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Chandler@RoyalPalm

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When is the last time you stopped and evualted your dreams and goals with your envolvement with minis? Lets all take this moment and do so... Below is a copy of my post from another thread... If you constantly continue in the line of thought its amazing what can be achieved in a short period... ANYTHING is possible that you set your mind to. Below is part of a post from another thread...

First ask yourself how true is the saying "you get what you pay for?" There are only a few exceptions I have seen to that rule from many years of searching the market for horses... With that in mind, honestly, how do you expect the market to go higher than $500-$2000 on all these horses... Maybe the hard fact is thats what there worth? Like I said there are exceptions "sometimes".

Then stop and think there has to be some type of market for people to continue breeding them. Maybe thats the pet market?.... Theres always going to be low selling horses and high selling horses... How about we all focus and spend our time on what market we want to be in and horses to produce. In doing that we will be able to achieve those goals faster than if we worry about everybody elses place in the world. JMHO..... You just cant make people pay more you have MAKE something that would want them to pay more ;)

So if your happy with what your doing and achieved your on the right track... If you have the desire to do and get more nows the time to get started! So lets not here the market for high dollar horses is not slow you just need to market and represent your horse in a professional manner and get out to the public. Or theres to many low priced in the market and set your pace on what you want to achieve.

Again just my honest opinion and 2 cents ;)
 
Excellent post, Chandler.
 
Nice post Chandler.

I don't post very often but wanted to reply that your post sums it up very well.

:saludando:

Tommy
 
What a great post Chandler!

I see discussions so often about the dollar amounts people place on miniatures to the point it feels many are obsessed with the mini market. It makes me wonder how much they really love what they're raising.

My husband and I have literally spent a fortune to acquire the right horses for our miniature appaloosa breeding program so I'm unable to relate to the market for miniature horses being a poor one. Though our personal goals are to produce AMHA top ten placing spotted minis and enjoy reading about others doing well with their similar goals, I also enjoy reading about the folks who love their pet minis and enjoy them in other ways too.

Dawn
 
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Well, everyone also needs to be realistic and understand that no matter how professional their presentation of their horses is one simply cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear so their horses market value will have to reflect that.
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: What's more, why so many in this breed think they have to have their own mediocre breeding stallion(s) is beyond me.
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: Breed your mares to outside stallions who not only have it in them to WIN but also to PRODUCE. GELD, GELD, GELD!!! This industry needs to get it together to seriously promote GELDINGS. Also, this may come as a real "shocker," but just because she has a uterus does NOT mean that mare needs to (or should) be bred. :new_shocked: IMO there will always be enough pet quality horses being produced by show horse producers to where there needn't be a bunch of breeders focusing on producing "pets"...
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Well, everyone also needs to be realistic and understand that no matter how professional their presentation of their horses is one simply cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear so their horses market value will have to reflect that.
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IMO there will always be enough pet quality horses being produced by show horse producers to where there needn't be a bunch of breeders focusing on producing "pets"...
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Now that is something I can totally agree with MiniNik and THAT totally makes sense to me

I just keep saying the longer I am in this breed the less I feel the need to breed- and the more I enjoy my horses
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I agree with so much of this.

Another EXCELLENT reason to breed to outside stallions is the fact that you get FREE advertising in the form of their promotion and showing of their stallion!

Your stock will sell that much more easily if you were to have foals by him (as long as you keep your mares at a decent quality, therein lies another snafu many fall into, to buy those cheaper mares and breed them to nicer stallions...hoping....).

As Chandler said, depending on your target buyer, your practices change a bit, but as mininik said, there are SO MANY pet quality being produced even by and out of Nationally titled, perfectly conformed horses, that why would it be targeted? A fast buck is what I'm figuring, and I'm guessing that a lot of these pet/novelty horses end up being tossed aside when the novelty wears off as they learn they won't be able to be competitive at shows, maybe not big enough or correct enough to drive, not that there isn't a market for a well loved pet, just that it is limited.

Anyway, I do see a market for well-bred and promoted horses, though it appears there is quite a booming trade in the "pet" quality (I use the term loosely, not trying to be derogatory, just trying to point out that they are likely not going to make it in the show ring for whatever reason, or just don't have papers) as I know one "mill" type breeder in this area was bragging about their sales numbers, and having seen their stock, it's shocking to me.

Liz
 
Good post Chandler!

I had a conversation with a dog breeder the other day and she gave me alot of food for thought. She said, 'If all dog breeders were truly honest, the majority of the puppies they produce regardless of quality will end up in a pet home."

