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LisaF.

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First, let me say I have never been to a miniature horse auction in my life. I have also never bid over the internet or by phone bidding. So, I may be 100% in the wrong here. I don't feel I am or I would not be so hurt. I wanted to post yesturday, but that would NOT have been a good time for me. I was angry and hurt!

I also want to point out ..out of 20 miniature horses I have only bought one miniature on payments. So, I am not too familiar with this either. This farm Little Pegasus did not charge me any interest, they let me pick him up after they received my down payment. I paid them monthly and carried insurance on him and they held the papers until he was completely paid off. Then his AMHA/AMHR papers were sent to me.

I have e-mailed Robin at LKF today so I am hoping she will help me understand what happened. I also, had to wait until today because I was too upset yesturday to e-mail anyone about this.

Although, this is the Last Heritage Sale at LKF. I know other auctions will continue to go on and I am hoping someone will learn from me to help them in the future. Or, someone can teach me for the future. So, I appreciate any comments to help any of us on online or phone bidding.

Sorry, this is so long just please bear with me because to be fair I think I have to tell ALL sides.

I spotted a pinto mare about two weeks ago on The Heritage Online Sale Catalog. ( This is aproximate date, but I was checking everyday and as soon as her picture came up I e-mailed the same day).

Sometimes ( at least for me) a miniature will catch you eye and you just think you have to have that ONE! That is how I felt about Lot #60. Some of you may remember I posted asking who the consigner was COH. I am sorry I can't remember who, but someone on the forum told me it was Cherry Orchard Hill. I searchedd and searched for their website because I wanted to talk to them and I did not want to bother anyone at LKF because I knew they were extremely busy getting ready for the big event. Well, by the end of the day I e-mailed LKF and Robin told me they MS. Hoffman ( from Cherry Orchard Farm) did not have a website that most or all ( I can't remember) of her horses was at LKF. Robin also informed me she knew alot about the horses. So, I asked her SEVERAL QUESTIONS and she did answer each one about the mare.

With what is going on in our family ( we have gave our kids money to make the trips to St. Louis) and we have had a horrible winter, medical bills etc. So, I did not want to spend all my cash on a miniature. I don't know when my kids will be going back to see Skler ( read Back Porch..if you want more info). Anyway we have had some tough times lately...but, I have decided to sell most of my herd and make some changes. This mare would have helped me MAKE some of the CHANGES I want too. Now I 100% realize that this is no ones responsiblity but ours. Noone has to offer payments on any horse. If they can't I don't blame them. If they can...I am looking for a couple right now while I am getting mine ready to sell. ( A LITTLE OFF SUBJECT..BUT YOU WILL UNDERSTND LATER).

Ok, after Robin answered all my questions about the mare. I HATE to borrow money or buy horses on payment plans...but, I think at this time I will have to in order to make some changes.

So, I called my dad ( MY MISTAKE) and asked him to borrow some money. He said ok...if they will take my credit card. So, I e-mailed Robin and she said that would be fine if my dad would talk to their office and confirm the information. So, I called dad and he said he would. So, this is what I told Robin. Well, the next day dad changed his mind. I don't know why...and didn't bother to ask ( I should have known better).

This is when everything started getting confusing -

I told Robin what had happened and asked if Ms. Hoffman would take payments. Robin said she would check with Ms. Hoffman at Cherry Orchard Farm. She e-mailed me back and told me the ONLY way Ms. Hoffman would take payments was if I would PAY $15,000.00. and carried insurance on the mare. I told her there was no way I could afford that type of money.

I received an e-mail from Robin asking me what I could do. I told her I could put XX amount of dollars down and XX amount of payments per month. I would also agree to carry insurance on the mare and foal.

Well, over the next week I e-mailed LKF for an answer ( In my mind Ms. Hoffman would maybe come down since Robin had e-mailed me). I knew I had to get a payment plan set up BEFORE the auction if Ms. Hoffman had agreed to a lower price. In several e-mails, I requested an answer. I did not know if I could bid on the mare only and MS. Hoffman keep the colt. ( I offered this). I didn't know if I would need to pay board at LKF or if Ms. Hoffman wanted them moved right away and them hold the papers. I didn't know if I needed to get transportation set up. I e-mailed several times trying to find something out. There was just so many details to work out if Ms. Hoffman from Cherry Orchard Farm would agree to anything I had offered.

