Moe is sick, from cherry toxicity to stomach ulcers

[mydaddysjag]

This past friday, we noticed that my boy Moe wasnt drinking much, looked a little bloated and also wasn't pooping. He didnt seem uncomfortable at all, was still eating his food, No pawing, rolling, biting his sides, lip in the air, nothing. I couldnt get the vet on the phone, but figured I better do the "routine". The first thing my vet had you do for even mild "colic" symptons is give a really soupy mash if you have ingredients (chopped hay, cubes, or pellets soaked in 1 gallon of water, with a little oil) and also milk of magnesia, and some infant gas drops. We also pull their feed for 12 - 24 hours, depending on how they are doing.

After the mash, M.O.M. and gas drops, he did poop. Infact, he pooped 6 times over night, which is how much he usually goes in 24 hours. I had walked him a little, because he didnt seem uncomfortable or tired, and figured if it was gass, the movement would help it pass through.

Saturday, he seemed a bit better, he was pooping, and the bloating wasnt completely gone, but went way down. I thought he was on the mend. He was overly cranky and didnt really want fussed with, but I figured he was still mad about the day before with getting the milk of magnesia (he doesnt like syringes in his mouth). Hes one of the friendliest horses Ive ever met, so its very out of character to see him pinning his ears. Saturday night we started him back on his pelleted feed, but I was soaking it in 1/2 gallon of water, and also soaking his hay.

Sunday he was about the same, still cranky, barely drinking, and pooping, but his poop seemed "sticky". It was more like "clusters" than apples if that makes sense, and although there were multiple piles through the day, they were smaller than I expected.

Sunday evening his attitude was the same, but the new change was that he walked away from his hay before he was done. This is my horse who could be nick named "hoover". He doesn't leave a single scrap in his stall, ever. I called and talked to my vet, and told her that I thought she needed to come out the next morning, as he still wasnt himself, and I thought it had been long enough to "wait and see" and she agreed.

This afternoon she came out to see Moe. His heart rate is up, and he has a LOT of gut sounds. She said she could hear them even when listening to his heart through his chest.

Although I keep my horses in a drylot, have no trees on my property, and my neighbors closest tree is 500 feet from my field, she believes that my horse ate wild cherry leaves, and has a sort of Cyanide poisoning from it. We had a wind storm over the weekend, and it is very possible that leaves could have blown over. I do use a leaf blower in the pasture daily, but "hoover" could have eaten a single leaf before I ever noticed it was in the pasture. There were leaves in other parts of our yard that fell from his tree. When the vet got there we didnt have any leaves in the pasture, but while she was there, sure enough, one blew into the pasture. I just worry about how many times this could have happened and we didn't know. The tree isn't on our property, or really close for us to notice it there among his other (non toxic) trees.

The vet said she was going to give him IV shots of a sort of antihistamine that would help neutralize the cyanide in his body causing and get his heart rate back down, and that I needed to give milk of magnesia 1oz twice daily for 5 days. She also said he MAY develop ulcers from this. When I got home I read the name of the drug she gave him, and she has "doctors" writing, but it looks to me like it says Nystan. When I tried to look this up, all I found was an antifungal drug used to treat fungal infections of the skin, mouth, vagina, and intestinal tract. I can only find information on pills and ointments.

When I got home I started reading up a bit on this, and If it was cherry leafs, Im surprised he wasn't sicker. He wasn't showing any signs of pain, and the only tale tale signs that something was wrong was not drinking as much as usual, not pooping as much, and late lastnight only eating half his hay, then coming back for the rest later. Everything I read about cherry poisoning said it comes fast and normally kills a horse before anything can be done, and it has very obvious symptoms. From what I understand, it normally kills a horse within hours. My horse was "off" for 2 and a half days. The vet said that the IV meds should have him acting 100% by tomorrow, but to continue the MOM for 5 days to help make sure everything is moved out of his system, and said it would help prevent ulcers by moving anything out of his system (never heard anything like that).

Has anyone ever had a horse thats eaten a cherry leaf? Any input?

Also, wanted to add, we talked to the neighbor, and he is allowing us to cut down the tree tomorrow.

 

[Marty]

I have trouble every fall with the oak leaves and the stupid acorns that fall in the barn yard. We've cut down the ones that bordered along that fence but with wind, they seem to still blow in from all over the place. I put up a temporary fence for this reason every year. Its such a pain.

For any type of suspected poison issues I would use activated charcoal.

 

[AnnaC]

So sorry this is happening to your little man and am hoping that he makes a speedy recovery.

