Mini in cart to whoa and stand still

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No he was trained at age 3 not 2. He was 3 when I got him. I agree, I'm going to take him to a trainer in a couple of weeks. Thanks.

You say that he's only 4 now...you've had him since last July and when you got him he had been driving for a year. That means he was started as a 2-year-old...

That's awfully young for any horse to start being driven, and some horses mature later than others.

I think he's way too young to give up on. You need an experienced trainer to at least evaluate him, and he may well need to be started from the beginning.

I'm glad you brought that up, when I go to the barn and put him in his halter and reins I'm going to look at his blinders and see if their to close I NEVER thought of that. You brought up a VERY good point. Thanks so much. Oh trust me I work him out BEFORE I harness him. I learned that w/ big horses, I NEVER rode my horse till I lunged her same w/ my mini I don't do anything w/ him till he gets worked out. Gets the hibby gibby's out of him, HA...... He's a nervous ninny as it is I can't imagine if I didn't work him out.

I have a horse who is just getting started in driving in the show ring and he's not a big fan on standing still in the cart. He is great on ground tie like yours.

Last show was his first to drive. He did beautifully on the gaits but when it came time to stand still he did not want to. He'd keep turning around. A harness maker there and the judge said his blinders were to close together and he couldn't see. That may be your problem.

Also what I've been doing to train him is work him with alot of trotting, get a good workout before practicing whoa. Then see if he'll stand for a few seconds. If so praise him excitedly and then have him walk off. If he dances around, tell him, 'quit, bad boy' and drive him around, do trotting get some more good work out and try whoa again. The point is to teach him that stopping is a good thing, he gets to rest not work. Today he stopped and stood still beautifully! Let us know how everything goes with yours.
 
Here's my fix:

Its worked for me on a mini gelding, stallion and mare and numerous large horses here goes.........

Lounge line, say WHOA when horse WHOAs walk up to them and give them a deep scratch on the wither and tell them GOOOOOOD, everytime you tell them whoa if they stand still, walk up and give them a scratch and say GOOOOD. Never met a horse yet that wouldn't stand still for a good scratch. If they move say WHOA again and wait for them to stand still and then reward. BE CONSISTENT EVERY TIME.

You need to build trust, putting a flight animal in a corner, or partially blocking their view is not building trust, they have to learn to trust you beyond anything external so in an emergency situation they know that when you say WHOA they are going to a good place with a wither scratch and a comforting GOOOD.

If nothing else horses teach us PATIENCE. Good Luck!

Edited to add

I also do like Keri does and all my horses are tied when they get a bath for up to 2 hours to dry, they are all tied so they can see each other etc, I NEVER leave incase of a "situation".

Something else I remembered NEVER EVER finish a training session in cart with a whoa and then immediately get out of the cart mine usually stand for 4 or 5 minutes with me shifting around a little and then its a scratch on the withers when I do get out.

WHOA is boring but THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU WILL TEACH A HORSE.
 
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Well I'm going to see if I put him in his halter w/ reins and see if he whoa's and eleminate one thing at a time. Then try what you said. I'm also going to get a trainer cause this is all so over whelming for me, it's to big for me to do alone. Thanks.

You could try tying him up (using the halter) with the harness on (straps up safely) and let him stand with it on while your close by. Get him use to the feel of it. Just throw the harness on every chance you get. Even if its just for a few miniutes while you clean out the stalls. Maybe let him eat his supper with it on. Lunge and free lunge him in his harness.

I'd try removing the blinders too. Some horse get real nervous having thier normal site limited.

If things seem better w/o blinders, be sure to do alot of ground driving with someone pulling the cart all around him and alot behind him. You don't want him to freak out seeing the cart cashing him.

Best of luck!

Please keep us updated on his progress.

Yes, I'm going to have to keep him out of the cart, HA for "my" safety that's for sure. I'm going to go back to the longreining and get a trainer to look at him too and like I said in another reply I do lunge him before I do anything w/ him.

Thanks for your advice. and I am big on praise w/ my horses. I do love them and I love to give the kudo's when they do good. I'm VERY "OH GOOD BOY" w/ scrathes type stuff so they KNOW they did good.

