Locking stifle joint

[K&H Miniatures]

he was severely clubbed all around yes rolling the toe does help but there was no rolling done in this instance. it is correctable and If I had mini mares I wouldn't be afraid to breed to this stud. ok nuff said from me and I will do everything in my power to correct it. anyone who has tried to type on forums from a cell has my respect. fat fingers and little keys. lol

Thanks Dawn. You know more about what is actually going on with him than me. I know you will take care of him for me to the best of your ability. He is in good hands. With your help, and daily exercise he is going to be one great horse. Well, he already is that, but he has been hurting and can be better.

 

[user 488]

Look at your horse in the side view in above photo and do a comparison. I am not making any judgments here, just posting a diagram so you can come to your own conclusion about what others have been talking about on this thread. Hope you figure it out and get him comfortable.

 

[K&H Miniatures]

This is the last thing I am going to say about this for now. I will post later on on how he is doing. The pictures above were taken before Dawn ever saw him. He has been trimmed now and is doing much better. I have figured it out. I am used to looking at angles and such on people. Thanks for the diagram. He is better really. I would not leave a horse or anything uncomfortable if I could help it. That is why I had Dawn look at him in the first place. I have come to a conclusion. Most would not agree and they are entitled to that. I am not going to remove him from the gene pool at this time and I am just not trying to make excuses. I will not post as often anymore, because almost everytime I have tried in the past it has not turned out necessarily great and almost always goes off subject. I appreciate this diagram though and some were actually helpful. I was only trying to get the best help for Duke possible. I am sorry that this has turned out the way that it has. I am putting my trust in Dawn and her experiences because she just simply makes sense to me when she is talking to me about it. She also understands when I am talking about my experiences as a PTA with "people" We, us and animals, are all God's creation. If something can mess our knees up, then I know it can on horses and it doesn't have to be genetic for us to have the problems. So, why is it almost always a genetic issue? I just don't see it. I have helped make braces and such to help correct damage done from an injury. I know the mechanics of a knee.

I will be doing some ROM on Duke as soon as he comes to know and trust me more. I just brought him home on Saturday. Thanks for those that have helped. Thanks especially to Dawn. Together we are going to get Duke back to as close to where he was before. Kristy

 

[Minimor]

I think you are overlooking some things in your comparisons between human knees and horses' stifles. I myself have bad knees, and yes, they are made worse by outside forces such as poor shoes, overexertion, wear & tear, whatever. However, none of these things make my knees lock up!

I don't think that anyone would deny that a bad trim (or long term bad trimming) will contribute to joint problems...but a locking stifle is rather in a class of its own, whether or not you choose to believe that. I grant you that by keeping a horse trimmed just so you can help to ward off incidences of locking, at least in many cases. Some cases are beyond that. If specific trimming works, that's great.

 

[Hosscrazy]

Carol -

I remember you posted the chart before, and thought it was valuable for people to see an actual visual aid - thanks for reposting!

Liz R.

 

[Charley]

I just brought him home on Saturday,

I have been very interested in causes of stifle lock also. But I am still not sure that it is hereditary every time. I was told by my vet that it could be caused by an injury and is hard to tell in every case. Interesting that it appears he had just been moved to a new home. Definitely has my mind open to the suggestion that having the wrong angle on his hooves and riding in a horse trailer could have contributed to this, hopefully temporary, stifle problem.

It does amaze me how many people band together to support their own conclusions and don't leave their minds open to maybe he was slightly injured and his hooves are not trimmed right; both things contributing to his stifle lock.

I'm glad that Duke is in a home where he will get the benefit of the doubt. I kinda have the impression that he will heal up just fine with the best of care that he is now receiving.

 

[disneyhorse]

From the pictures of the red roan horse (I am not clear this is the horse this thread is about) the horse has very straight stifles. This is a conformation issue which is hereditary and MAY cause locking stifles. I think this is what people are trying to explain.

Straight stifles and locking stifle are OFTEN (but not always) related.

Andrea

 

[HGFarm]

Mustangs who have lived in the wild all of their life, without any hoof trimming dont seem to have the problem, even after being run and rounded up, hauled in trailers to new locations, etc..... We have also rescued horses over the years, that had feet that were horribly out of balance, had not been trimmed in MONTHS if not years, were underfed, and just generally neglected all the way around- none of them had stifle problems, nor have any that I have seen that were taken in or rescued by others.