Now, looking back...I wish I would have called Robin before the auction. I just hate to bother people on the phone when I know they are so busy. I knew they had to be very busy getting ready for this big event.

Well, on Friday I recieved an e-mail from Mary Ann telling me if I wanted to sign up for phone bidding to go ahead. I was THRILLED I thougth this was a sign something had been set up.

So, again I started e-mailing Mary Ann and Robin several times to see what the plan was. I never got an e-mail so I thougth they were too busy. So, again...here is where I wish I would have called.

I called the office ( or whoever works the phones for Little King Farm during The Heritage Sale). I gave them all the information they requested. So, I was ready to bid by telephone.

Now, to the day of the Auction - I have a fairly new computer and my speakers work very well with everything else. The AUDIO was HORRIBLE. I adjusted low..medium..high..nothing would help the Audio. I also have DSL. ( Not a computer expert, so I am not sure if this matters).

The presentation I felt was WONDERFUL ( except I couldn't hear a word...the audio just kept breaking up) but, watching the horses just brought chills. This was the first year we planned on going ( but, then the emergency family matter happened and we did not want to be that far away from home. Oh, I also told Robin this is why we could not come). Just watching Buckeroo and all his sons and grandsons was very emotional so I can't even imagine how great it would be to have been there. ( Knowing me I would have cried and embarrassed my husband..lol).

Ok...I watched the Auction...and some horses were going so low that I could bid on them without a payment plan ( I was really surprised at the low prices on some of the horses that were of such great quality). I even picked up the phone a few times to call in...but, I held out because I knew if I bought them I wouldn't have the cash( debit card) for my down payment. Now, I am really kicking myself. Some people got beautiful miniatures at a great price. ( Although I am happy for those people also).

Well, during the auction I seen where you could click on a link and chat. You could ask a question and then it would come up in green - The Heritage Sale- and they would answer the question ( because the audio was so bad). A couple of examples - They couldnt' hear the horses height or didn't know if the foal on the side was a colt or filly. Those two questions were the most popular questions asked that I seen.

The link would not work for me so I called The Heritage Sale and told them about the audio, the link not working, and I needed my buyer's number also. For some reason when I called in they forgot and I forgot to get a buyers number. The lady that answered the phone and asked me my name. She said Robin had all my information. She never did help me get into the chat.

So, I called in again and told them I needed to know if my payment plan was an option on lot 60. Again they asked my name and they told me Robin had all of my information. I was getting REALLY EXCITED...I thougth Ms. Hoffman had agreed to some type of payment plan.

As stated above when I registered to bid by phone they told me someone would call me 2 to 3 horses BEFORE Lot 60 came on stage. I was almost in panic mode Lot 60 came on stage..I called in..I am glad I have call waiting because Robin beeped in on her cell phone.

Here is where I am REALLY UPSET- The cell phone had a horrible connection ( not Robins fault) I told her I could not hear her good ...but, if Ms. Hoffman had agreed to the payment plan I had offered I would bid - keep in mind I still didn't know if I would be paying board for this mini or if the mini would need to be transported-

*** Anway, like I said above I told Robin I could not hear her very good her cell was breaking up, but if the payment plan offered was ok.. I would bid....Robin said did you get my e-mail I said NO..She said Ms. Hoffman would except my payment plan under ONE CONDITION *******Robin told me Ms. Hoffman would ONLY EXCEPT MY PAYMENT PLAN IF I BID $10,000.00 or more. ***I said Robin I can't afford 10,000.00..but, I will continue to bid until I have to stop and even if Ms. Hoffman wanted to keep the colt..she said Ms. Hoffman wanted them to go together *****Robin said Lisa.......the bid is at $5,600.00 I said *****Robin put a $5,700.00 bid in for me and I will keep bidding until I have to stop*******Robin said Lisa Ms. Hoffman WILL NOT EXCEPT A PAYMENT PLAN UNLESS YOU BID $10,000.00 or more and before another word came out of my mouth Robin said she sold at $5,700.00.

Writting this phone conversation makes it sound like it went on a long time.......IT DID NOT...my mind was swirling it was so fast.

