OK Color Experts....I'm stumped!!

[Mona]

I have been going back and forth on this one, and cannot make up my mind. Today I am thinking smutty/sooty buckskin, but in the past, have also thought dun!

When I bought this boy, he was what I thought was buckskin. After getting him home, I often thought dun. He has a strong dorsal stripe, and I have seen sign of shoulder barring also in his winter coat, but he has no leg barring at all that I can see. It is mostly this strange shade of brown and the hint of shoulder barring that makes me think dun, but then after I clipped him, there was one small piece of the dorsal stripe that seemed to disappear...maybe a couple inches long.

Now that he is growing his coat again, he is looking more and more like a sooty/smutty buckskin?? Also, is the brown mane due to silver or sunbleached?

I have put together a very PHOTO HEAVY webpage to show his color transformation and his parents etc. I kept the current pics taken just today, very large, to better show the color. I'd love to hear from you that have more experience with this. I also want to say, I KNOW one parent must be a dun in order to throw it, but I have never seen them in person...the only pics I have are what I have posted on the webpage.

Please go to THIS PAGE for many, many pics!

Here are a few pics...

As a weanling:

Over the winter:

This Spring:

Early May right after his clip:

And today, a month after he was clipped out:

The photo intensive webpage will load well for those on high speed, but other may have to refresh the page if the red x's show on the pics near the bottom. Please excuse his mane! We are trying to grow it out as it was almost completely undersut when I got him home last year, so he's sporting a rather WILD look now.

 

[wiccanz]

My vote is for sooty/sumtty buckskin, with sunbleached mane.

 

[outlaw]

Smutty Buckskin all the way. It makes me sad to see him. My best mare was that color and your guy reminds me of her.

outlaw

 

[Bess Kelly]

Very nice boy -- I think smutty buckskin, too.

 

[Lewella]

Textbook Seal Brown + Cream (called Brown Buckskin or Smoky Brown).

It isn't unusual for smoky blacks, buckskins or smoky browns to have a not exactly black mane and tail. Cream doesn't have much effect on black pigment but it often has just enough to make the mane and tail a brownish shade instead of black.

 

[Mona]

Well no wonder I didn't know what color he was...I have never heard of it before! Thanks Lewella, but now that makes me have more questions for you.

:

So does this mean he would not carry agouti?? Is smokey seal brown like smokey black in that there is no agouti?? Also, where can I read/see more on this color? I find it interesting! Thanks!

 

[Lewella]

Hi Mona,

The tip off visually that he is brown based are his light soft parts (muzzle, around eyes, elbows, groin, etc.) Smoky browns will look like buckskins as foals (just like seal browns look like bays as foals). The seal brown gene is coded as At or at (depends on what site you are at - there isn't a standard coding for it yet) - it is an Agouti varient. "A" (bay) is dominant to "At" (seal brown) and both are dominant to "a" at the Agouti locus. A seal brown will test to have the Agouti gene - BUT - the test only tests for "a" and all other results are reported as "A" even if they are really "At".

This is a site that explains seal brown genetics very clearly - http://colormorgans.tripod.com/basecolors.htm

There are several pictures of smoky brown/brown buckskins on this page at the same site - http://colormorgans.tripod.com/buckskin.htm and you can see the differences between regular buckskins, sooty buckskins and seal brown + cream individuals on this page also. :bgrin

 

[Mona]

Thanks again Lewella...I'm off to check out those sites you listed, BUT, I do have one more question...can/will he produce buckskins? (regular ones)

 

[Mona]

OK, I went to the pages you posted...now I am even more confused by the pics. I guess I was expecting some to look my boy's color, but all of the brown buckskins shown there were VERY dark...looking almost black bay or very dark brown, and my guy is much lighter. Will he continue to get darker(blacker) and darker with age?? How can you tell the difference between a sooty/smutty buckskin and a brown buckskin?

 

[Lewella]

Yes, he can produce buckskin but the mare will have to contribute the "A" bay gene for that to happen.

Minis take shade to the extremes - both light and dark.

: (Just like they do pinto pattern expression). Morgans tend to take colors the darker extremes and rarely the lighter. In this case your little guy is one of the ligher shades of the seal brown base color - it would be unusual to see an individual this light in a big horse breed (though he's well within the normal shade range for a mini). There is some overlap between shades but the dark bay and sooty bay bases will normally not have the light soft parts and the sooty bay bases will normally be much darker on the top half of their body than the bottom half.

