Modern Shetland Minis

[kaykay]

I have to whole heartedly disagree about dispositions. When we first started we bought a miniature mare and a modern pleasure pony within 2 weeks. My son Kyle's first show horse was the Modern Pleasure pony at 9 years old. Anyone that watched the two show years ago will tell you that Kyle is her boy. Even in her stall she would watch everywhere he went. And now his show gelding Jet does the same thing. At the Ohio World Show Kyle and I had to show in the ring at the same time and handed Jet off to a friend. He was so upset and looking for Kyle the whole time. Kyle also shows our ASPC/AMHR mare Promise. I would never hand horses off to my son that I didnt feel safe about. I really think unless you have been around them or owned one you cannot truly understand what wonderful horses they are. And the great thing about ASPC/AMHR is there is a type for everyone.

Kyle at 9 showing his Modern Pleasure Pony

Kyle showing Jet

Kyle and Promise

 

[sdmini]

Kay I knew you would.

Sorry but my family has owned several ASPC horses over the years, not to mention the those vile riding pones that seemed to have dropped from the sky (or crawled up from heck) as they "of course" have no shetland blood in them.

(ok I've always got a bit of amusement from the double standard of ASPC taking all the credit for minis but denying any involvment with those horrible riding ponies.)

We also helped (clipped, oh lord I remember the clipping) several for two ASPC dispersals a few years back.

I love a bit of attitude in my horses, my NBHA horses were H.O.T. In general ASPC horses are wired different, not better, not worse...different. Border Collies are the smartest dog but are not for me because they are wired to tight. I love my Blue Heeler as he has the great, "shove off" attidude that is perfect for me. His is not better than the Collie, just different.

 

[Leeana]

I might as well throw in a word or two about temperment too...

For the most part my shetlands are more "awake" and "on" then a few of my minis..i have a classic filly that i will not let my nephews work with, well my older nephew who is 14 will handle her, but my 6 year old nephew im just not comfortable with that. Then there is my foundation 37" gelding...he is a big bunny who would hop right into your pocket if you would let him. He is the one i really allow myself to baby as with him i can baby him at home and then take him into the ring and ask him to show and he will show for me. I am slighly attached to him

.

I do not like deadhead spoiled horses. I love my minis...i fell in love with them before i got my first shetland..but the shetlands are just all that and more to me and i also am a believer in bigger is better..i like my shetlands big as in the 42" range too.

 

[ruffian]

I've been around horses and ponies a lot of years, and In My Opinion I don't want modern shetlands in my miniature horse show. There were several horses that were obviously modern aka hackney at nationals. One in particular was very exaggerated in the open pleasure class and should not have placed but did - 5th I think. If you want to have hackney action in driving, put them in fine harness or viceroy.

One way to fix that is to add to the rule for open that too much action should be discouraged and not placed. Or if they want to show as Miniatures, they give up their pony papers. Simple as that.

The miniature horse breed has been the bread winner for many years. Is letting the ponies take over the show arena going to affect that? If they can't support the registry with their own show successfully, are they going to hurt the AMHR?

 

[horsefeather]

OK, I have sat on my hands so far.....BUT, I SO agree with sdmini!! We have a few shetlands (foundation) but give me the personality of a mini every time. I'm just too old to handle bigger, hotter horses. Hopefully we won't have to worry too much. There are still lots of folks breeding the 'mini only' (smaller, patient, will let you do anything--can't really see a shetland going into a nursing home

) that people can still purchase for their smaller children or folks that are afraid of big horses. I'm not a fan of halter anyway, and I love driving and obstacle, so guess I'll just stick to those.

Pam

 

[Boinky]

unfortunatly wording the rules as 'too much action to be penalized" DOES NOT WORK.. look at where the country pleasure class has gone and that is pretty much how that classes wording is phrased too... they had to make a new division because the pleasure horses were going CP. i do not see a problem with moderns in the park classes.

