Over sized Miniature Horses in AMHR

[JMS Miniatures]

A proposal was submitted and was presented at Convention that if a AMHR miniature horse measures over 38" 3 times at one show the papers get pulled. It was passed.

Breeding papers were brought up but many for some reason did not want that. I think it could be one step towards becoming recognized as a breed then just a height registry. If you get over you would just be ineligible to show, you would still have breeding papers and breed for AMHR registered foals. It's not like it's not already happening, this would just make it legal. Of course this would be a disadvantage for geldings but there is the NSPPR that they can go show at and its not a breeding registry.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am not sure this would even be legally possible- I see law suits on the horizon, Mother, circle the wagons!!

It most certainly would not be legal here.......

 

[disneyhorse]

I do think this would be a step towards "being a breed". If an AMHR only horse gets its papers pulled, it becomes a completely unregistered animal, which is sad. This will make the "also registered ASPC" mini more desired because as a shetland, it won't ever become a grade horse due to borderline size.

 

[ohmt]

Yes to the second option, but only if sire and dam and maybe more than that are also AMHR.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Good catch- I had not thought of that...

 

[Minimor]

I would have voted for the second one as is, simply because that is what people are doing anyway--leaving their too tall horses at home and using them for breeding. Now with a thirds assure guaranteeing the horse is out if he still measures over, more will just not measure that third time and will keep papers anyway.

 

[Minimor]

Should have added in my earlier post--keep in mind this proposal will still have to be accepted (or not) by the BOD at the spring Board meeting. Will be interesting to see if it does, or if they throw it out.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think the BOD will pass it as they said that there have been issues with this because most thought that if you measure out then papers are taken automatically but it turns out there is no rule that state that papers can be taken away.

I would like to know why people are against the breeding papers. IMO it's a win win situation. You don't loose your papers like you would if this rule is put into place, you can still have registered off spring. And I'm sure farms will still keep them behind closed doors to still keep the regular papers but this may bring out more honest people. It's already going on so lets just make it legal.

I am going to come up with a proposal to send to the office for next year. If your mare or stallion goes over 38" by the last hair of the mane you will be ineligible to show but you will still have "Breeding Stock" papers. It will be as simple as adding a different letter to the end of our registration numbers. A "Under", B "Over", C "Breeding Stock". It will also be noted in the Stud Book. It should not cost the registry much money to have this division. IMO if your horse goes over as a owner it is your responsibility to turn in those papers and with you being honest I think the registry should give you a pardon and give you the breeding papers for free, if you get your papers pulled at a show under the same rule that was passed at this years Convention then you have to pay to get breeding papers on your horse. And the horses that have breeding papers can have registered offspring and they can show as long as they meet within the standard of perfection.

I also think that hardshipped horses should get excluded from this division as they should have have been accepted for hardship to begin with and if they measure over at shows then this rule at Convention will apply to them.

Also for geldings I know this would not affect them, if they go over, well they go over. They still have the NSPPR and I personally feel that if they were already registered in AMHR or ASPC then he should be able to get registered into NSPPR without having to go thru the DNA process.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Unfortunately NSPR still requires DNA for older animals. Maybe in the future this would change to allow any pony with AMHR or ASPC papers to be eligible without dna on older animals.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I understand that which makes no sense to me. When the AMHR and ASPC doesn't even require DNA and they are breeding registries when the NSPPR isn't but still requires DNA. I can understand when its a outcross X AMHR or outcross X ASPC but when the animal in question itself is already registered into the AMHR and ASPC why should that animal be required to do DNA?

Well now I was told that the BOD will mostly like not accept the rule that was passed by the members because of the legal issue.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Definitely makes no sense.

 

[Minimor]

I was going to ask--who is the "they" that said there have been issues?

I don't believe the BOD will pass this...I don't believe that they SHOULD pass this and here is why:

If a horse measures over at ONE show with one Steward do you really think it is a good idea to pull the papers on that ONE day's measuring?  What if it is a mare in heat who wants to hump her back every time the stick touches it?  What if the horse has a stone bruise or mildly pulled muscle no one has noticed and it is tense?  What if it is a really windy brisk day and the horse is really wound up?  What if there are lawnmower or very loud car races going on right next door spooking the horses being measured? (This has really happened!)  So many things can impact how a horse measures on any given day - how could anyone advocate pulling papers on three measurements done the same day under the same conditions?  I can't begin to imagine the board would pass this.  Weren't there serious legal issues involved with the last oversize measurements that were reviewed that really had nothing to do with the lack of procedure in the rule book?  Wouldn't pulling the papers on a Shetland or Falabella that was properly hardship measured by a Steward with a Judge present inspecting open the AMHR up to lawsuits? 

 

[JMS Miniatures]

But thats just it you are given 3 chances to measure in at one show, and if you choose to go to that 3rd measurement and still measure over then thats your fault. But you can stop at the 2nd measurement and go on to live for another day.

Perhaps we should have voted for breeding papers instead of just pulling the papers.

 

[RayVik]

Legal issues!!!!