I cant offer you any extra help or suggestions but just wanted to say that M O M is an anti-acid and will gently keep his system in a more alkaline mode, thus making it less likely for ulcers to form or to be irritated by the extra acid often associated with an upset digestive system.

Good luck and please let us know how he progresses.

 

[Genie]

Sounds horrible. Can't be of any help but appreciate the reminder of the types of ordinary things that cause bad problems.

 

[Carolyn R]

I am glad things did not work out worse. Remember you can not control every leaf that blows into your turnout. You will drive yourself crazy trying. My suggestion is to make sure he has a well balance diet offering al lthe nutrients he needs and to invest in several of the busy snackers and hang them around your turnout at different spots. Remember a chunky horse with a hay belly is still a healthy horse that is ALIVE. It is only for the next two months until the leaves have fallen and dried up.

This will keep him busy and keep him at a slow "grazing" pace when it comes to his hay. If it is a neighbors tree you probably can't cut it down (just read that your neighbor is letting you cut it down, yeah!), but you can look at a list of toxic trees and plants and make sure you can try to eliminate or drastically reduce the numbers on the property.

Did they check his blood count?

I have not dealt with wild cherry or choke cherry poisoning, but going back 7+ years ago I did deal with a fatal case of red leaf maple poisoning. The horse had an obsession with nosing around for roots and scavanging. It wasn't a lack of selenium, he was given suppliments that had these. Sadly, when the symptoms were visible it was too late. It comes on quickly, it doesn't take much in the way of leaves for it to be fatal. With red maple, it is only when they are red, after they are brown and dried out they are no longer fatal. We live at the foot of a mountain, it has acres and acres of trees. It was not practicle to try to cut down every potentially dangerous tree in the area, but the ones immediately surrounding the area were cut and down the horses are offered several feedings of hay throughout the day. Come fall they are offered free choice hay. As I said, a live chunky horse is still ALIVE. I don't know if it would have made a difference with the horse I dealt with years ago since he was sucha scavanger, but in almost 30 years of owning horses it was the only time I have ever dealt with such a scenario.

There may be better options now, but at the time vitamin C and charcoal paste were immediately admininstered to try to help break down/nuetralize the toxins. The only other option was to do a transfusion at a center 1.5 hours away (with a low success rate), but he was crashing too quickly to go that route.

year round and especially going into fall this is a great reminder to others to be on th elook out for natures hazards!

 

[mydaddysjag]

Thanks for the suggestions. I actually have 4 of the busy snackers already, I have the ones with the 1.5" holes. Thats what I feed all of my hay in, both in the stalls, and during turnout for both horses. It takes my guys about 2.5 hours to empty them. Actually, Moe is a bit quicker, but it still takes him at least an hour and 45 minutes to finish one. Since its winter, Im feeding 4-5lbs of hay twice daily. I usually do weigh my hay, but If 4lbs of hay doesn't make the busy snacker completely full, I add more until it is. Domingo is 275lbs, Moe is just over 300lbs. Their hay is a high quality 3rd cut timothy grass hay, and I also feed about 25% of their hay in second cut alfalfa to help prevent stomach ulcers. Both horses are on the purina mini horse and pony feed, and I feed it according to their weight, along with free choice salt and minerals. Moe is also on remission.

The vet didn't check his blood count, only said his blood was really thin.

Im not sure Moe was eating the leaves because he was hungry or deficient for something, but hes the kind of horse who gets bored and will eat ANYTHING. He acts starving all the time, but his body condition tells a different story, lol.

Last night he whinnied at feeding time, and had his ears perked up. He's still not on grain, but along with his regular hay, at feeding time I give him chopped timothy/alfalfa soaked in his regular feed pan, to keep him happy when he see's Domingo getting his feed. You know horses, even though he has hay, if he sees his brother getting a feed pan, hes mad until he has one too.

This morning he was a bit grumpy, but not nearly as bad as he had been the past few days. He is pooping, and they look a bit better, but I think hes still not drinking enough. A week ago this horse drank nearly an entire "big horse" bucket within 24 hours. Now Im lucky if he drinks 3" from the bucket. We have always wet their feed when we feed them, so I dont think it has anything to do with the water being added to his chopped hay. I tried to get him to drink some Gatorade, and he wont touch it. Tried soaking his hay in it, and he flipped his feed bowl, waited for the Gatorade to drain off, then ate it.

Any tips on getting him to drink? Ive never had the Gatorade not work, my other horses would drink it from a squirt bottle.