I also disagree with shetland temperments. yes some of them are a little hotter/crazy but many of them are not. I have some that are more mellow and mild mannered than my "pure"mini's. they are all studs. Infact i have a ASPR half hackney half shetland stallion who is a marshmallow. he's a very good boy. he's definaly a bit hotter about certain things than my others but i think it could be a very wrong steryotype to class all shetlands as wild crazy, hotter ect.

 

[disneyhorse]

People need to EDUCATE themselves about Shetlands before they make sweeping generalizations that make them appear ignorant and close-minded to those who ARE educated.

Some "myths" and stereotypes about Shetlands that I have noted as late by the "older-mini-pony-haters"

1. Shetland ponies are hotter, crazier, and harder to handle than Minis

2. Shetland ponies are not as suitable for children/youth

3. Modern Shetlands are anything more extreme than the average mini

Sooooorrry but I have had both and don't find any of this to be consistently true.

Andrea

 

[classic carr minis]

The thing that bugs me are there where horse at AMHR Nationals thats where to tall and untill the people stop letting hen just because of who they are it will not stop and the next thing we will see it who know where it will stop people should stop asking to put there horses in the show is hard to compete aginsta 46 inch horse when you ony have a 34 1/2 inch horse

 

[muffntuf]

I agree with boinky, wording does not work in the rules. And I am looking at it from the ASPC side. I showed MP classes last year where an extreme moving pony who should have been in the Modern classes, placed first in the class. IT WAS EXTREME MOTION. The wording of the rules states "Extreme action should not be placed...."

This year I saw some MP's creep down into the Classic Pleasure classes, and again the extreme motion wording was ignored. The MP was placed over the obvious classic Pleasure ponies.

So if we change wording or word strongly or something to that effect, we need to be willing to enforce penalties to the judges first of all, possibly the exhibitor and then finally possbily the owner. Or what good are our rules?

So Yaddax3 and everyone else debating, discussin, mulling over, thinking, etc. this movement, let's look at long term effects and be prepared to call "Here Here" for enforcement.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

People need to EDUCATE themselves about Shetlands before they make sweeping generalizations that make them appear ignorant and close-minded to those who ARE educated.Some "myths" and stereotypes about Shetlands that I have noted as late by the "older-mini-pony-haters"

1. Shetland ponies are hotter, crazier, and harder to handle than Minis

2. Shetland ponies are not as suitable for children/youth

3. Modern Shetlands are anything more extreme than the average mini

Sooooorrry but I have had both and don't find any of this to be consistently true.

Andrea

Hi Andrea,

I realize this thread really isn't a debate about the temperment of a shetland versus the temperment of a mini and I agree 100% with you that the "myths" may not be consistently true. HOWEVER, from my own personal perspective, being a 42 year old woman, not in the best physical shape, born and bred as a "city girl" that the minis IN GENERAL are better fits for me. I can (for the most part!

) keep up with them while trotting, I can physically hold on to the lead if one decides to act like a freak, if they rear up and strike they aren't as close to my head as a larger (taller) pony would be. They are just plain safer for me.

I've owned a Modern. He was a stallion when he arrived here and soon gelded. He was recoverying from strangles (I bought him half dead from an auction for $110) so he wasn't at total strength. But as he recovered, gained weight, etc, he became heck on hooves! I can remember even putting an ad on the sale board titled "Disrespectful Pony For Sale" because I just couldn't deal with him anymore. Then his original owner/breeder actually moved in with us and worked as our barn helper. He has lots of experience specifically with ponies and he straightened him out right away. He became a loveable, totally managable horse. And when he left when he original owner moved out I actually cried. But...I won't have another one. It's just not for me...just like minis aren't for everyone either. BTW, I later learned that this Modern's dam was actually a hackney and not a shetland. Don't know if that makes a difference or not in the disposition.

I personally would like to see the American MINIATURE Horse Registry National Show be about miniatures - any animal 38" and under. Until such time, if ever, the miniature horse becomes a breed with a real type and standard and not height based, it's all we have to work with. There is nothing I or anyone else can do about the pony influence with the way the registry currently operates. But I joined because I fell in love with miniatures, the tiniest of the tiny specifically.