Someone please explain not just speculate. Certainly we can be sued for any cause of action and that is a ongoing fact of our system. Someone explain what happens if I file a D N A protest on a Shetland and it shows the horse was not as listed. Or how we can suspend all privileges for a member including his family members. How do we prevent a animal that is 39" from being hardshipped. What happens to that animal who has a breeding only stamp when it is protested and is 40". What's prevents 5 years from now someone wanting a 39 " classes added. Where is the line????

As to the everyone is doing it already argument ... Think about it Drugs, speeding, cheating on taxes, jaywalking, not wearing seatbelts...

We the organization own those papers and when we become members we sign an agreement to abide by our rule and if our rule says we pull papers we have agreed to that it is the same as a legal contract

 

[RayVik]

Instead of tampering with our standard of perfection for the AMHR why not simply modify our rule such that a mini that measures out is automatically transferred to NSPR they will still have papers and we as a organization have done everything to accommodate the " issue" and further modify our hardship rules to allow a under 38 NSPR to be hardshipped to AMHR. Then you still have your "breed stock" if you want to call it that and the organization gets income for the hard shipping the owner has a means of continuing their program, we potentially increase the NSPR numbers and if you want to call it as such there is a incentive for those not wanting to have their horse as a NSPR then they don't get the third measurement. And most important we have protect all those who have for so long breed to keep within the standard of perfection as it has been for 40+ years.

And just to clarify if a animal has ASPC and AMHR papers it does not loss or in any way have effected its ASPC papers

Edited to correct to NSPR... My bad ... Coffee had not kicked in. Lol

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Ray, surely you meant NSPR, not ASPR. ASPR has to be either Pure Shetland or Shetland/Hackney.

There is no inclusion of miniatures, unless they carry Shetland ASPC papers. And these animals are closly aligned with the Modern division. Where action is strongly merited.

 

[TMR]

I agree 100% with RayVik's post #15, this modification would be wonderful. I, for one, have an oversized B gelding. His sire is double ASPC/AMHR and dam is AMHR. He has R papers but he is over 38". Unfortunately, without alot of added cost of DNA to put him into NSPPR, I have an unregistered pony. I show him quite a bit at ADS events, mainly CDE's and it is sad that I have to put him as grade. He is very good (I might be a bit biased) and represents the breed (or whatever you call it) well.

 

[sdmini]

When and if (and I don't think this will ever be allowed to happen in AMHR any time soon) the association is closed to hardshipping then yes anything with AMHR papers (and think the same thing for AMHA) should be allowed to keep their papers with one stipulation. You cannot breed oversized to oversize and the resulting foal is able to be registered within the association. AMHR (and AMHA) at its core is a height registry, if not the words "miniature" become laughable. You could breed oversized to undersized without losing papers but not oversized to oversized. If you have a miniature that you fear is too large to safely breed to a under than maybe a "miniature" association is not where it should be in the first place.

Until that time as we are so often reminded "you’re just a height breed" shouldn't they lose papers?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Instead of tampering with our standard of perfection for the AMHR why not simply modify our rule such that a mini that measures out is automatically transferred to NSPR they will still have papers and we as a organization have done everything to accommodate the " issue" and further modify our hardship rules to allow a under 38 NSPR to be hardshipped to AMHR. Then you still have your "breed stock" if you want to call it that and the organization gets income for the hard shipping the owner has a means of continuing their program, we potentially increase the NSPR numbers and if you want to call it as such there is a incentive for those not wanting to have their horse as a NSPR then they don't get the third measurement. And most important we have protect all those who have for so long breed to keep within the standard of perfection as it has been for 40+ years.

And just to clarify if a animal has ASPC and AMHR papers it does not loss or in any way have effected its ASPC papers

Edited to correct to NSPR... My bad ... Coffee had not kicked in. Lol

The problem with your suggestion is the NSPPR is not a breeding registry. It is a performance registry.

I agree 100% with RayVik's post #15, this modification would be wonderful. I, for one, have an oversized B gelding. His sire is double ASPC/AMHR and dam is AMHR. He has R papers but he is over 38". Unfortunately, without alot of added cost of DNA to put him into NSPPR, I have an unregistered pony. I show him quite a bit at ADS events, mainly CDE's and it is sad that I have to put him as grade. He is very good (I might be a bit biased) and represents the breed (or whatever you call it) well.

I personally would like to see this rule changed to where if you have a already AMHR or ASPC registered horse then the DNA fees would be waived for them to be registered into the NSPPR. I think it can get a better response.

When and if (and I don't think this will ever be allowed to happen in AMHR any time soon) the association is closed to hardshipping then yes anything with AMHR papers (and think the same thing for AMHA) should be allowed to keep their papers with one stipulation. You cannot breed oversized to oversize and the resulting foal is able to be registered within the association. AMHR (and AMHA) at its core is a height registry, if not the words "miniature" become laughable. You could breed oversized to undersized without losing papers but not oversized to oversized. If you have a miniature that you fear is too large to safely breed to a under than maybe a "miniature" association is not where it should be in the first place.

Until that time as we are so often reminded "you’re just a height breed" shouldn't they lose papers?

I agree and I also hate the stigma your just a height registry, we aren't even a "breed" IMO. Not yet, not until we do something different.

 

[Just_Rena]

BUMP