Now this is where I am upset - Ms. Hoffman from Cherry Orchard Farm did NOT owe me anything. She did NOT have to offer me a payment plan. I will be 100% honest. If Ms. Hoffman would have said I am sorry I am putting this miniature horse and her colt in the auction and I can NOT except a payment plan. From the bottom of my heart I would have understood 100%. I would not have been hurt or angry. It is the fact, that since I had to make a payment plan it feels like I would have been paying almost 50% interest. I just don't think that is fair. Or if Robin would have said your bid plus xx amount of dollars board...or your bid plus 10% interest. But, NOT MY MINIMUM BID $10,000.00

In my mind I was hoping to get this mare and her foal for around $6000.00 or less...but, I would have went up to $7000.00. ( My husband may have shot me..LOL). But, I knew in my mind what I was prepared to do before the call came in as far as how much I would be willing to spend. If the payment plan was excepted which Robin said on the phone it was...so I know how much money I had to put down that day and how much money I had to pay per month and that I had to carry insurance.( I was scared because if I would have bid 7000.00 and ended up paying board fee( my husband would have shot me..LOL). I bet some of my minis would have been going out the door fast to get the mare home fast..lol.

Could someone that has experience with Auctions please help me understand. I feel like if I was allowed a payment plan I should have been able to bid like everyone else. *** Not my lowest bid at $10,000.00. That just doesn't sound fair to me. As I stated in the beginning this may be normal. I just don't know. If it is normal please let me know. Maybe I won't feel so hurt..if only I could understand.

I am trying to start a Migraine...I have took some meds for it...so...I hope I made sence. If not, feel free to ask questions. I am just trying to understand if this is normal and how to handle auctions the next time. ( I guess cash on hand would be the best way). This miniature mare just really caught my eye and I wanted her so bad and the auction was the only way to get her.

If anyone knows who bought Lot# 60 please let me know. I am sure they are planning on keeping her...but, just in case ...or if she comes up for sale in the future I would like the new owners to know I would be interested in buying her.
 

ClickMini

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Stepping out of this one.

Sounds like there was a lot of misunderstanding. Too bad it all had to come out on the forum.
 
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Robin

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As posted on the other post....

Lisa-

First of all- I cannot control how you perceive things there in your own house hundreds of miles away from here. It is a luxury that everyone who did not or could not take the time to come here personally and experience Buckeroo's last stage presentation had the opportunity for you all to watch hundreds, thousands miles away across the oceans and the WORLD! By the way- My mother paid for you to see!

Second- I have spent several hours answering your every question about this mare and foal. I told you I would see what I could do for you in regards to your budget and payment plan, but that I did not think Ms. Hoffmann would do payments at all. I then came back and said- if the mare sold for more than $15,000, I thought she would consider payments, however the $15,000 would have to be paid up front and the balance in monthly payments. You told me you only had $1500 to put down- therefore I knew your ability to pay for $15,000 up front was not an option and a payment plan was not an option for you either.

Third- I called you- as I did (the other 5 phone bidders I had that had many horses on their lists) as soon as I could. I try to handle the phone bids myself, since I am standing next to the auctioneer, I can see the horse and I can answer your questions if you have any at the exact time to bid.

Fourth- You were not prepared to spend any amount of money on this mare that was even remotely close to what she was worth. However- I did give you the courtesy of calling you and allowing you to bid if you so wanted.

Fifth- you were trying to work out payment arrangements as she was being auctioned off and I told you there was no option unless she sold for over $15,000. The mare sold for $5,700. Therefore- no payment plan was available - period........

Sixth- The comment about being mad at Ms. Hoffmann is ridiculous. Number 1- she let the mare go for 1/2 of what she paid for her. I told you exactly what I thought she would bring and she brought less. I gave you an amount to expect and you were not prepared to spend that amount. #2- this is an auction- you had to pay at the office before the horse can leave the farm- this was not a private treaty sale. #3- There were hundreds of people here, several people bid on this mare. One person bought her and is extremely happy with her. She came to me in tears this morning with her children so grateful that they were able to be here and see Buckeroo and buy some horses.

Seventh- I had some respect for you. Now I do not. This grief, lack of respect to put this on Lil Beg.as gossip and bad mouthing, your lack of knowledge as to what it takes to put on this type of event and your ignorance to what an auction even is and the written terms and conditions of the sale- is the reason why we are no longer doing these sales. It isn't worth it to listen to people like you complain!