 

[Sanny]

I agree with boinky, wording does not work in the rules. And I am looking at it from the ASPC side. I showed MP classes last year where an extreme moving pony who should have been in the Modern classes, placed first in the class. IT WAS EXTREME MOTION. The wording of the rules states "Extreme action should not be placed...."
This year I saw some MP's creep down into the Classic Pleasure classes, and again the extreme motion wording was ignored. The MP was placed over the obvious classic Pleasure ponies.

I agree on this point.........and I have read parts of the rule book more than once to understand exactly what the judges are supposed to be looking for and not every judge follows the standards or guidelines set up within the rule book.

If more and more extreme moving ponies continue showing up in AMHR classes maybe they should find a way to make room for yet another type/style for minis -- Modern Pleasure -- and they can all compete more fairly against each other instead of going into Pleasure or Country Pleasure where right now for the most part instead of being penalized as being off-type, they are being placed over other horses that are true to that style.

 

[Echo Acres]

I just had this same topic with a couple friends/trainers/breeders today while picking up our new addition. First off I have to say that I think these modern shetlands have a beautiful high stepping trot and I love to watch them. But that is as far as I go. I too have little kids and they tend to be more than I want around the farm. Also I have to agree with Sanny and Yaddax. These horses do not belong competing against the miniatures who belong in the class. That would be like taking a western country pleasure horse and competing with a pleasure or roadster horse and expecting it to win. It won't happen. But then again I don't agree with taking a pleasure horse who is doing well and dropping it down to Country pleasure so it can win everything. These horses need to be penalized as in my opinion do not meet the guidelines in the rule book. Maybe we need to compare them to the quarter horses. They finally realized the gimpy four beet lope and nose dragging on the ground was not correct and have started to penalize for it. The same should happen with horses that have too much motion for the class they are in.

We discussed today that a major problem first and foremost is enforcing the measuring. Some of these shetlands towered over the rest of class, I just can't imagine that they "truly" measured what they were showing in. Since AMHR is a height registry we need to figure out a way to enforce it and start there. I also agree that the miniature came about from the breeding of the shetland except for maybe the Arenosa, but a lot has changed since then. I don't think it is a bad thing to have shetland in their background, but we need to stick to our guns. Most people can't afford to constantly buy and sell horses to keep up with the trend. Especially if you are a small breeder. I believe if you are a good breeder you take your time and do your homework on bloodlines. Well, the way things are going by the time you find a good horse to add to your program you need to start all over and find something else.

I don't think that this trend will stick around for the long run and eventually it will come back to where it should be.

 

[kaykay]

you knew i couldnt let that disposition comment go.

Its funny to me that most people who come here cannot tell the aspc/amhr from the amha/amhr or amhr. I have heard many other breeders say the same thing.

You dont have to be rich to add different blood into your herd. I am not rich by any means. But if you dont like the ASPC/AMHR horses then dont buy them.

Its also funny that people keep calling it a fad or trend. These small ponies have been around forever!! One of the first shows I did 8 years ago had an aspc/amhr horse that was winning and people were grumbling way back then. Ive said over and over many pony farms have always bred small ponies for 20 plus years. Winks coming to mind as one of the oldest and biggest. How many of you have Winks in your miniature pedigrees??

And I do not think things change nearly as fast as people say. Watch the breeders that are consistently winning. You will see that they are breeding the same stallion that they have been for years. But maybe they buy some different mares. Or add in an out cross stallion. Its not like they throw out the entire herd but they constantly evolve

 

[muffntuf]

boinky - from your post: "We discussed today that a major problem first and foremost is enforcing the measuring. Some of these shetlands towered over the rest of class, I just can't imagine that they "truly" measured what they were showing in. "

I had the same thing happen at a show in Waterloo, IA. They were the invitational classes, which are pay out classes. I had a double registered ASPC/AMHR enter into the Miniature driving class. There was another double registered ASPC/AMHR in the same class, but I have known that one for a few years now and know it consistently measures in at a little less than 38".