I had to think about that, but she's right with dogs, and I do think that is true for minis too. Not everyone shows (for whatever reason) and those that do show, not everyone has National aspirations.

This doesn't excuse breeding wonky, bad tempered, ill conformed minis (or dogs), but realistically regardless if you have 2-3 foals or 30 foals how many (if you don't show them yourself) are sold to show homes?

Another thing she said was, take a look at the parents of your dog, and if you don't like it - imagine produce a whole litter that looks just like!" That makes made me think. Horses we only get one per breeding, but yikes if it's the stallion and you don't like his parents!
 
Another EXCELLENT reason to breed to outside stallions is the fact that you get FREE advertising in the form of their promotion and showing of their stallion!Your stock will sell that much more easily if you were to have foals by him
One would think that to be true but in our case was not. ( I know you said easier but I'm talking dollars in our case). Two of our horses that were bred to big time advertised shown stallions were priced by or resold by bigger farms for 4 times more than what we could have gotten. Others through the years (since 1986) were priced by resellers for double or more than what we could get. Through the years we've bred to some outside stallions thinking we could get more money for the foals but they sold for no more than the foals from our own stallions. Having limited funds to show & advertise will not get the higher prices that the farms can that advertise & show a lot......... We have stayed small with quality & well known bloodlines with 3-4 foals a year.... We decided it was time to do our part & not continue to add to the problem of overproduction. We have one mare due this year.................. There is a market for more affordable priced horses for families as pets but this should not mean inferior horses. People are going to breed what they have & I have seen many that should not be allowed to reproduce period............. The way I see it is, at the rate the breeding is going lots of people are going to have their pick of show quality horses for backyard pets. What becomes of the truly pet quality is not a good picture to imagine.
 
One of the unique aspects of the miniature horse breed is that they are easy to keep and it isn't hard to maintain a stallion. Imagine all the "backyard breeders" if they had to deal with full sized stallions and raging hormones. You would see far more geldings out there. Because of this there isn't the market for standing a stallion or sending mares out to be bred. Yes, the top breeders do stand stallions and send mares out but most people breeding minis have their own stallion. Cheap to keep, no stud fees or reproductive costs. Throw em in together and 11 months later you have a foal.

I have been involved with several different registries and the statistics show that only about 10% of registered horses are used for show purposes. That leaves 90% for pleasure, pets, ect. Which group are you marketing with your breeding program? The old saying of "the cream always rises to the top" is true in the horse world. Even in times when the market falls out in the horse industry the "cream" has always maintained their value. It is a waste of my time and resources to produce horses that sell for $1000 or less.

Many people are more than happy to sell their horses in that price range. Where is the quality in the horses that fall into this category? In the toilet, and this is the breeding stock that many use in their programs.

The market is only as good as the quality of horses out there for sale. If we are responsible breeders and only breed horses that are an improvement for the breed then the market will hold and we will still produce pet quality foals as not all breedings will produce the next national champion.

So I ask again, what percentage are you marketing in your breeding program?
 
The large horse industry has its share of backyard breeders that put little or no thought into what type of animal they are producing but fortunately for them there are far more people intimidated by their size and so they have a little less of it than we Miniature people do. Due to their small stature Minis just don't frighten people into thinking twice about breeding them - they don't get beyond how much fun it would be to have a cute little baby. EDUCATION is what is needed here. We need, as an industry, to educate the public about how these tiny horses are indeed horses and need to be handled as such. Just from reading posts on here about people having trouble with colts that are coming into maturity and also from personal experience as a trainer getting "problem" horses in to be straightened out I know there are thousands of people out there that own Miniatures that have no idea on how to handle a horse. Our club here in Ontario, the MHCO, has been taking advantage of every opportunity we can to educate the public on Miniatures by attending as many educational public gatherings as possible as well as accepting non-horse owners that are interested in Minis into our club which holds informational clinics and Fun Days. We need to encourage as many people as possible to learn about Minis BEFORE jumping into owning and breeding them.
 
