Ok so I was deleted on facebook ?driving class judges

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sfmini

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Jody Hoch 5:40pm Oct 29

I've been thinking (I know, that can be trouble!)

One of my concerns in the driving classes is nobody showing according to the class definition, judges place the class, people observe what is winning in that class and they adjust accordingly, after all, that is what it must take to win, right?

How do we fix this? I have two possible ideas, one would be to all judges to elect to place the class starting with third place.

Or, make all the placings but give verbal explainations stating that none of the horses met the standard for the class and why.

Or, a combination, don't place first and second and give verbal reasons.

My reasoning for eliminating first and second would then eliminate them from any championship class as well as reduce the points given for the "win".

What do you guys think?

The judges are going to have to grow a "set" and be brave enough to do this.
 

disneyhorse

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I have no idea the context of this. Are you simply wanting to automatically disqualify the first and second place horses to axe the two most extreme moving horses?
 

AngC

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hmm, puzzling...

The topic title is: Ok so I was deleted on facebook

I don't know about judges growing a set, but what's wrong with being deleted from Faceboook?
 

sfmini

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I posted this in the amateur tip page asking what people thought and got deleted. So moved it here with the same idea.

No I don't want to penalize extreme movers but sometimes the horses that are working according to the standard have screw ups that knock them out and then an inappropriate horse or horses win because they were mistake free. Some people observe that and decide that's what is winning so I have to work my horse that way to win this class. My example is extreme, others could be more subtle.
 

Debby - LB

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good question Jody. I'll look forward to some input from those showing, it sounds to me that this definitely needs to be fixed.
 

lkblazin

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Yes that does make a fair bit of sense. I do feel as though they definitely should state why such a horse would place in first or third. Then learning from the faults of that horse build on it.

Are you saying that there are horses that won entirely because of there movement, and were lacking the standard? Were as another horse should have placed....?
 

Minimor

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But what if the judges do not feel their winning horse is off standard?

I ask this because how really people do not all agree in what the standard looks like. In AMHR for instance--one year at nationals people complained that pleasure horses were winning in country. Personally I Did not see that. The classes I watched I saw horses in pleasure that I would have put into country. The horse that won park that year is the one I would have chosen for pleasure. I did not see him as a park horse at all! Overall I saw a lot of country horses in pleasure--I did not see any real pleasure horses in country. But--judging by the complaints not everyone agreed with me.
 

sfmini

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I'm Saying that sometimes a horse with it's head too high or trotting too big sometimes wins a country class over a true country horse because the country horse(s) might have really screwed up too big to earn the win while the open horse did everything perfect except of course it is an open horse, or on the flip side you see horses win open because there are no true open horses.

There are many possible scenarios.
 

lkblazin

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Yes I do get what you are saying, but as with any person ( judge) they have there own preference. Some people like the stock horse type and some like the Arab look. So I do feel that what one sees as correct is obviously not another's.

Thus it would be valuable to the person showing, to be given reasons as to why there horse placed as such for a particular class.
 

ckmini

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So just to play devil's advocate here, what is a "true country" horse and a "true pleasure" horse?


So the rulebook says:

1.9 Pleasure Driving
A. Class Conditions
1. Ring Procedure: Pleasure driving horses are to enter the ring counter-clockwise (to the right) at a pleasure trot. To be shown both ways of the arena at a walk, pleasure trot, and extended trot. To stand quietly and to rein back. To be judged 60% on performance, manners and way of going; 30% on the condition, fit and appropriateness of harness and vehicle; and 10% on neatness, appropriateness of attire, and overall impression. Excessive speed will be penalized.
a. Walk: A free, regular and forward moving four beat gait. The horse should walk energetically, but calmly, with even and determined pace.
b. Pleasure Trot: The horse should maintain forward impulsion while showing submission to the bit. The trot is slower and more collected, but the horse should indicate willingness to be driven on the bit while maintaining a steady cadence.
c. Extended Trot: This is a clear, but not excessive, increase in gait and length of stride. The horse goes forward freely, engaging the hind legs with good hock action, on a taut but light rein, the position balanced and unconstrained.

1.10 Country Pleasure Driving
A. Class Conditions
1. Ring Procedure: Country Pleasure Driving horses are to enter the ring counterclockwise (to the right) at a country pleasure trot. To be shown both ways of the arena at a walk, country pleasure trot and an extended trot. To stand quietly and to rein back. To be judged 60% on performance, manners and way of going, 30% on the condition, fit and appropriateness of harness and vehicle, and 10% on neatness, appropriateness of attire and overall impression. Over checks and side checks should be slightly loose, not snug. The head set should appear natural for the horse. Excessive knee action and speed to be penalized.
a. Walk: A free, regular and forward moving four beat gait. The horse should walk energetically, but calmly, with an even and determined gait.
b. Country Pleasure Trot: A balanced, easy moving, relaxed two beat gait demonstrating forward movement.
c. Extended Trot: A clear increase in gait and length of stride. The horse should move freely on a taut, but light rein, while maintaining a balanced gait and forward movement. Excessive knee action and speed shall be penalized.


