in my day, and owned a few while learning. I'm still hypercritical about that and still working to get a better butt/hip on our herd.

It is true about people overlooking fault for wild color - very common especially it seems the louder the color the uglier the horse underneath it can be! Not saying all are, but a really well marked leopard appy stallion is often 'allowed' to have faults a muddy bay would be gelded and sold as a pet for and that shouldn't happen!

Half-half horse too - half body half leg - they just aren't in proportion.

Personally I can overlook a slightly longer back or longer (not larger) head than I can ugly necks and bad legs.
 

Miniv

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I SO agree with both Jill and Michelle.........

COLOR often can blind people to a lot of faults....... I try to mentally "roll the horse in the mud" while assessing.

People tend to be so focussed on the FRONT of the horse, that they forget that there is a BACK end.....
 

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