Not trusting my own lifetime experiences in all things, I try to learn from the folks who are supposed to be the experts- a vet (or two or three), other people's experiences with their horses and vets, actual articles written by folks who have studied the problem, etc....

I have seen toes left on horses that were so long they looked like skiis- they did not have stifle problems.

Here is some information found on the internet that might shed more light on this condition... There is much more information available but I notice that most of the articles are consistant with expressing that the condition should be diagnosed by a vet, with treatment prescribed as to the severity and cause of the reason. To second guess really would not do the horse any good. I think I would also want the conformation critiqued by someone like a vet, who is trained in what correct conformation should look like.

Joints in equines are similar to those in people- after all, tendons are tendons, but they are NOT the same, as some of the articles will describe, so what may be good for the goose, is not always good for the cat.

Hope the info here helps those that may have further questions regarding stifle issues.

http://www.horse-owners-world.co.uk/ailmen...ng_patella.html

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/a....php?aid=114610

http://www.horses-and-horse-information.co...0197stifl.shtml

http://thehorsedoctor.blogspot.com/2005/09...ixation-or.html

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10546

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-hea...he-patella.aspx

 

[Reijel's Mom]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in the arena. I think consulting with a vet is always a great idea - but I use a few different vets due to my location being sort of in the middle of nowhere. And on the stifle issue and many others - different vets are going to tell you different things.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Good diagrams Carol - always nice to actually see the side by side for comparision.

Kristy, he's a cute guy, wish you all the best with him.

I'll share with you, my favorite (out of 50+ Minis) - the 'last-to-leave-if-the-end-of-the-world-was-coming' horse - is to me absolutely gorgeous and perfect and I love her to pieces. BUT!!! But being the pragmatist I am, I am very realistic about how 'nice' she is compared to a show quality Mini! She's my ga-ga baby and always will be, but I do not delude myself or others into believing she's the second coming to the Mini world!!!

So enjoy your boys, please don't think anyone is trying to offend you. It's great you're working with them to get them to a comfortable state.

Please remember though, we're all here to help each other and learn by sharing our experiences. Many of us have very strong opinions on some subjects - okay alot of subjects - but many of us are very passionate about Minis and really want to see the breed overall improve and keep improving. So although most of us do not have a college degree in horse husbandry or animal science - there is alot of knowledge here! Practical on the job kind. Just sift through the opinions and look at the facts and remember what is said isn't meant to be an attack, but the written word can come across a bit harsh at times even when what is typed is meant to help not hurt.

 

[horseplay]

I have a feeling if you asked a dozen vets you would get 6 different answers on what caused your horse to lock. It sounds as though you plan to breed him, I hope you plan to tell any potential buyers of his offspring or anyone wishing to breed their mares to him that he has had issues with his stifles whether you think it is hereditary or not, even if trimming straightens him out. I as buyer would want to know this as I would not buy a foal who's sire had any stifle issues at any time. good luck he is a very pretty boy

 

[HGFarm]

Good advice horseplay... it should be disclosed I would not want to purchase an animal to breed or show knowing this was in the lines either. However, some folks don't care, which is one reason I guess it is such a problem with the Minis...........

 

[K&H Miniatures]

Good advice horseplay... it should be disclosed I would not want to purchase an animal to breed or show knowing this was in the lines either. However, some folks don't care, which is one reason I guess it is such a problem with the Minis...........

I said I wasn't going to get on here again, but "I DO CARE." I can't believe someone could actually say this here and now. You may have not meant that at me, but it came across that way just the same. I am a caring person and never want to lie to someone or mislead someone. I will always tell the truth. This whole post "mess" has me so upset that I just don't know what to say. Opinions are opinions. But I have to say that things could have been done in a much better way. Things could have said in a much more understanding helpful not judgemental way too. I obviously do CARE about him or I would not be trying to get help for him. It is not confirmation issue with him. You are entitled to have the belief that it is. Please respect my opinion as well. I have not necessarily decided to breed him either. Yes, maybe one day, but I wanted a horse I could love and show and care for. He can't help it that a farrier inexperienced with minis did this to him.