 

[bevann]

Good for your neighbor for allowing you to cut down the cherry tree.In my experience the leaves can be very toxic especially when they are going through the wilt stage.Several years ago we had a mare with a white muzzle.Looked at her 1 morning and muzzle and eyes were very yellow.After many days at the vet and all kinds of tests it was determined that she had eaten something toxic.Elimination of everything else pointed to wild cherry leaves.From doing some reading I discovered some animals can eat them while green and some totally wilted(brown) and some not at all.Good thing you caught it quickly.Around here the only good tree is anything other than wild cherry and red maple.You have to be ever vigilant.Wild cherry trees pop up overnight and grow really fast.the seeds are carried by birds in their droppings and can grow anywhere.Good luck with your buddy.

 

[Carolyn R]

Busy snackers are also great for feeding soaked hay! Soak the hay, drain off the water and put the in the snacker. Hay will absorb water quicker if you use warm water and give it a good 20-30 minute soak. You can get tons of water into them like this. That is wonderful that the neighbor is letting you take the tree down!

 

[bevann]

I have several that don't like to drink enough to suit me.I put their sweet feed or senior feed in a bucket with 3 inches or more of water in bucket.If they want the feed they have to dive for it.I put it in a 5 gallon bucket and hang it so they can't tilt the bucket and dump it.sometimes you just have to get creative.Minis are the smartest equi8ne breed I have ever owned.sometimes it is a challenge staying ahead of them.

 

[mydaddysjag]

Moe is still not well, and Im hoping some forum members can offer some insight. He has been sick now since September 23rd, so going on 11 days. My vet said that he should seem 100% within 24-48 hours, but we were to continue the treatment for 5 days. He is off of the treatment, but still "off". To save some typing, Im going to copy and paste the facebook updates I have made about Moe. Im reaching out to all horse friends for ideas.

Moe hasn't shown a huge improvement yet, but is pooping now, and eating his hay. We have him off of grain for the time being, as what he has can cause ulcers. He still doesn't want to drink, not even Gatorade, and hes still crabby, pinning ears etc. Normally this guy drinks a full 5 gallon bucket a day, poops about 6 big piles, and is the friendliest horse Ive ever met. Him being crabby might be because hes tired of me messing with him and giving him meds, he did whinny at my parents the other day. Im starting to suspect he did end up getting the ulcers the vet warned me might happen. He has been being treated for ulcers since he got sick, as the vet said it was possible this could cause ulcers also.

Horse friends: Any tips on getting a horse to drink? Vets already been out to see him. Hes getting a VERY soupy alfalfa/beet pulp/oil mash to get some water in him, has regular water, have tried gatorade and koolade, apple juice, warm water, cool water, different buckets, bucket on the floor and bucket hung on the wall, a small amount of electrolytes, salt, I have him off of grain while hes recovering from being sick so cant try throwing a handful in a bucket of water...

Moe didnt touch his hay this morning, only picked at his hay tonight. Dove into his beet pulp/alfalfa mash though. Going to have to call the vet back out, or find somewhere to take him in to. Hes been sick for 10 days now, should have been completely better now.

We spent the entire savings on moe's treatment for the cyanide poisoning, and the medications that went along with it. Right now I am broke, but have a credit card through "care credit" a credit card you can use for vet expences that has a $500 limit on it. My vet does not take it, but there is a vet clinic with an inhouse lab, and hospital that does take it. I have never used these vets before, but they do have equiptment my vet does not have (my vet strictly does farm calls).

 

[Eagle]

I am so sorry that he still isn't well, I will keep praying for him. One thing you could try is cut up some apple or carrot (whichever he prefers) feed him a few then put the rest in a bucket with 2 inches of water or at least enough so they move around. If he is well enough to play with it he will get water.

Do you have a paypal account?

 

[mydaddysjag]

I'll try the carrots and apples in the morning and see if that interests him enough to get some water into him. I have both on hand, and its worth a shot. I do have a paypal account.

 

[Eagle]

Well I am far from rich myself right now as I have had a bad colic and then a dystocia to pay for but I wouldn't mind helping in a very small way and maybe some others could too. Even a small amount is better than nothing. Think about it

 

[mydaddysjag]

I took Moe to the Equine Hospital today, as I wasn't happy with my vets recommended treatment (wait and see). Over the weekend Moe not only quit drinking, he quit eating too. He wouldn't touch hay or his mash. I decided that enough was enough, I wanted answers now. Even if the answers weren't exactly "whats wrong" I did want to at least know what wasn't wrong.