If you are not willing to consider buying a horse from Ms. Hoffmann don't bother trying to ever buy one from me. I am so glad Buckeroo is old and tired because so are we from dealing with people like you.

Robin Mingione-LKF

To add to this....

Lisa- you have no clue what an auction is- terms and payment plans are not acceptable. $1500 down and $250 per month is not how an auction works.

To clarify for you. IF the horse brought more than $10,000.... the option was that you could do a payment plan on the difference of $10,000 and the selling price. SO- If this beautiful buckskin pinto 3-1 package would have brought $13,500. You would have had to pay $10,000 down and then finance $3500 within 3 months and pay board and have insurance until she is paid in full. Ms. Hoffmann would not do any payment plan if she brought less than $10,000. You told me you only had $1500 to put down, your dad would not let you use his CC. You never said on the phone that you had the cash or ability to bid up to $7,000 and cover it in full. All you had to say was- I can bid up to $7,000..... I have the cash or ability to pay today up to $7,000..... You never said that on the phone. And By the Way---- I could hear you just fine on that phone.
 

wildoak

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Sorry that you had a bad experience. Auctions move quickly, and it's hard enough to keep up with what's going on when you are there let alone being on the phone with a bad connection and trying to make special arrangements. I do think she was absolutely justified in not taking payments on a lesser price - when you pay the money up front to put your horse in an auction, you expect an immediate return, such is the nature of auctions. A cash sale is by far easier to deal with on the seller's end. Sounds like a lack of communication all the way around, but there apparently was never a clear understanding of what your arrangements were to be. Rule number one, never ASSUME anything.


As you said, there will be more sales....and lots more horses to buy. Try to keep it as simple as possible, and remember that sale horses are there to sell on that day. From the seller's perspective, arrangements are already made when they sign the contract and pay consignment fees which will - hopefully - result in a sold horse. Better luck next time,

Jan
 
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LisaF.

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Robin...In my oppinion you are twisting words.

In my first post ...I said everything...including the CC with my dad...asking for payment plans, etc.

Please re-read my post - I said MS. Hoffman did NOT owe me anything.

It was the way it was handled.

Your exact words to me was *****My miniumum bid could ONLY be $10,000.00 or more.

As you stated in your post I did tell you how much I could put down and how much I could pay per month.

So, why didn't you tell me what you are saying above?.......I e-mailed severel times. But, I do not think you spent several hourse talking to me on the internet.

I also told you during our phone converstation that I could not hear you...do you remember that?

Please re-read everything we said on the phone. I think you are upset and not taking the time to read it correctly.

I never said I had $7,000.00 to put down or in cash. I even stated that in my post.
 

Laura

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[SIZE=12pt]WOW
[/SIZE]

Lisa,

I'm sure you didn't know that payments are almost NEVER an option at an auction. An auction is to sell and to sell then. *I* accept payments on my LB Last Chance Auctions, but they are not live auctions where people are standing there with money in hand. It's the nature of the beast (a seller at an auction) to expect immediate payment. They are out their consignment fee and all expenses involved in getting the horse TO the sale, as well as the value of the horse and it's produce.

I have lost awesome horses by being a second too late and bought horses I shouldn't have by bidding to help up the bid~LOL I've also bought a LOVELY bred mare who died two days later, leaving me with a hole in my wallet AND a big vet bill.

An auction is what it is::::shrug::: I think the communication could have been better on all sides, but an auction is to SELL then, not to have to deal with details for months afterward.

I'm so sorry this was a bad experience for everyone involved
 

disneyhorse

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Hmmmm....

There are LOTS of horses in this world, and if you don't have the finances to buy one at the moment then perhaps it's not the right time to buy.

Generally at auctions, be it eBay or a horse auction... the money is required to be paid in full at auction close. An auction is not a good place to buy a horse if you don't have cash in hand. To do payments generally requires a private sale, because a detailed contract must be drawn up. Payment amounts, when they are due, what happens for a missed payment, board requirements, insurance requirements, interest, etc. all must be included in this contract.

In an auction, the seller puts the horse up not knowing how much they will get, but they will know the horse is sold. This is a good situation for a seller needing to move the animal immediately at a known time/date. The Little King sale is a good auction as well because the seller knows they will have their horse presented in an auction setting for the best advantage.

I am sorry you perceived this differently and are upset, but I don't think the circumstances are as horrible as you feel they are.