I thought this was supposed to be a helpful place. I will have to think not twice but several times before I start up another post again. I am sorry to have started this topic anyway now. If I feel he needs a vet then he will have one. I want to take care of my horses. Please do not imply that I DO NOT CARE because I may one day breed him. I would not want horses running around that had this issue because of confirmation. His is not. Please please be more considerate of others feelings in your posts. All of us need to be more considerate and really want to teach people and learn and not just assume things about someone you have never met. Kristy

 

[HGFarm]

No, as stated previously, I stated if you didnt care, you would not have posted. The comment was a general statement regarding the breed as a whole and the issue and why it keeps going on. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you asked the opinions of others as well. It appeared that when they were not what you wanted to hear, they were shot down and turned off as guessing, wrong, made up, etc....

Were any of the attached articles read, and your farrier, no matter who you choose to use, is not a licensed vet, who would be the expert on what is wrong with your horse.

I know you will do the best for him- it is obvious you love your horses, but you appeared very shut off to any other opinions. Sorry if you took it that way directed to you- but this is a big problem in the breed, and some folks out there truly do not care. I know of a couple close by me here that makes me sick when I see what they are breeding. And they listen to no one and keep on doing it.

 

[nootka]

I have only been reading this thread, but wanted to say that if the red roan colt is the one that you are thinking is not conformationally pre-disposed to stifle lock, I would implore you to think again.

He is quite straight behind, and sickle-hocked from the looks of it.

I am not saying to geld him, just hoping you'll have a look around at horse conformation before you close your eyes due to poor wording on this forum.

No one is singling you out (I do not even "know" you, but I applaud you for looking for information, and hope that you can find it in your heart to realize that yes, he IS built to lock up, and if he's built that way, his foals will be, or if they're not, it will be pure luck that they aren't.).

My thoughts are with you...(see the gelding in my avatar...he is pretty well "camped out" and though I hope he doesn't lock up, I suppose he could although he never has. I just knew he was not needed in the breeding world when I look at what "good" and "Sound" conformation is). It's not an easy thing to admit, but it is far easier than the heartbreak of having more problems down the road with babies.

Right now it's a known quantity...and I wish you the best of luck. Hopefully just keeping him trimmed properly will keep him sound. Others are not so lucky and it's sad to see one locking up. they simply don't understand why they are so limited.

Please accept the advice given here without hostility...no person here is trying to thwart your future breeding program, but rather to head off the tragedies many of us have seen firsthand in a genetic condition we closed our eyes to in our OWN ignorance and inexperience. That's all that I see here...

Another quick addition is that at least in halter, I think your little colt would end up not doing "so well" due to his hind leg angulation, but that is not to say that he could not do well at other things provided he's sound for it.

I am trying to be helpful in sharing information that I can see even in my very amateur observation, that it is more than a matter of opinion, his hind leg angles combined with what you've said about his condition prove that stifle lock is something he was made to have. The farrier trim may not have helped, but it didn't create the condition, only worsened it.

I am so sorry about that...I know how it feels to realize something like this. I do (and many of us do). I wish we could convey that to you without you feeling defensive.

Liz

 

[Marty]

K&H I just wanted to stop by and first say congratulations with your new little guy.

He is really a cute little thing and very colorful.

I think you are going to enjoy him a lot.

I happen to know Dawn is a pretty good farrier from what I hear as some of her clients are friends of mine.

But I will tell you a couple of things if you don't mind and please take it in the spirit which it is said.

This board has seen a lot of stifle problems more times than I can count so do keep an open mind that it is a possibility and don't get in denial as it is a problem in the breed. Certain members have a lot of experience on the subject and conformation and are trying to help. However it is not fair to assume whether or not your horse has a stifle problem as a vet has not even checked him out. But if he does, it's not the end of the world. It can be dealt with and this board will offer you support to get you through it if that is the case.

I know you have some knowledge of bone structure and how they fit together and work and I see you are trying to make some sense of the mechanics of the horse too but there is really no good comparison. Look at Carols charts. (She's the chart lady). Honestly, if this were my little guy, I would just take him to a very good well known hospital with great vets not mediocre vets and have the X rays done right away. Keep in mind that a lot of vets are very unfamiliar with the breed so do find a good one that has plenty of mini experience.

I think you are going to make a very good horse mommy and I want to wish you the best of luck in every way and much happiness with Duke in his years to come. Try not to worry. It will all work out.