Sometimes I get so excited that they did good I cry and kiss them :)

You've got lots of great advice here, I guess I relate as my horse is a horse that can tend toward nervousness(and panic!) when he doesn't understand what I am asking of him and if he isn't comfortable with the situation.

I totally agree with what everyone has said and go back to longreining until you are completely comfortable that your lovely guy understands everything, including that stopping and standing still is okay and not only ok but a good thing too.

This may sound odd but I find that when I'm long reining a horse that doesn't want to stand still make stopping not just about stopping if you know what I mean. Give it a reason or purpose.

Stop and relax if he dances around just ignore him, stay calm and give him the whoa signal and don't give up, when he stops make sure you release all pressure, give him a scratch, praise him, let him relax in that position. Turn stopping and standing still into a positive thing, hes gets a nice scratch and a moment to relax, I think the most important thing is that you relax too, take a breath, enjoy the scenery then, when all is calm gently ask him to move off. Do you lunge him before you harness him up? You might find this takes a the edge off him a bit if he gets a change to get out some of that energy before you go.

I found with my horse also when I harness him up and get ready to go, that just because we have the harness on doesn't mean its time to go, I purposefully fluff around, I put it on, then give him a scratch, then adjust a few things, pick up the reins, put them down, scratch him again, wait till he relaxs and then gently say ok lets move off. Sometimes I put the gear on him, fluff around and take it off, just so he doesn't think everytime it goes on "oh we're off"

Its a long slow process but once you get him to relax and realise everything is okay you'll be on the up and up. But I would say don't go anywhere near the cart until you have got him completely happy longreining so you can both stay safe.

There are alot more expericenced people here than me, but this is what I have found works for me, and the most important thing I would suggest is that you are in an extremely relaxed frame of mind and take everything super slow.

Oh and don't be afraid to turn him out, he won't forget everything and maybe come back to it when hes matured a little bit. Good luck!

Anna
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Thanks I'm glad someone sees the red flags, you all have been so helpful and I sincerely apprecite it. I keep trying to tell my husband that something is NOT right w/ this horse something is off. He knows whoa cause he does it out of the harness perfectly otherwise.

Yes, I'm taking him to see a trainer in a couple of weeks. This horse is a NERVOUS wreck in harness I kid you not. A. he's not meant to be in harness, or B. someone else suggested his blinders are to close, and he needs professional help. Like I told my husband "he should love to drive" and he doesn't he hates it.

It's like he sees that harness coming and I can just see the wheels turning in his head and see the dread on his face. I put the harness on and he starts dancing all over the place.

It's hard cause I'm new at this so it's hard for me to pin point too. I can only go by what he does and what I see and guess by that. But, for months now it's been driving me NUTS cause he hasn't been getting any better just worse. I work him and work him and still nothing. I really feel sorry for him.

Yes, could you send me a link of where to get a harness w/o the blinders. I'm headed out to the barn right now and going to try him in his halter and reins and see IF he whoa's w/ just that. It will tell me if it's the harness or not. That will deduce it.

Thanks for your help and advice appreciate it.

You've had some good advice but since we are not there, and cannot see what is going on, and YOU have to deal with this, this is my two cents.

He should not be slobbering all the time...something is wrong, there, he just should not be doing this.

He should not be jiggling around all the time, this is not normal, he should not be ding this.

He should not be nervous in harness, a harness horse may be on it's toes, it may be full of itself, but it is not nervous, he should not be acting this way.

There are three HUGE red flags, right there.

My guess, and it is a guess since I have not seen him, is that he is not, in fact Harness Trained.

He may well be harness broke...define "broke"

I would seriously advise you to get expert help- even if you can only get an expert out once, to look, poke around and give advise, it would be money and time well spent.

When I start a horse I do not do so until they are at least three, before that, sorry folks, here I go again, BUT before that they are not old enough, mentally and physically, to pull a cart.

End of story as far as I am concerned.

Your horse is absolutely typical of "Tinker Ponies" I have bought in the past, force fed a load of information before they were old enough to understand it.

Some grew up OK but a lot, a serious number, grew into their strength as they turned four or five, and rebelled.

Some were downright dangerous, but these were big, cob animals- what are now called "gypsy vanners" and they were very strong.

Minis can be abused without any cruelty truly being involved merely because of their size.