Andrea
 

whimsical

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I have to say that I have been at auctions that they did publically announce that you could visit with the owners about payment arrangements. I would think that some would consider this as it would allow people to bid higher.

I personally never have done that as I guess I typically have the fear of the unknown. I would be one that would wonder just as Lisa did about shipping, where the horse would reside, interest, board, etc.

But I now know to possibly expect a minimum bid amount to qualify for payment arrangements if I ever just ran into that "got to have horse".
 
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LisaF.

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Oh...I forgot to thank everyone for helping me out on learning about Auctions.

That is why I posted.

I even included in my post that I could be 100% wrong...because this was my first auction.

( I did forget in my post above except for the LB Auction).

If a Payment Plan was not considered I wish I would have been told UP FRONT!

Not to be told yes your payment plan has been APPROVED...but, you have to bid $10,000.00 or more.

Then I would have known as stated I could not afford that.

I was trying to be nice to Robin and NOT TELL about the e-mail of the $15,000.00.
 

minimomNC

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I have been to Little King for the sale, we bought two horses, I have been to several sales. I have never known anyone to take payments on a sale horse, the sale has to be paid before the consigner can get their money. Everything owed to the sale usually comes out of what the horse sales for. The way it sounds to me is Ms Hoffman would accept payments if the mare sold for $10,000 or more, anything less would have to be paid in full then.
 

Riverdance

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Auctions are not the best way to buy quality horses. There is no time to check their breeding history, legs bite etc, especially if you are not there. People get caught up in the bidding and end up spending, many times, more than they usually would. Then try and get your money back in a re-sale. Perhaps it happened for the best that you did not get this mare.

Plus, auctions are not the place to try and do payments. They want all of their money up front. What would happen if they sold a horse on payments, then the buyer backed out after a payment or two. The sale price would now be gone and the seller would be left with the horse.

You are much better off searching on line for the horse of your dream. Take the time to question everything, get photgraphs that are not professional shots. ( professional shots can be and are altered and are done to hide any faults that the horse may have).

There are many farms on Lilbeginnings with many really nice horses for sale. Many of those farms will also accept payment plans. So do not be bummed out, take your $7,000 and look for one or two horses that fit what you hope to be able to produce on your farm in the future.

And most of all GOOD LUCK!!
 
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Leeana

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Lisa im sorry you did not get the mare but i think both parties should stand back and take a breath
.

I've never heard of payments through auction, its a sale and the horse is to SALE. I think Robin stated the terms and if they could not be met, there is nothing more you can do. It is impossible to please everyone.

If i were you, i would contact the buying of that mare and see if you can lease or if the lady would be interested in co owning her (she just may!) ?

Leeana
 
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mininik

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You may have said that Ms. Hoffman didn't owe you anything here, but in the other post you did say:

I don't even want to explain on a forum what happened to me on the phone bid with Lot 60. ( Unless I get an ok from ML. ( I don't even think people will believe it) I can tell you I was in tears when I hung up. I don't blame Little King Farm( or I am trying not to anyway)...but, I can say I am NOT happy with Cherry Orchard Farm the one that sold this mare. If anyone wants to know you can PM me. ( I think my box is full) I will clean it out tonight or tomorrow. So, if you want to know keep trying until I empty my box.

I wonder what you're saying in PMs?
 
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LisaF.

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Riverdance ....You are right...and THANK YOU very much!

Robin...on the phone you told me my payment plan had been approved... I took that as the $1500.00 down and 250.00 per month..plus me paying for the insurance..but...my minimum bid had to be $10,000.00.

I e-mailed you several times asking about transportation, board fees,etc....maybe you did not get the e-mails.

Because you told me on the phone when you said my payment plan had been approved ...but, my miniumum bid had to be $10,000.00....You asked me if I received your e-mail and I told you NO. So, I am not saying you didn't get mine....I am saying I e-mailed it to you several times. So, I gave up thinking that there was no hope. ( well..the rest is in my first post)

Oh...I forgot who posted it...but, you are right I did say I was upset with Cherry Orchard Farms ( and trying not to be with LKF)......and down deep I guess I am. I just wish it would have been handled differently.

I do want to thank ALL the CALM posters for helping understand auctions.

Please remember I said this was my first time...I am LEARNING. I also hope someone else is learning from my experience.
 