Well, everyone also needs to be realistic and understand that no matter how professional their presentation of their horses is one simply cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear so their horses market value will have to reflect that.
default_wacko.png
: What's more, why so many in this breed think they have to have their own mediocre breeding stallion(s) is beyond me.
default_rolleyes.gif
: Breed your mares to outside stallions who not only have it in them to WIN but also to PRODUCE. GELD, GELD, GELD!!! This industry needs to get it together to seriously promote GELDINGS. Also, this may come as a real "shocker," but just because she has a uterus does NOT mean that mare needs to (or should) be bred. :new_shocked: IMO there will always be enough pet quality horses being produced by show horse producers to where there needn't be a bunch of breeders focusing on producing "pets"...
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HERE, HERE!!!!! :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

I truely believe that alot of people who get into mini's, were not horse people to begin with. They may have always had a love of horses and got into mini's because they are easier to handle ect... I also believe alot of folks, again not true horse folks, got into mini's thinking there was alot of profit in the foals, (I've been in the equine industry for 40 years, but in the mini's since 1990, but I do remember when a pet quality colt foal would cost $2500 and up) so if it has a uterus breed it! and if it has a set of testicles breed it!! :no: hence forth the low tail sets, awful back ends,u- necks, crooked back legs, less than acceptable tie ins ect... again, I believe one of the reasons we have so many mediocre stallions out there breeding medioce mares is because alot of folks don't recognise what proper conformation is, let alone how to breed for it. They don't understand it's not just that good conformation makes a prettier horse... but the better the conformation, the sounder the animal
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: It's the same in the dog world. The bitch has papers..... breed it :no: the puppies from a litter can make you money, quality be darned, inherited weaknesses be darned:wacko: Oh well.... JMO!! :lol:
 
Chandler great post ! Very well said

Happy Easter

Anita

Little Texas Miniature Horses

Sulphur Springs TX
 
It is a waste of my time and resources to produce horses that sell for $1000 or less...................Where is the quality in the horses that fall into this category? In the toilet, and this is the breeding stock that many use in their programs
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We have this yearling priced at $1,000. Alvadars Double Destiny & Komoko Little King Supreme bloodlines... Some of the best (bloodlines) in my opinion. If his quality is in the toilet because of the price then I need to update myself on conformation & bloodlines........ It is not worth it to keep this horse around for years to try to get more $$$$'s if we are not going to use him in our breeding program. We would rather get him into a caring home rather than trying to wait & make more money.

Pictures taken in 05

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Edited to add ( bloodlines ) in parens above
 
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I was recently asked by a women if 2 1/2 was old enough to breed her mare. When I asked her what she wanted to get, she replied just another mini to have as a pet.

I asked her if she had considered just buying a weanling? The cost would probably be the same and she wouldn't risk the life of her mare which was a very loved pet. I think she left thinking more about why she wanted to breed vs just getting a weanling.
 
I know this is a very touchy subject and there are many different views and opinions. But to be honest, how many of the big time breeders on this forum started out as back yard breeders with only one or two horses, just to decide you wanted to make a living off of it? Is it fair to continuously criticize other people for doing the exact same thing that many of the people here also did? Everyone started out somewhere, and to be honest, "I" could make a killing (become a huge breeder) in my area if I ever decided to become a breeder. There is not many miniatures in my town, period, and all it would take is some advertisement and introduction to the breed. However, I do feel that it is easier to let someone else handle the heartache and hassel of it. Some of you are always stressing how normal people shouldn't risk their mare's life for a foal. So since you guys do it, am I to assume that you don't value your mare's life? That you care more about the foal that may or may not be born healthy? I have read that many of you breed the same mare consistantly every year, because that is how nature intended and if they were in the wild, that is what would happen. Your mare isn't in the wild, and with everytime you breed her, you risk losing her. This makes it seem like the money or chance of producing something better is more valuable in your eyes, then the mare you proclaim to love dearly.

Not everyone is out for quality. Like someone said, only 10% of minis are shown, therefore there is still 90% that are normal horses. I don't think that everyone wants a top notch horse, or one that is going to win at shows. It seems like the horse owners I know, aren't very picky about the horses they have, but love them anyways. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, not in how much the horse is worth. Do you know how many mutt dogs there are out there, but they still find wonderful homes because people who want a "dog" has them? Pedigree isn't everything to everyone!!! It amazes me how most of the people on this forum look down on the minis that aren't champion material.

I think a lot of the people on this forum can't get past the part that not everyone shows, and therefore assume quality is always the number one issue for most normal people who want a horse. I'm here to say, that just isn't the case. I have seen some horses on local websites selling for $1,000, that are much more beautiful than the horses shown on here that are greatly bragged about. When I read the threads on here and about wanting the best for the breed, I think of the people who wants to slaughter all the mustangs because they are an unpure breed and are considered at the bottom of the horse chain. I would pick a mustang over an arabian anyday, because they have a lot more spirit and heart. They may not be as beautiful, but they are a lot more sturdy. I don't understand your fascination on everyone elses miniature horses and what normal people are doing with them. Perhaps you should start concentrating on your own minis and choosing better breeding material yourselves, because there sure seems to be a lot of issues with some of the foals born from top breeders on this site. JMHO.