Take a two year old gelding and a big man and a cart...well, how much fighting, especially with the addition of blinders (well named) and a "Check" (UGH, see my signature!!) do you think would happen??

I reckon you could have a two year old actually driving round the field in around half an hour under those circumstances!!!!

Now, if this is what actually happened then it would explain an awful lot.

Go back to absolute basics and work on teaching your boy that being in a cart is lots and LOTS of serious FUN.

Teach him to enjoy it.

Assume he has never been bitted properly, and get the bit checked, and his teeth checked.....get everything checked!!
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Teach him to go forward onto the bit and to not fear coming up onto it...and throw away the check if you are using one, they have no place as a training aid, especially not on a horse with these problems.

Get a bridle without blinders- I can get you a link if you wish.

DO NOT DRIVE HIM IN THE CART...OK??

If you ignore EVERYTHING that I have said, PLEASE for the sake of your own safety, listen to this bit of advise, as it could save your life.

I am just on the verge of starting a two year old colt I bred...he will be loose schooled, taught the basics of groundwork and maybe, MAYBE, at the end of the year I might see if he is OK about a cart...personally I doubt it.

This colt is built like a brick outhouse, and could pull my weight without a problem.

Next year is fine, though.

Next year he will be ready.

Thanks, a lot of people have given this advice and I do agree, I think the open blinders would help.

quote name='evedex' date='Apr 14 2008, 05:47 AM' post='1003063']

If your horse won't stand when ground driven, he isn't ready to be in the cart at all!

I cannot stress enough that WHOA is one of your most important gaits....SAFETY FIRST! If he won't whoa with blinders on, try training him in an open bridle first then move on to blinders when you have a solid WHOA and STAND.

When you finally get him driving DO NOT ask him to back up for a long, long time. Often the anxiety of having to push the cart back will keep a horse from wanting to stop. They cannot see backwards and you are asking him to walk into a heavy object behind him and push it...not a natural thing. Since you stop before a reverse...if he doesn't stop, he doesn't have to reverse....so take your time getting to that point.

But do a LOT more ground work with him. Your trainer was hired to get him driving in a finite time and I am afraid they rushed the job...take him back to basics and take as many weeks/months as you need before you ever introduce the cart again.

JMHO
 
I just went out and tried the halter w/ the reins behind him. He stopped perfectly. I said whoa, he whoad.

SO it's the bridle of the harness that's giving him fits. This Sat. I'm taking him to see someone and I'll have them look at his bridle and see if that's the problem then I'll have the trainer take a look at it too.

I'm hoping Sat they'll be a trainer where I'm going. Hopefully, someone should know where the blinders should be and where the caveson should be at etc. Like I said I'm new so maybe some other things are amiss too. Thanks you all for your help. I'll keep you posted IF I solve the problem.

Thanks I'm glad someone sees the red flags, you all have been so helpful and I sincerely apprecite it. I keep trying to tell my husband that something is NOT right w/ this horse something is off. He knows whoa cause he does it out of the harness perfectly otherwise.

Yes, I'm taking him to see a trainer in a couple of weeks. This horse is a NERVOUS wreck in harness I kid you not. A. he's not meant to be in harness, or B. someone else suggested his blinders are to close, and he needs professional help. Like I told my husband "he should love to drive" and he doesn't he hates it.

It's like he sees that harness coming and I can just see the wheels turning in his head and see the dread on his face. I put the harness on and he starts dancing all over the place.

It's hard cause I'm new at this so it's hard for me to pin point too. I can only go by what he does and what I see and guess by that. But, for months now it's been driving me NUTS cause he hasn't been getting any better just worse. I work him and work him and still nothing. I really feel sorry for him.

Yes, could you send me a link of where to get a harness w/o the blinders. I'm headed out to the barn right now and going to try him in his halter and reins and see IF he whoa's w/ just that. It will tell me if it's the harness or not. That will deduce it.

Thanks for your help and advice appreciate it.

You've had some good advice but since we are not there, and cannot see what is going on, and YOU have to deal with this, this is my two cents.

He should not be slobbering all the time...something is wrong, there, he just should not be doing this.

He should not be jiggling around all the time, this is not normal, he should not be ding this.

He should not be nervous in harness, a harness horse may be on it's toes, it may be full of itself, but it is not nervous, he should not be acting this way.