So by the rule book the only thing that differentiates the country pleasure from pleasure is the ambiguous phrase "excessive knee action". Now I think this is actually intentional so as not to inhibit progress in breeding a miniature that is more suitable to driving. Everyone is going to have a different definition of "excessive". Heck look at the controversy over Totilas' movement (Dressage), some love it, some think it's "excessive". Personally, if I'm interpreting your post correctly, I think the opposite is more of an issue: placing the biggest mover (regardless if it's true to type or "excessive") in first despite poor, clumsy drives. I also agree with Minimor, there are far more horses that show in pleasure that shouldn't be there. True pleasure driving miniatures are few and far between, and we should not lower our standards just so more people can show and win a ribbon in that class.

At the end of the day you have to drive and show what you like and what you enjoy, some judges will like you, some won't.
 
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Jill

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I guess I don't get why Facebook defriending is a main page "mini horse" topic? Which i say as a sometimes Facebook defriended person who doesn't know what's gone on in the FB discussion or group about driving. Probably just like a lot of people reading this thread
 
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JMS Miniatures

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I think the driving classes are getting better but country will always have issues. The pleasure class is getting smaller it seems like and yes seems like more country horses are going into pleasure and even a western or two. The picks in the Western class is also getting better too IMO. Hopefully the judges continue to improve the picks and be true to the standard.
 

Minimor

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And of course there is the judge that will say one horse is open while another judge says the horse is country...,have seen it happen--judge told an exhibitor her horse was in the wrong class, next show she changed and that judge told her she was in the wrong class--very frustrating. Exhibitors get frustrated and angry and end up staying home. In the end, the shows suffer.

Then of course there is the time factor--reasons given for one class mean someone will want reasons for other or all classes, and many shows just do not have time for that, especially with multi judge shows. Personally I would hate to see this made a requirement
 

Minimor

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Ck mini--that is it exactly. Excessive knee action--is different things to different people. Some figure any lift at all in the knee is excessive. I like to see knee action (and with it hock flexion!) in any good moving horses--and I want to see good moving horses in country! I just want to see more action in pleasure!
 

HGFarm

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Your suggestion is the way Pasos are judged and always have been. Sometimes NOBODY in the class places and the entire class leaves ribbonless if the judges don't think they performed as they should or were up to par. It is not required that judges award places, but it seems they do, regardless of what is in front of them. I would certainly like to see the guidelines adhered to with horses performing in the classes they should. If a horse is too upheaded, with too much action for a classic/western driving, then they should not place in that class and perhaps the judges should suggest to the exhibitor that the horse would be better suited in a different division and suggest where they think the horse would perform best.
 

lkblazin

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I feel like the rulebook has been doing its job. And like any set of rules there will always be flaws ( and loop holes). Every word can be picked at, but in the end will the changes make it better? There are pay offs both ways, along with not so great outcomes.

And partially related examples....

Example- I wax my legs. Hurts realllly bad!

Example 2 - I shave. No pain but I may cut myself.

(Lol I just had to put those in)
 

sfmini

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Jill the facebook comment was just a comment, nothing more. I was trying to start a conversation that was censored on the FB group so reposted here,
 

wingnut

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I'm not a big "show" person so my comment may not be considered terribly valid, but sometimes stuff happens. Sometimes it just not your day to win...too many things going wrong and what not. If a person enters a class and because others in the class knock themselves out of contention due to whatever, it is not appropriate to simply say "never mind" to placing that person in the top spot because they weren't perfect or near perfect.

Showing is not always perfect but we can't make changes to how a class runs because someone who you consider less deserving of the win, comes away with the blue. And if others make the poor choice of simply mimicking what they see win without any thought as to why that person won (i.e., was it up to the standards or just the best of what was available)? That's on them. I will not conform my own behavior in the ring to something other than what's right, even if that means losing placement.
 

targetsmom

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I will post the same thing here that I posted on FB:

My weird suggestion is to run the driving classes in this order: Western/classic, then Country, then Single. Judges decide if any of the horses are not conforming to the standard and they are excused to show in the NEXT class. They are not penalized, but neither are they rewarded for being in the "wrong" class. I don't think it would take too long for drivers to figure out where they really belong, although I am sure there would be a learning curve.
 

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