Sterling

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Hi Lisa, I'm sorry you had such an experience this being your first auction and all. I'm sure you were very confused and very upset. What I've done in the past at auctions, be they livestock, horse or merchandise, I come prepped with cash on hand....always! Kind of like going to the Casino's (which I don't do) but just a "for instance". As others have mentioned, things go by swiftly in an auction setting and you have to be oin your tippy toes and there's no time for thinking things through...it's one, two three...over and done. I hope your next experience if you do decide to attend a sale is a good one.

Also just something I wanted to touch on......as in one of the other posts there was mention to "Junk" mare, horses or what-have-you. Last I looked, there is no such thing as a junk animal.
JMHO.
 

disneyhorse

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Lisa F... for most payment plans (I have purchased many horses on payments and have allowed many buyers to make purchases on payments) the typical time period on a contract to pay is generally six or twelve months. I have never seen a payment plan over twelve months.

Buying a horse is not like buying a car. If you have to make payments over twelve months the horse might be a little too expensive for you or you can get a loan from the bank, as a bank has more leverage and recourse should you become delinquent.

At $1500 deposit and $250 per month, you would have been making payments at a minimum of 17 months. That is a very long time. And at auction, who knows how high that horse may have gone?

For anyone else "learning" out there, this is what I have found to be an industry norm for payments. Either six or twelve months.

Personally, as someone GETTING payments for horses sold, twelve months is a VERY long time to hold papers and wait for payment in full. I can't imagine a much longer term. Unless I knew the person well, knew their reputation.

Andrea
 

Laura

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Also just something I wanted to touch on......as in one of the other posts there was mention to "Junk" mare, horses or what-have-you. Last I looked, there is no such thing as a junk animal.
JMHO.



I'm glad you mentioned that. That comment really upset me too. I know big farms have to maintain the quality of their herd, as do we
all..but "junk sale"???...so what's not up to par is just dumped somewhere with no regard for their future? THAT is offensive to me
 
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LisaF.

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THANK YOU STERLING...I don't think there junk animals either.

I paid $2,500.00 each for these two mares..a total of $5000.00...I just could not get one bred...but, she was so lovable. She would have made someone very happy. I hope she did. Little King farm is lucky to have the knowledge to get these mares bred.

Our closet vet is an hour away and he wouldn't even help us because she was a mini and only 30".

That is what I was trying to find out in the e-mails was a time limit to pay these mares off. ( I said in my other post...I could kick myself for not calling now...but, I was trying to show some respect because I knew the family was very busy).

I think this could have been handled very easy....If NO PAYMENTS WERE ALLOWED......Can someone please tell me why I was NOT told no payments allowed. Then I would have known in my very first e-mail.

I realize I made a mistake now..I have learned alot from it. I was just hoping others could learn from my mistake. I wouldn't want them to feel like I do.

Also, I was brought up *** I also taught my kids this

You won't learn anything if you don't ask questions.

In my defense....I did ask Robin If Ms. Hoffman would consider a payment plan. I didn't know there was anything wrong with asking a question. I still don't think there is anything wrong.

How do we learn if we never ask a question?
 

mininik

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I'm sure Robin didn't mean the "junk" horses were just disposed of. I wouldn't doubt they found homes as beloved pets somewhere. No doubt the horses aren't losing any sleep over a label indicating their lack of quality or dollar value.

Are you also teaching your kids to go Online and libel others when you failed to work out the wonky details of a potential purchase, Lisa? In response to your question asking why Robin didn't say payments weren't allowed, I believe she gave you the answer that payments were allowed if the horse sold for over $15K, then $10K. If you failed to connect with the seller or her representatives in time to settle the agreement should you have won the mare at auction, I don't believe you have any right to be upset with anyone at LKF or Ms. Hoffman. Going Online with the story presented as you have it, I don't believe your only intent was to educate others on "your" mistake.
 
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Laura

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I'm sure Robin didn't mean the horses were just disposed of. I wouldn't doubt they found homes as beloved pets somewhere. Remember... one man's trash is another man's treasure. No doubt the horses aren't losing any sleep over a label indicating their lack of quality or dollar value.
[SIZE=12pt]Unfortunately, before the ban on horse slaughter, MANY minis ended their days on a truck bound for a slaughter house...[/SIZE]
 
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