There are three HUGE red flags, right there.

My guess, and it is a guess since I have not seen him, is that he is not, in fact Harness Trained.

He may well be harness broke...define "broke"

I would seriously advise you to get expert help- even if you can only get an expert out once, to look, poke around and give advise, it would be money and time well spent.

When I start a horse I do not do so until they are at least three, before that, sorry folks, here I go again, BUT before that they are not old enough, mentally and physically, to pull a cart.

End of story as far as I am concerned.

Your horse is absolutely typical of "Tinker Ponies" I have bought in the past, force fed a load of information before they were old enough to understand it.

Some grew up OK but a lot, a serious number, grew into their strength as they turned four or five, and rebelled.

Some were downright dangerous, but these were big, cob animals- what are now called "gypsy vanners" and they were very strong.

Minis can be abused without any cruelty truly being involved merely because of their size.

Take a two year old gelding and a big man and a cart...well, how much fighting, especially with the addition of blinders (well named) and a "Check" (UGH, see my signature!!) do you think would happen??

I reckon you could have a two year old actually driving round the field in around half an hour under those circumstances!!!!

Now, if this is what actually happened then it would explain an awful lot.

Go back to absolute basics and work on teaching your boy that being in a cart is lots and LOTS of serious FUN.

Teach him to enjoy it.

Assume he has never been bitted properly, and get the bit checked, and his teeth checked.....get everything checked!!
default_wink.png


Teach him to go forward onto the bit and to not fear coming up onto it...and throw away the check if you are using one, they have no place as a training aid, especially not on a horse with these problems.

Get a bridle without blinders- I can get you a link if you wish.

DO NOT DRIVE HIM IN THE CART...OK??

If you ignore EVERYTHING that I have said, PLEASE for the sake of your own safety, listen to this bit of advise, as it could save your life.

I am just on the verge of starting a two year old colt I bred...he will be loose schooled, taught the basics of groundwork and maybe, MAYBE, at the end of the year I might see if he is OK about a cart...personally I doubt it.

This colt is built like a brick outhouse, and could pull my weight without a problem.

Next year is fine, though.

Next year he will be ready.

Thanks, a lot of people have given this advice and I do agree, I think the open blinders would help.

quote name='evedex' date='Apr 14 2008, 05:47 AM' post='1003063']

If your horse won't stand when ground driven, he isn't ready to be in the cart at all!

I cannot stress enough that WHOA is one of your most important gaits....SAFETY FIRST! If he won't whoa with blinders on, try training him in an open bridle first then move on to blinders when you have a solid WHOA and STAND.

When you finally get him driving DO NOT ask him to back up for a long, long time. Often the anxiety of having to push the cart back will keep a horse from wanting to stop. They cannot see backwards and you are asking him to walk into a heavy object behind him and push it...not a natural thing. Since you stop before a reverse...if he doesn't stop, he doesn't have to reverse....so take your time getting to that point.

But do a LOT more ground work with him. Your trainer was hired to get him driving in a finite time and I am afraid they rushed the job...take him back to basics and take as many weeks/months as you need before you ever introduce the cart again.

JMHO
 
The only thing I worry about with the bridle Jane showed, is that there is potential for the noseband to be sitting far too low. Make sure your noseband sits fairly high on your horse's face, you can see it in this picture:

watergallop.jpg


Photo by Leia Gibson

It mustn't be sitting low enough to be on the soft parts of the horse's nose.

I think Leia's suggestion that you post some photos of your guy with his gear on would help us determine if your equipment is fitting your horse correctly. I am glad you are connecting with a trainer, one of the best moves you could make!
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Thanks Jane and I will talk to the trainer about it too. But I think I read in the rules when you show you MUST have the blinders on.

Taylor, thank God for sensible people like you, you really do make a horses life a lot easier!!

I really congratualte you on picking this up and wantig to set it straight

This a riding bridle by MiniExpress that would look fine in a cart

http://www.miniexpress.com/images/bridles/398_vert.jpg


I'd have to make sure it didn't go low enough that's for sure. But, I'm sure it can have holes added to it. he's got a long face though. I don't know how to go about doing the picture thing. I'm lucky I got this down..... I see where it say's insert image. Let me go put the harness on. I won't put it all on him, just the saddle and the bridle. Thanks.