Got him to the hospital around 1pm. He has a very in depth physical exam. She spent over an hour doing his physical, checking all over. She pulled blood work and ran it while we were there. He had an electrolyte panel, a CBC, and a wellness chemistry panel. His results were all within normal, with the exception of dehydration, but she expected the dehydration. While it didnt give us any real answers as to whats wrong, it ruled out infection, kidney or liver issues, etc. which were a big worry. She felt that my regular vet wasnt treating the issue of possible ulcers aggressively enough. She feels that the cherry leaf caused colic, and ulcers. While the poisoning seems to have passed, it left us with ulcers, which are causing discomfort. She tubed him with electrolyte water and oil, and ran a bag of fluids. He is on a full regemine of ulcer treatment (not preventative) for 30 days now. Right now Im buying the tubes of ulcergard one by one, as we couldn't afford everything today, even with putting a good chunk of the balance on the carecredit. Right now we are back at "wait and see" but atleast my mind is settled a bit knowing his kindeys and liver are alright.

 

[Charlotte]

I read all through this and I'm so glad this vet recognized ulcers. I have come to the conclusion that minis are way more likely to develop ulcers than big horses are and most vets don't seem to recognize ulcers.....which has cost me thousnads of dollars in tests and other treatments.

We have real good luck treating with Ulcerguard plus Ranitidine (generic Zantac from WalMart pharmacy)plus Sucralfate for 3 days. This seems to get them back to eating and drinking in just a few hours. It has been our experience that with Ulcerguard (omeprazole) only it takes 3-5 days to begin improvement.

I hope your boy comes around quickly for you

 

[mizbeth]

Yes, I agree with Charlotte, after reading the first few posts realized he probably has an ulcer. I would be buying GASTROGUARD and not ULCERGUARD as the former is for ulcers, the later for prevention of them (it is not as strong). You can also use Carafate (Sulcrafate) it is much less expensive than gastroguard and is very very good in healing ulcers.

Yes, toxic plants are hard hitting and death usually before you get help to them - but typically nothing can save them from cyanide poisoning. (Also horses do not usually eat anything that is toxic - "usually" do not eat - but of course we know they do, otherwise we would not know it was toxic to them)

 

[Eagle]

How is he doing today?

 

[mydaddysjag]

Yesterday he was still pretty lethargic and crabby, but did eat all of his mash, and half of his hay. I feed two different hays, both in his busy snacker hay feeder. I feed half third cutting timothy, half third cutting alfalfa (cant find decent alfalfa mix hay here, so I "mix" it myself). He seems to prefer eating the alfalfa, but about halfway through eating, he just loses interest. Ive been feeding the same hay since the beginning of august and my other horse is eating the same hay, so I don't think its the hay that is an issue.

The new vet feels that the possible ulcer wasn't the start of this, she feels that something caused the ulcers, but since she wasn't initially the one to treat him, she's not sure what initially caused this. She did the bloodwork and didn't come up with anything, so right now we are treating the possible ulcer, and seeing if there is an improvement. I did mistype above, he is on the GastroGard, not UlcerGard. I always confuse the two. Im getting it straight from the vet. I can find it at least $10 a tube cheaper elsewhere, but have to get it from my vet so it can go on my care credit card. The week before Moe got sick the motor went in our car, and we had $700 in unexpected non-horse bills this month, along with treating Moe for the Cyanide poisoning, I'm just literally broke. My husband had his hours at work cut about 50% in September which was unexpected too. I guess when it rains it pours.

I see a few people like to use the Sucrulfate as well as the gastrogard. My vet only has him on the gastrogard, along with a specific feeding schedule. Do you notice a big difference vs. using just the gastrogard? What dose does your vet normally have you give? I talked to my new vet about the sucrulfate and she said she would be happy to prescribe it, but we have to order it from the pharmacy, its not something the clinic keeps in stock, they normally just treat with gastrogard. The tablets we can order are 1 gram tablets. I think she said Moe would need 3 tablets, 3 times a day, not within 30 minutes of having his gastrogard. Is that similar to what your vet prescribes? Im planning to order the sucrulfate after payday.

 

[Magic]

Just the Gastrogard should heal any ulcers with no help from other drugs. I just read about a recent study about ulcers and it said that Gastrogard is the best, and actually the only, thing that they've found to actually heal ulcers.

I hope your boy makes a full and QUICK recovery!

 

[mydaddysjag]

Ok. When I spoke to the vet she said the gastrogard cuts down the amount of acid in the horses stomach so the acid wasnt burning the ulcer, but the sucrulfate made a protective coating over the ulcer that actually helped heal it. Glad to hear that the gastrogard alone works too though, as I cant afford the sucrulfate right now.