Pedigree can go a long way to determining if a horse is bay or brown based. There are many more seal brown based minis than most people realize. Brown silvers are common but most are mislabled as being silver dapples. Brown buckskin/smoky browns are also quite common. We even see silver smoky browns such are Marystown Mercedes (used to be owned by Tibbs Family Miniatures).

Hope this helps clear it up a little. :bgrin

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm not sure where the idea that Buckskins have a black mane and tail came from in the first place- I have yet to see one!!(Except in Minis and you are never sure if the colour is "real" then, anyway as it could be dyed.

Mind most of my experience with this colour is in Welsh and they, like Minis are a law unto themselves.

Lewella I did not know all that had been worked out- but surely until a test is evolved it is just logical theory??

Also could the stallion not have At and A??- or would this cause a different expression?

 

[Jill]

Looks sooty to me, too. I see a dorsal, but not sure I see other dun factor (but the stripe is my favorite marking, whether due to dun or not).

I think that sooty buckskin can be a variety of shades -- just like bay comes in shades from bright bay to seal bay. It's still right to say "bay".

With sooty, in my way of thinking, what makes it so is that it's as if there's an outter and undercoat shading (though I know they are not really double coated). Khaki is a sooty / smutty buckskin. In her winter coat, looks like the roots are brown. You'd think she'd clip out to look brown but she clips (or sheds) out to look buckskin but with shadows kind of over her rump, shoulders, neck...

Pictures of Khaki in various seasons of the year, ages, and clips are here: Triple H Buckin Khaki

 

[Suzie]

I would like to see more pics of seal browns if anyone has them. I sent in pics of my colt as a smoky black (sire is color DNA'd as smoky black) dam is a red pinto with black spots on mouth and I got back my papers as having him registered as a seal brown. He does vary between gray blackish and now a brownish red also (dark mane/tail and blaze). I was totally not expecting that color to be on his paperwork. TIA

 

[Lauralee]

He is smutty buckskin, undoubtedly.

I've owned several and they have an ever changing palette of rich color just like his.

 

[Bluerocket]

Suzie:

I believe this mare of mine is a SealBrown (I call her dark bay/brown). I believe she also carries sabino (see facial markings). Lewella - what do you think?

She in her natural coat (not clipped) and a bit sunburned. Timing is July. In new coat (just shed out with new hair coat not clipped) she is very very dark almost black.

Mona - whatever color your fella turns out to be (have you had him tested??) he is drop dead gorgeous!!! Wowser -- can't wait to see him fully grown.

JJay

 

[PaintedMeadows]

Here is my guy that Lewella thinks maybe be a silver seal bown. I have to have him tested. Should get on that today i guess. tee hee. Here is Levi.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Lewella, As always your color information is so very interesting and helpful. In the case of Marystown Mercedes, could he produce buckskin? Also, is there any way to tell, other than testing, if a mini is seal brown or brown buckskin? From the pictures from the sites, it appears that seal browns and brown buckskins look alike. Thanks for all the wonderful info, Mary

Yes, he can produce buckskin but the mare will have to contribute the "A" bay gene for that to happen.

Minis take shade to the extremes - both light and dark.

: (Just like they do pinto pattern expression). Morgans tend to take colors the darker extremes and rarely the lighter. In this case your little guy is one of the ligher shades of the seal brown base color - it would be unusual to see an individual this light in a big horse breed (though he's well within the normal shade range for a mini). There is some overlap between shades but the dark bay and sooty bay bases will normally not have the light soft parts and the sooty bay bases will normally be much darker on the top half of their body than the bottom half.

Pedigree can go a long way to determining if a horse is bay or brown based. There are many more seal brown based minis than most people realize. Brown silvers are common but most are mislabled as being silver dapples. Brown buckskin/smoky browns are also quite common. We even see silver smoky browns such are Marystown Mercedes (used to be owned by Tibbs Family Miniatures).

Hope this helps clear it up a little. :bgrin

 

[Buckskin gal]

Susie, this may be a seal brown but from sites Lewella posted, I would say she could possibley be a brown buckskin. Haven't had her color tested. Her sire is a buckskin and her dam is a buckskin dun {dunskin} I am hoping she carries the cream gene!