Anyways, as the managerof the pay out classes, I called a hault to the class because this mare looked to be way over 38". Called the show steward in and low and behold, without stretching the mare out, she measured in at 38" on the dot.

The point, she towered over the other miniatures! The only one that came close was the other miniature I have known for years. The difference, these two had longer legs and a bit leaner in build. Makes them look like giants.

This same mare I questioned won the National Championship at R Nationals in her class this year.

So back to the rules, we do need enforcement of the rules, otherwise, why have them. But only the general membership can influence those that judge and steward by the rules.

This year at Congress I myself questioned the measuring of two of my ponies as I knew they were incorrect. One I had to have measured 3 times. Funny how a pony can grow 2" in 30 days!

On the disposition thing - I have heard a lot of people mention that ASPC ponies are hot. I thought that too. But now I have AMHR, ASPC Classic, Modern Pleasure and ASPR ponies (supposedly the hottest). All are pocket ponies. Even my yearling filly Tulip, although she thinks she is hot and when she is shown, she shows off, she has a pretty good temperment.

I would never rule out a shetland pony, foundation, classic, Modern Pleasure or Modern for a child. It's all a learning process, but ponies and miniatures are smart, they figure out who is on the end of the lead pretty quickly and they adjust fairly quickly.

Personally I have seen a trainer show a pony in Modern and they were he** bent down the rail. Turn around and hand the pony to a youth and the pony watches the youth to see how much and when it is expected to move down the rail and how fast. But on the caution side, I would never let a youth handle a pony without some practice lessons either, that would be unwise, just like in miniatures.

 

[TomEHawk]

O.K., being that I had some of the "moderns" at the AMHR Nationals, I guess I should say something. First off, mine did measure in under 38" with ease. I made sure that they where square and not stretched at all when I went and measured for the stewards. Now, I only showed in the park harness division and in that class I had the biggest mini. I don't know about any others in any other classes.

Second, making more classes. I don't like that idea. We already have around 350 classes at Nationals. If trainers/breeders would show the "moderns" in the driving divisions they belong in, then I think there wouldn't be much of an argument. But, like in the ASPC divisions, it's really up to the judges to determine what "extreme movement" is.

Next, the "modern shetland" type minis usually don't place well in halter. The moderns usually don't have nice heads and even though the necks are long and upright, most are "u" necked as well. Very rarely do they compete in AMHR halter divisions.

Now, as for the moderns being unfit for younger children. I think some people have only listened to the bad side of the shetland stories. My son, along with childern from the Taylor family, Brumm family, Roberts family, Brubacker family, Becker family, and many other well known families in the ASPC and Hackney have been showing these, supposed crazy, ponies for many years. And would argue till our faces turn blue that these ponies aren't sutiable for youn children. Yes, my stake roadpony might not be sutiable for some children, (my son and more experienced kids excluded), but I wouldn't ask for these youth to show a horse like that. But, could also say the same for my 31" park harness mini. Yes, the moden side of the shetland breed are bred a bit hotter, but if the pony is trained correctly and the child knows how to handle/drive, then there is no reason that a 46" modern harness pony is any harder to drive than 33" western country pleasure driving mini.

 

[disneyhorse]

Exspony... your Park Mini was GORGEOUS... I got to watch the Stake class online and I LOVED that there were "actual" Park Harness minis at Nationals for once

I agree with everything you wrote! Most true Modern Shetlands, as in the ones that would show in the Modern division as a Shetland, are not the "pretty" halter horses that win as minis. That's why I think people are uneducated as to the difference between an extreme Classic Shetland versus a Modern Shetland. I'm not sure some miniature horse people understand the difference... I sure did not when I first got into the Shetlands. I had to actually go research Shetlands and see them and check them out in person at the shows and it still took a long while to realize the difference between the divisions.

The miniature horse breed is great BECAUSE there is a vast difference in type. I assure everyone, if you took ALL the Stake and Grand Champion winning horses, there would NOT be all AMHR/ASPC horses. The trainers and breeders are looking for a winning edge though, and if an ASPC/AMHR animal can bring something to their stock (be it either movement, neck set, overall refinement, presence, whatever) then obviously they are going to incorporate it into their program.