By the way, Cathy H's mini is very beautiful and worth every penny of that $1,000! He has wonderful lines in his pedigree. If you are so concerned about the market, why doesn't EVERYONE who sells colts, geld before selling them? Then there would be a lot less to worry/complain about! And to be honest, if I was to start breeding, why would I spend $500+ to have someone elses horse cover mine, when I could raise a stallion that I would be honored to have offspring from?
 
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...horses that sell for $1000 or less.Many people are more than happy to sell their horses in that price range. Where is the quality in the horses that fall into this category? In the toilet, and this is the breeding stock that many use in their programs.
"quality" seems to be a funny thing. When I was starting out in Minis I visited a lot of farms. Some of them were big name farms with big name horses, some were small farms with big name "well bred" horses, and some were small farms with nice horses but nothing big name. One thing I noticed was that some of the big name farms were selling horses for big prices, yet those high priced horses were not what I considered quality. They had fancy pedigrees, but many sported some gosh-awful conformation faults. I couldn't afford their prices, and I wouldn't have wanted those horses if I could afford them! Some of the smaller farms had bought some of these horses from the big name farms, and because they paid high prices for their breeding stock they were saying they had to ask big bucks for their horses. They had $3000 horses with fancy prefixes that I wouldn't have offered $500 for...and if I had that same horse for sale, because I'm a little nobody breeder, I'd be lucky to get $500 for it. Sooo, if I had that horse offered at $500, the quality would be in the toilet (which I couldn't argue with in the case of the horses I'm thinking of here) but because a big name farm has the horse offered at $3000 or more....it's better quality? Or the guy down the road who is raising some nice horses but doesn't have the name and reputation to be "somebody" offers a decent quality colt for $800...he's automatically got toilet-quality stock & is doing more harm to the breed than the big guy who lives the other way down the road & has low quality horses with plenty of big name prefixes in the pedigrees, plus he's got the gift to gab & could sell igloos to eskimoes, and he's duping people into buying his conformationally incorrect horses for big bucks???
Price, unfortunately, doesn't always reflect quality. Big farms don't = quality in all cases, and little farms don't = no quality in all cases, but in most cases big farms do = big prices. Buyers seem to go for the big names, even if they are buying low quality. Sure, a big name farm may have produced oodles of national champions, but that doesn't mean that all of the horses they produce have the quality to be national champions, and it is possible for a small "unknown" farm to have national quality--but buyers do need to be able to judge horses in order to see this...

I see so many Mini people that cannot judge quality & conformation and I am shocked at the number of buyers who buy strictly on the seller's sales pitch. I can't be bothered with sales pitches--I mostly tune them out when they're given to me, & I surely can't be bothered to give one to prospective buyers. I actually don't have horses for sale at the moment; I bought the stock I like & any foals I raise are for my own use, driving, showing, pets...if I offer one for sale & it doesn't sell, that's quite all right, I didn't get into Miniatures to try and make money off them, I just downsized into some little horses that I like & enjoy.
 
l don't find it's a waste of my time and resources to produce horses that sell for $1000 or less. l also don't feel we produce horses that are in the toliet though l've heard some say we do. We have our share of real pets for various reasons beyound our control like everyone else we give away to good homes or only ask 100/200 for. l've been told and called many things by other breeders but what business is it of there's to tell me what l should breed for when l already found l enjoy what l do produce. We are and always well be a backyard breeder if thats what you want to call it...we or rather l enjoy the title as l'm not trying to be better or outdo some else and l sure in the heck don't have visions of making money or the need to go far in the ring. For all you's that complain so much about low prices just make sure YOU have the best and the rest should take care of itself if that's the case. We enjoy the mini for what they are have our fools each year to love on what more can you ask when thats what gives satisfaction. We are not ashamed of raising pets we take to shows and sell for next to nothing... beauty is in the eye money is in the mind. Go ahead flame l'm out of the closet and not ashamed to admit l AM A HAPPY BACKYARD BREEDER and have no shame. Here is what you get for $1000 or less these were stallions at the time of sale now geldings mares and fillies are priced the same.

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