I would like to see more pics of seal browns if anyone has them. I sent in pics of my colt as a smoky black (sire is color DNA'd as smoky black) dam is a red pinto with black spots on mouth and I got back my papers as having him registered as a seal brown. He does vary between gray blackish and now a brownish red also (dark mane/tail and blaze). I was totally not expecting that color to be on his paperwork. TIA

Please don't alter my pictures withour permission for I really like them as they are. Thank you, Mary

 

[Lewella]

Lewella I did not know all that had been worked out- but surely until a test is evolved it is just logical theory??

Also could the stallion not have At and A??- or would this cause a different expression?

The French research that developed the Agouti test was done to prove that seal brown wasn't black + pangare as Sponenberg theorized but to prove that seal brown is actually an Agouti varient. The horses used were all very obviously seal brown - no horses that appeared to be dark bay were used. In that study all seal browns tested were found to be have only one copy of the "a" gene. Since then many seal browns have been found to have none - those individuals are homozygous for "At". A horse that is AAt will be a bay based - A is dominant to At. Seal brown was originally thought to be an Agouti varient until Sponenberg made the black + pangare theory popular. Research is ongoing to isolate A from At (geneticists do believe they are different or would not be working on a test to isolate one from the other).

In the case of Marystown Mercedes, could he produce buckskin? Also, is there any way to tell, other than testing, if a mini is seal brown or brown buckskin?

If bred to mares that have an "A" bay gene he can produce buckskins. In some cases no, you cannot tell if a seal brown also has cream. If the horse would have been a very dark seal brown before the cream gene was added it may appear to be just a lighter shade of seal brown and show little evidence of cream. Sometimes the ligher soft parts will be a much more gold shade than normal but not always.

There is a quite a bit of phenotype overlap between seal brown, extremely dark bay, smoky brown, smoky black, and fading black. Some individuals like Mona's boy make their seal base color very obvious (big ole muley colored nose, nice eye rings, etc.) but others are more subtle and more difficult.

Here is my guy that Lewella thinks maybe be a silver seal bown.

Levi is such a cutie! Again, like Mona's boy, he shows a very obvious lighter mealy muzzle, nice eye rings, and much ligher soft parts.

The vast majority of horses labeled as "smutty" buckskin in the miniature breed probably are not. Very rarely are colors other than buckskin ever labeled as smutty - the reason being that these buckskins are rarely actually smutty but are really seal brown based instead of bay based. The Morgan site I posted earlier show some FANTASTIC examples of sooty/smutty on all base colors - the palomino examples are especially helpfun at showing just what sooty/smutty does to the hair coat.

Khaki is a sooty / smutty buckskin.

I'd have to disagree. She has smut marks, but not an all over sooty appearance. Smut marks can be diet related, sometimes genetic, and often change in intensity and location from year to year as hers appear to do.

Horses are not double coated as some dog breeds are but they do have two distinct hair types in their coats. This is most obvious on colors like true roans. Have you ever wondered why true roans are so dark in the winter and light in the summer? It is because the longer guard hairs are the colored hairs and the shorter underwool hairs are the ligher hairs. In the winter the guard hairs grow long and hide the light underwool hairs. In the summer the guard hairs are short and allow the light underwool hairs to easily show through. This is also why most cream dilutes are dark in the summer and ligher in the winter - but in this case the underwool is darker colored and the guard hairs are lighter. This is also why some palominos appear to be almost roaned in the summer.

This year, because of cool spring temps, many buckskins, palominos, and silver dilutes are extremely dark shades. Temperature durning early shedding effects the shade the summer hair comes in.

Just a head's up - I'm heading out tomorrow for Kansas to read pedigrees at the Mid-America Sale - will be gone until Sunday night so probably won't be able to check back on this thread until Monday!

 

[Jill]

Hi, Lewella --

I still think that's what Khaki is, however, sooty or smutty buckskin is one of my least favorite "shades" of buckskin so I don't honestly care if she's not. However, she has always had the darker cast that as I said, looks like the effect of a double coat. As I pointed out, I know horses are not double coated -- but it's as if there are two depths with the darker being below the lighter visually. Her color has remained consistent since I've owned her (bought her as a suckling) in that fall looks the same, winter looks the same, spring looks the same and summer looks the same.

Jill