The only thing I worry about with the bridle Jane showed, is that there is potential for the noseband to be sitting far too low. Make sure your noseband sits fairly high on your horse's face, you can see it in this picture:

watergallop.jpg


Photo by Leia Gibson

It mustn't be sitting low enough to be on the soft parts of the horse's nose.

I think Leia's suggestion that you post some photos of your guy with his gear on would help us determine if your equipment is fitting your horse correctly. I am glad you are connecting with a trainer, one of the best moves you could make!
default_aktion033.gif
 
Glad your making some headway on the problem!

Are you planning on showing at breed shows?

At our local shows I've seen a few mini's and ponies driven w/o blinders.

But these are mainly 4-H type shows.

I've been to a few breed shows and it just amazed me how poorly some horses where harnessed.

One lady had a beautiful Flashy Paint driving with NO type of breast collar or traces - cart was only attached by the saddle. :DOH!

I missed the class they showed in but over-heard that she was disqualified. I so wanted to say something to her in the practice arena but I was a new driver, what did I know,lol. She was from a BIG farm, and had an awesome turnout. I couldn't believe anyone let her in the ring like that.(this was a big shetland btw. not a mini)

Good Luck!

Post pics. when you can.
 
Mostly AMHR, AMHA's are to far away. Well I just got in the house and YOUR NOT going to believe it.

I think I solved the problem or most of it anyway. A. It was the BLINDERS!!!!!! I fixed the blinders, pulled them out some, and a friend told me to check his bit. I dropped it down one and he QUIT fighting the bit and very little slobbering. He was like a different horse. I said whoa and he whoa'd. I was like, Oh MY GOD!!!! THANK YOU JESUS and who all told me this!!!!!! I NEVER would have guessed it in 100 years and I don't know if anyone else would have picked up it. Maybe the trainer but, I had to go out there and check it I couldn't wait till Sat to have someone else check it. He was so calm and acted like hey this is no big deal he stood there calmly and my husband and I talked. Now the test will be will he stand and whoa w/ the cart now that I have one problem solved. I'll try that tomorrow, of course here weather permitting.

HA... I can't believe it. All cause the horse couldn't see. Thank you ALL so very much.... I'll let you know how the cart goes. A big hug to you all.....

Glad your making some headway on the problem!

Are you planning on showing at breed shows?

At our local shows I've seen a few mini's and ponies driven w/o blinders.

But these are mainly 4-H type shows.

I've been to a few breed shows and it just amazed me how poorly some horses where harnessed.

One lady had a beautiful Flashy Paint driving with NO type of breast collar or traces - cart was only attached by the saddle. :DOH!

I missed the class they showed in but over-heard that she was disqualified. I so wanted to say something to her in the practice arena but I was a new driver, what did I know,lol. She was from a BIG farm, and had an awesome turnout. I couldn't believe anyone let her in the ring like that.(this was a big shetland btw. not a mini)

Good Luck!

Post pics. when you can.
 
Hehehehe!!
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Well, maybe nobody local would have guessed it in a hundred years but everybody here did! That's why LB is such a great place- there's lots and lots of experience on this board. It's also why we usually ask for pictures. It's hard, as a new driver, to know for sure if your equipment is actually correct and it can cause a lot of problems when it's not.

Congratulations on your success!
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Leia
 
Well it pays to take your problem to people that's for sure. I've been so over burdened by it and SOOO depressed and was like so ready to give up. I'll actually be able to sleep tonight w/o dreaming about it.

I've been eating, dreaming, sleeping, it. It was just taking over my life all consumed that this horse would not whoa and stand still. He was doing soooo WELL in show halter for me and I couldn't understand how he could be one way yet another. Simply amazing. I was going to do the pic but resolved the problem, now w/ the cart, LOL!!!!! Have a good day....

Hehehehe!!
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Well, maybe nobody local would have guessed it in a hundred years but everybody here did! That's why LB is such a great place- there's lots and lots of experience on this board. It's also why we usually ask for pictures. It's hard, as a new driver, to know for sure if your equipment is actually correct and it can cause a lot of problems when it's not.

Congratulations on your success!
default_cheers.gif


Leia
 

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