I just cannot believe how defensive people get about something they don't know a lot about. They see a big influx of ASPC horses and get alarmed, and rather than go with the flow and see what the fuss is about, they try to defensively shoot it down. Obviously a lot of people LIKE it, from judges to trainers to breeders to hobby showmen, so it can't be THAT BAD? Yet they cling to somewhat stereotypical arguments such as "our old style minis are easier to handle and good for kids!" rather than go out and find a nice, sweet ASPC/AMHR animal (oh they can be found! All of mine were VERY suitable for beginners and children!)

Andrea

 

[Carrie12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shetlan...ies_ca_1900.jpg

The thing that cracks me up is that the papered "shetlands" of today have way less shetland blood than the everyday mini. Click on the link above and you will see that the real shetlands resemble minis way more than the modern shetlands which are mostly hackney blood and influence along with welsh (for the Classic shetlands). I like them all and do not have anything to say about whether they should be allowed to show or not. I just think it's funny that what we call shetlands today and those that have shetland papers are less shetland blood than the under 34" minis most of which do not carry shetland papers. Long time breeders know that the shetlands were crossed on hackneys and welsh and that's what INCREASED the size and dramatically changed the conformation of the small shetland ponies of old. Ironic that the minis which have more true shetland blood and in general resemble the true shetlands of the shetland isles do not carry shetland papers while the horses that are being called pure shetlands are mostly hacnkey and welsh influence.

 

[hafpints]

I think that modern shetland miniatures should have their own classes at shows and not show with the miniatures. I have bought some nice stock over the years and I love most of my horses and I ma not going to sell them just because they are not up to snuff at the shows. Why is it that 7 years ago when I got into miniatures that we wanted the short and correct ones and now they want the legs. I am sorry but some of those smaller framed ones you just cannot get those long legs to look right on them. I even showed AMHA this year and there were AMHA/AMHR/ASPC there competing I just do not feel that it is right to push people out because they don't have the money to keep up with Jones' in the Miniature horse world. I will not breed Shetland into my minis I have owned ornery minis, but I have met shetland that are far worse attitude wise than the miniatures ever could think to be.

 

[Echo Acres]

Carrie12, I think you just brought up a good point, but I think I am going to look at it a different way. See I totally understand the shetland blood in miniatures. But I grew up on shetlands. The old shetlands and they are no way shape and form the same today. (that is probably a good thing) When you mentioned that they are being crossed with hackney type horses there is where I see the problem. These are not miniatures they are ponies. And yes I have to say that this year the Hackney type ponies were not winning. But a couple years ago at nationals a miniature that looked all Hackney won some major awards and there was more than one horse. That is where I feel and many others think they should stay at congress. There are many double registered minis that are beautiful, look like minis, but have some qualities of the shetland. As Yaddax and Sanny say they have a couple. Honestly I didn't realize they were double registered right away. Now that is right type of breeding. And they are winning.

I have an idea. Rather than create these new classes for these horses that don't fit the class description, why don't we breed for a top quality horse that actually meets the requirements of the class. If they don't, the horse should not be shown in it, or should be pennalized or disqualified for not meeting what is expected.

 

[Lewella]

American Shetland pre 1900....

From imported Shetland stock and not a bit of Hackney, Welsh or anything else in him!

People continually forget or ignore the fact that the Shetland Pony in the UK used to come in different body types too! The folks of Shetland preferred one type, the US buyer preferred another. Man breeds for what he likes and what is in demand where he is and the American and UK Shetland had a different look from the beginning. The people breeding Shetlands were breeding for a different look in the US than in the UK.

Really, I highly doubt there is as much Hackney or Welsh blood in most American Shetlands as people often think. Yes, there was behind the barn hanky panky but was every single breeder doing it? Unlikely! Some were selectively breeding from what they had which was already for the most part more refined because refinement was what US buyers demanded from the very first imports on.